Saying grace...

[crazyme5kids]

We don't say grace, but if others want to it doesn't bother me. My brother feels they way you do OP. I see nothing wrong with excussing yourself from the table either.

 

[auntpolly]

ok, sorry. i guess i misunderstood. i thought by saying not *just* you (as opposed to not you) you were including me in with people who were "creeped out" by blessings.

i guess i can't give a generic answer. so much of how i feel is situation specific. here are some examples:

1) if someone in my family is sick and someone who does not know i am an atheist says that they are praying for me, i will take it in the spirit it is offered - a nicety. i am glad that they are taking the time to do something like that, but it doesn't make me feel better on a spiritual level because i do not believe in the power of prayer. so i am not indifferent to it on the nicety level, but i am indifferent to it on the religious level.

2) if someone who knows i am an atheist continuously makes religious comments to me on purpose to get me to "see the error of my ways", i feel annoyed and angry.

3) most of my encounters with religion are not personal like the first two examples. most of them are me just being somewhere and someone making some kind of general religious commentary/blessing/ceremony. i do not get offended by these, nor am i happy about them. i am indifferent to them. if they are particularly over the top, i might do an inward eyeroll or think "wow that's sort of over the top." but generally, i do not pay any attention to them and they don't affect me in any way.

Oh, I totally get if you don't get anything spiritual from it.

I am really fascinated by religion and have friends that practice all kinds of them. I think it's the coolest thing when I get to participate somehow in their customs -- maybe that's why I have a hard time understanding why this is even an issue.

 

[orljustin]

I disagree wholeheartedly. There are "signs" and I wasn't talking stereotypes either.

Who the heck has itineraries for a get together anyway?

Your schedule analogy is pretty silly.

The itinerary thing is not meant to be taken literally.

 

[auntpolly]

Since you're asking anyone, I'll chime in. The answer is it depends - in general everyday life (ie. shopping, walking down the street, doing things with my kids) I am slightly irritated / offended if some random person says to me "God Bless You" I consider it unnecessary and rude. They don't know me and I can't imagine why the guy at Sams Club feels some need to bless me - do I look as if I need help? I can't explain it well but it's just a tiny bit offensive and in no way do I consider it a nice gesture.

As for your examples, somehow those wouldn't bother me. As unfair as it may seem, my issue stems from the christian attitude that they are not only the majority in the country but that everyone must be one too. I am so sick of the christian right trying to legislate their religious beliefs that I instictively feel uncomfortable.

That said I have no issues with other cultures and don't feel as if they spend their time trying to cooerce me into living my life the way they do, so their blessings would be assumed to be well wishes.

Is this fair - probably not but it is based on my life experiences. That said most of friends are christian and I have no issues with it. I beleive in God just not organized religion and I'm glad it works for them. But these friends know how I feel and don't push their beleifs on me in any way.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded answer but I hope this helps you understand a little.

thanks for answering and I don't want to accuse you of anything, but maybe you can see why I'm thinking this is just an anti-Christian thing.

It's cute if the old native american woman does it, charming if the hindu sherpa does it, and creepy if Catholic auntpolly does it.

 

[orljustin]

thanks for answering and I don't want to accuse you of anything, but maybe you can see why I'm thinking this is just an anti-Christian thing.

It's cute if the old native american woman does it, charming if the hindu sherpa does it, and creepy if Catholic auntpolly does it.

Read it again. Interesting, learning experiences that are not everyday/common are ok. People in your every day life trying to bless you is annoying.

 

[auntpolly]

Read it again. Interesting, learning experiences that are not everyday/common are ok. People in your every day life trying to bless you is annoying.

Okee dokee! Got it!

 

[caitycaity]

I am really fascinated by religion and have friends that practice all kinds of them. I think it's the coolest thing when I get to participate somehow in their customs -- maybe that's why I have a hard time understanding why this is even an issue.

i don't disagree with this at all. i enjoy learning new things. however, i don't get anything out of these experiences spiritually. it's just like hanging out with my friends in any other way.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

Read it again. Interesting, learning experiences that are not everyday/common are ok. People in your every day life trying to bless you is annoying.

Ok, but do you think that they are trying to be annoying?? Maybe the people that say "God bless you" to a stranger, is how others would just say, "Have a nice day". I don't think Christians have a motive to offend with such an expression. Now people that go out and witness to other people, that is another story and even I get uncomfortable with that. I'm not saying that they mean to offend, but that is getting too much in my personal space and making too many assumptions about me.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

To clarify, I was just responding to the idea that homosexuality is a good analogy to dinnertime prayer -- and trying to argue that it is not a good analogy. I was trying to show that the only way the analogy would work is if you turned it into a participatory group activity (I suggested spin the bottle as an example).

However, I didn't realize you were partially responding to the notion that people shouldn't 'wear their religion on their sleeve' and/or trying to make an analogy between being openly gay and being openly religious. That is a fine analogy. However, I don't totally think the OP meant that religious people should "closet" themselves.

I was more on the part where someone said to keep it all in private.

The latter is what I meant and the discussion evolved into that. OP did provide later clarification and his case--it would be okay to make a "rule" for his home since he's being forced constantly into something that makes him uncomfortable.

 

[WDWfor5]

thanks for answering and I don't want to accuse you of anything, but maybe you can see why I'm thinking this is just an anti-Christian thing.

It's cute if the old native american woman does it, charming if the hindu sherpa does it, and creepy if Catholic auntpolly does it.

orljustin got it exactly - thanks

If I went to visit a historical church (which I did just last month) the older gentleman who said "god bless you" to my family, was just being sweet because he had a right to assume that I was christian or interested in christianity since I chose to visit his church. The annoying people in the general world who bless me, not so much. Does this mean I complain about it or freak out? Certainly not but it is annoying to have some confront me with their religion when I'm just going about my business.

Something to compare it to - I have never had a stranger who is obviously jewish or muslim make religious comments to me and I doubt anyone has. If the clerk at a store started saying "Allah be with you" or something like that, would that be okay with most people? Maybe you (Anunt Polly ) wouldnt mind but I'm guessing most people would freak out and yet to me it's the same thing!

Just another perspective.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Something to compare it to - I have never had a stranger who is obviously jewish or muslim make religious comments to me and I doubt anyone has. If the clerk at a store started saying "Allah be with you" or something like that, would that be okay with most people? Maybe you (Anunt Polly ) wouldnt mind but I'm guessing most people would freak out and yet to me it's the same thing!

Just another perspective.

I don't know...an awful look of folks get their panties in a bunch over Happy Holidays...Allah may just send them over the edge .

Just kidding.

 

[BillSears]

Sorry I haven't read all 9 pages....

I'm an agnostic and really don't care if you pray or not. Even if it's my house go ahead and do it. I'll sit by and be silent and let you do your ritual. Of course inside my head I'm replacing the word God every time you say it with "Flying Spagetti Monster".

Flying Spagetti Monster is great,
Flying SPagetti Monster is good,
Let us thank him for our food....

 

[themarquis]

Ok, but do you think that they are trying to be annoying?? Maybe the people that say "God bless you" to a stranger, is how others would just say, "Have a nice day". I don't think Christians have a motive to offend with such an expression. Now people that go out and witness to other people, that is another story and even I get uncomfortable with that. I'm not saying that they mean to offend, but that is getting too much in my personal space and making too many assumptions about me.

I don't think that their point was that people are *trying* to annoy -- but that the end result is that they *do* annoy.

However you have to wonder -- if there was something I did all the time that annoyed most or many people, once I realized that, I might try to do something different, for the sake of politeness. Even if I thought what I was doing was fine and great, if it annoyed others, I would try to not do it. (in general)

Let's say I'm a "trekkie" and every time I greet someone, I do the vulcan greeting or whatever. It might be I feel very strongly about my identity, and I might really want to get others to join me and be trekkies as well, but it turns out people are really bugged by what I'm doing and I'm fighting a losing battle. I think I might ultimately decide a simple handshake is better.

In general I feel that people who want to "bless" me or pray for me or enjoin me to thank god with them are (in a sense) selfishly motivated in that they are not thinking about what I might want, only what they want and what they think would be best for me according to their religion. Many people who do these kinds of things might not a) realize they are selfishly motivated or b) might not realize they are upsetting others, which is why I try not to be offended. However, I *am* annoyed! I know often in their hearts they are wonderful people who just want me to participate in something (their religion) that they think would be good for me. But ultimately I decide what is best for myself, and I think these situations signify a certain lack of respect for me as an individual who can make my own choices.

Now, of course, there are non-religious folks who sometimes place me in situations in which they want to decide what might be best for me -- but I think most of us generally agree that such an activity is somewhat rude (for example, a trekkie friend who continually tries to get me to dress up in costume or go to conventions when I've clearly stated that I'm uninterested). However, it does upset me that when religion is the motivating force behind what is essentially rudeness and disrespect, I'm not allowed to say anything -- I'm supposed to be thankful and/or keep my mouth shut (while everyone would be fine with me saying to the trekkie, you need to cut that out). In other words, spiritually motivated activities are considered to be beyond critique.

 

[GeorgeG]

Okay, I really want to apologize for strirring up such a hornet's nest. I do have some gay friends and that doesn't bother me at all, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. I used some exagerated examples in my original post to try to make my point, which seems to have tainted the results. I could go on and on about my religious beliefs or disbeliefs, but there isn't enough bandwidth in the web for it. You'll just have to wait for the book to come out.

Thanks again for all the responses, though. A lot of what I've read (and re-read) does solidify my stance even more. And, a hearty thank you to those of you who see the point I'm trying to make and to those who make it even stronger, albiet unintentionally.

Part of the problem (okay, my problem) is that so many people feel it's the non-believer who must always make the concessions in deference to the believers. Let's just say for argument's sake I wanted to say something worshiping the devil (No, I'm not at all into that) at my own dinner table. However brief I was, the Christians would be offended and I could understand that. Even if this was something I really believed in very strongly it would be wrong for me to subject my non-devil-worshiping friends to it. Don't worry, though... I'm not a devil worshiper or anything like that, I just haven't made up my mind on the belief in a God, and that's sixty years into my life.

I want to tell you about one situation and then I'll go away. Years ago, good friends of ours who knew how I felt about such things asked me to be the Godfather to their child. I was flattered that they thought that much of me, but also a bit offended. I politely declined reminding them that I don't believe in such things and therefore could not. Now, these friends were self-proclaimed "real Christians." In short, you weren't really a Christian unless you truly believed as they did and they wore it on both sleeves and made sure you noticed. Given all that, they still pleaded with me to accept against my beliefs... "for them." I had to wonder where their heads were. "We know you're a heathen, but we really want you to be Godfather to our son..." Kinda sad, isn't it?

Oh well, I'll muddle through Thursday the best I can. Again, thanks for all the replies and everyone have a great Thanksgiving! As promised, I'll go away now...

 

[Fitswimmer]

I say "God bless you" when someone sneezes because I've said it all my life. It's a reflex and I certainly don't mean to insult anybody. It's more habit than anything else. I certainly don't believe that the person needs to be protected from evil spirits entering in, which is what I think the originated the practice. Would dropping the God and just saying "bless you" be less offensive? It seems rude to say nothing.

I don't intend to "shove" my faith in anyone's face, because I find that kind of thing offensive. I have had non-believers "shove" their non-belief in my face and I find that as offensive as religious evangelization. I don't go around telling non-believers that I think they are wrong, so I really find it annoying when non-believers tell me how ignorant I am for believing in God.

The problem is that there are too many Christians who missed out on the Free Will part of the lesson. Yes, we are called by God to share our faith, but once you've made your overture and the person has chosen NOT to believe-leave them alone. You've made your choice, they've made theirs and you are both entitled to that choice.

 

[chobie]

Part of the problem (okay, my problem) is that so many people feel it's the non-believer who must always make the concessions in deference to the believers. Let's just say for argument's sake I wanted to say something worshiping the devil (No, I'm not at all into that) at my own dinner table. However brief I was, the Christians would be offended and I could understand that. Even if this was something I really believed in very strongly it would be wrong for me to subject my non-devil-worshiping friends to it. Don't worry, though... I'm not a devil worshiper or anything like that, I just haven't made up my mind on the belief in a God, and that's sixty years into my life....

And there you go, it is us non-beleivers making the concessions most of the time and yet you don't here us crying about being persecuted for having to hide our non-faith.

Don't Christians think its rude to put their non-believing friends in the uncomfortable situation of being an outsider while they say their prayers? Will God feel slighted if the thanks for the meal is done silently, without the head bowing, hand holding performance?

For me, as a guest I politley go along with the grace and as a hostess I politiely go along with the grace. I'm doing unto to others as I wish they would do unto me, but they are not reciprocating.

 

[Cool-Beans]

If I knew someone was a devil-worshipper, I would not eat at thier house. I think that is really, super strange. I couldn't tolerate any devil-worship stuff, so I'd decline the invitation.

I really think that if you are so firmly against religion that you find any display of it offensive and can't abide even a grace over a meal, that you probably should just not have those people who you find so offensive over for meals or go to their house for supper.

If you are like the vast majority of non-believers who just don't buy into the whole religion thing, but understand that others do, then you'll just sit there for a minute until it is over. You'll be bored or amused or whatever, and then it'll be over and you all can move forward into the meal.

This really shouldn't be such a big deal.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And there you go, it is us non-beleivers making the concessions most of the time and yet you don't here us crying about being persecuted for having to hide our non-faith.

Don't Christians think its rude to put their non-believing friends in the uncomfortable situation of being an outsider while they say their prayers? Will God feel slighted if the thanks for the meal is done silently, without the head bowing, hand holding performance?

For me, as a guest I politley go along with the grace and as a hostess I politiely go along with the grace. I'm doing unto to others as I wish they would do unto me, but they are not reciprocating.

I'll state it again--if I go to someone's house HARMLESSLY and all is going fine and this sudden announcement is made: Prayer is unacceptable in this home--if you do it, I will ask you to leave...

Then it would be the hosts problem not my. AT that moment--they have broken the rules of etiquette. They have made their guests uncomfortable by making a butt out of themselves.

I wouldn't all of a sudden announce at a hosted dinner--"We are Catholic, therefor you MUST do the sign of the cross before I will allow you to eat."

The Etiquette Boat floats both ways. A guess should NEVER dictate what their host should or should not do (i.e. announce "I always do a meal blessing and we cannot eat until we do") but a host should NEVER be so rude as to tell someoen that they cannot do a meal blessing personally. And neither host nor guest should ever put the other on the spot.

Those with manners on both sides would understand that and the difference between what is appropriate and what is not.

 

[orljustin]

I say "God bless you" when someone sneezes because I've said it all my life. It's a reflex and I certainly don't mean to insult anybody. It's more habit than anything else. I certainly don't believe that the person needs to be protected from evil spirits entering in, which is what I think the originated the practice. Would dropping the God and just saying "bless you" be less offensive? It seems rude to say nothing.

I think that's just a generic display of courtesy, like how kleenex is just another word for tissue these days. That doesn't bother me.

 

[orljustin]

I'll state it again--if I go to someone's house HARMLESSLY and all is going fine and this sudden announcement is made: Prayer is unacceptable in this home--if you do it, I will ask you to leave...

No one says that. Why would someone say that? Is it because they expect you to break in at dinner with your grace request?