Saying grace...

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That is exactly how it was with me!! But I was a little younger. By around 7 or 8 I had had it with church and my parents were the kind that went every Sunday. I would pretend I was sleeping and hope they wouldn't wake me up to go every week. I would just sit there thinking how rank this was and get more and more bitter about being dragged there. To this day my mother bugs me to go to church and every Easter and Christmas eve turns into a giant fight because I won't go. She says "if you wanted to make me happy you would come to church at least for the holidays" if she wanted to make ME happy she would stop trying to make me go to church and accept what I am. It would be hypocritical for me to go sit in a church while in my head I am thinking "boy is this dumb" She has taken my daughter a few times which is fine with me, my daughter can make up her own mind on the subject when she chooses to.

That is sooo wrong.

Now I admit--I'll be taking my girls to mass until they graduate high school..b/c it is what we do as a family.

I wouldn't force them to go when they are grownups though. That is wrong.

 

[orljustin]

Substitute Homosexuality.

"We know that you are gay--but please refrain from showing any signs of it in our home".

Guess what--if a thread were started on that--the OP would be taken down in a heartbeat for being homophobic.

What does this have to do with prayer you might wonder?

People constantly say--what I do in my bedroom is my business? But their sexuality is who they are. One part stays in the bedroom--but the rest is who they are and part of them. They don't just turn it off b/c it might offend someone.

Guests aren't asking that a mass or church service be conducted in the hosts home...they simply want to say a meal blessing. Why must they hide what is so part of them? Is the host going to "catch" salvation all of a sudden?

Bad analogy. What are "signs of homosexuality"? You expect them to do it on the table or something?

Again, you can't not do a negative. George can skip participating when visiting someone else's house, but since there is no space for grace at George's house, you can't force your will upon him to change the schedule.

A better analogy would be singing.

George is a guest:
Hey George, we're going to sing "The Star Spangled Banner", like we always do this time of night.
No thanks, I don't like to sing. I'll be quiet, or go to the bathroom or something.

George's House:
Time for dinner!

 

[Serena]

George, when people come to your home for dinner. And they do normally insist on saying grace, and they do know how you feel about it. I would be proactive. As everyone sits down, you stand, greet everyone at the table and you say, "I know some of you would like to prayer before the meal, we'll have a moment of silence so you may before we start serving.

Would that work?

 

[auntpolly]

Bad analogy. What are "signs of homosexuality"? You expect them to do it on the table or something?

No, but they could hold hands. Or kiss. Or talk about their upcoming nuptials. And you can't really say, you can do that at your own home not at mine. Well, I guess you could, but everyone would assume you were homophobic.

Rereading George's first post I have reconsidered and agree he doesn't sound like the oaf I first thought he was (bet you are relieved George, to get this approval from me ) If he really can't bear his friends (and I'm assuming you like these people or why are they at your house?) doing their own thing at his house, then, it's his right to tell them what to do.

The only thing that bugged me was the getting up to go to the bathroom thing when at their houses, like he had to make some big point of something. I really think that if a person is this bugged by something, there has to be more to it.

I swear if I were at Buddhists' house and they did some kind of blessing, or if they were just new age atheists and some kind of ode to mother earth before dinner, I'd just feel privileged to be part of it.

I always feel privileged to be part of my Jewish friends' religious rituals. I feel so happy to be included. Why would I be squirming in my seat just because it's not the way I do it? Should I be worried that someone think that I was thinking of converting or something? They know I'm not, they just like sharing their lives with me. I'm lucky.

 

[bobbiwoz]

I want my guests to be happy they chose to accept my invitation to dinner. If my guests prefer a Grace to be said, than so be it.

If my dinner ever became a battle between Satan worshipers and Christians for instance, I would reconsider my stand.

We invite Coast Guard recruits to spend the day/meals with us on Christmas. We don't know their beliefs, traditions, we offer ours, (Polish Heritage) and ask for theirs in return.

Bobbi

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Bad analogy. What are "signs of homosexuality"? You expect them to do it on the table or something?

Again, you can't not do a negative. George can skip participating when visiting someone else's house, but since there is no space for grace at George's house, you can't force your will upon him to change the schedule.

A better analogy would be singing.

George is a guest:
Hey George, we're going to sing "The Star Spangled Banner", like we always do this time of night.
No thanks, I don't like to sing. I'll be quiet, or go to the bathroom or something.

George's House:
Time for dinner!

I disagree wholeheartedly. There are "signs" and I wasn't talking stereotypes either.

Who the heck has itineraries for a get together anyway?

Your schedule analogy is pretty silly.

 

[aprilgail2]

That is sooo wrong.

Now I admit--I'll be taking my girls to mass until they graduate high school..b/c it is what we do as a family.

I wouldn't force them to go when they are grownups though. That is wrong.

What would you do if one of them decided at, say, 14 that they did not believe in god and church and they decided they were atheist- would you still insist they go?- this is not meant to be sarcastic or anything, I am just curious how others would handle their kid being atheist while they were religious.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What would you do if one of them decided at, say, 14 that they did not believe in god and church and they decided they were atheist- would you still insist they go?- this is not meant to be sarcastic or anything, I am just curious how others would handle their kid being atheist while they were religious.

It is my job to raise and rear them and part of the promise I made at their baptism.

When they are a teen--they actually have a mass directed at teens. While I hope that they don't turn away from the church, I would lead them in the direction and facilitate that with the resources available.

You probably came up with 14 b/c that is when confirmation. They pushed confirmation here up until the 11th grade and I hope that my familiy has enough trust to only follow their hearts to be confirmed. Meaning--don't confirm to please me. That would mean that you are doing the wrong thing for you.

I hope that makes sense. I would "make" them attend church but I wouldn't force them to keep a faith they don't believe in. I make them do other things as well that they may not want to do--but it just is the way it is when you are parenting your kids.

 

[caitycaity]

some thoughts:

i agree with the majority that getting up and leaving is rude. however, i definitely also think it is rude to come to someone else's house and get everyone there to say a prayer. i would not kick people who did this out of myhouse, but i do think it is very rude. i don't have aproblem with people individually doing something by themselves, but when one of the guests all of a sudden says, "ok, now let's say grace" i think that is incredibly rude. and yes, believe me, i have seen that happen on multiple occasions.

and I didn't bow my head.

this leads me to a question. dh and i always have a fight over this. when we are someplace where grace is being said (or in a church service for a wedding or something) dh is always elbowing me or saying something afterwards like "you need to close your eyes and bow your head". basically he wants me to pretend i am praying. he thinks it is rude not to look like everyone else because it is a distraction and he feels that other people will think i am purposefully trying to be rude about it. i don't say anything and i never try to create a disturbance. but generally i am the only one who does not bow my gead, close my eyes, or say amen. what do people think - is it rude to just sit there quietly and not look the same way everyone else does???

Me, I figure any blessing from any spiritual person is a gift, no matter what the religion is.But if it's Christian, people have to leave the room.

personally, i do not find any religious blessing from a spiritual person to be a gift. i mean, it's not like i freak out about it or something, but i don't get all warm fuzzy about it either. i am pretty much indifferent to any religious blessing, unless...

If you see this kind of a thing as a weapon or a threat, I think that there may be some unresolved problems that have nothing to do with your host's dinner table.

perhaps it is hard for people who are not religious to understand this, but you better believe religious stuff gets used as a weapon all the time! i confront it in my own extended family everytime we get together. unfortunately there are some people who cannot let go and feel the need to convert you every second of the day. people who make snarky comments even when you are sitting quietly during grace and trying not to bother anyone. it happens.

To this day my mother bugs me to go to church and every Easter and Christmas eve turns into a giant fight because I won't go.

my dad and i had a big fight when i was 19 about this kind of thing. long story short: we always used to go to christmas eve services with some family friends. when i was 19 i finally said (after the service when we were in our car without the other family around) that next year i would prefer to stay home because going made me feel uncomfortable and i always feel like a poser afterwards. my dad freaked out. i don't understand why to this day. he is spiritual but not religious. and yet he felt like it would be really rude for me to decline the invite from the family friends. i wonder if this is a guy thing, like when my dh gets upset that i am not bowing my head? i have never understood this reaction from my dad at all.

 

[LukenDC]

I'm an atheist, but I do respect the beliefs of others and when someone wants to say grace I will politely bow my head. I will not say "Amen" at the end of the prayer because that would be hypocritical and somewhat disrespectful for me to do.

 

[auntpolly]

this leads me to a question. dh and i always have a fight over this. when we are someplace where grace is being said (or in a church service for a wedding or something) dh is always elbowing me or saying something afterwards like "you need to close your eyes and bow your head". basically he wants me to pretend i am praying. he thinks it is rude not to look like everyone else because it is a distraction and he feels that other people will think i am purposefully trying to be rude about it. i don't say anything and i never try to create a disturbance. but generally i am the only one who does not bow my gead, close my eyes, or say amen. what do people think - is it rude to just sit there quietly and not look the same way everyone else does???

Just wondering (and not just asking you Caity, but all who are creeped out by blessings

- Let's say you are touring an ancient native american burial ground and some native americans are performing the gourd dance, an ancient blessing, and they beckon you to join them - you are creeped out?

You are about to climb Everest - and some Buddhists bid you farewell with a blessing - you feel jinxed?

You are eating at an Indian restaurant and the owner comes over to the table and instead of saying bon appetit, he gives you a Hindu blessing in his language -- you'll never eat there again!!!

If you answered yes to these questions, you're right, I don't get it, but I will have to respect your feelings.

 

[themarquis]

Part of it is custom. Why must people hide b/c others are afraid they would catch cooties?


Substitute Homosexuality.

"We know that you are gay--but please refrain from showing any signs of it in our home".

Guess what--if a thread were started on that--the OP would be taken down in a heartbeat for being homophobic.

What does this have to do with prayer you might wonder?

People constantly say--what I do in my bedroom is my business? But their sexuality is who they are. One part stays in the bedroom--but the rest is who they are and part of them. They don't just turn it off b/c it might offend someone.

Guests aren't asking that a mass or church service be conducted in the hosts home...they simply want to say a meal blessing. Why must they hide what is so part of them? Is the host going to "catch" salvation all of a sudden?

The difference would be that when people want to say a group prayer before dinner, there is an expectation that everyone will join in (even if passively) -- in other words, blessings are a participatory, group activity -- homosexuality is not!

Now, if you went over to a gay person's house and they said -- hey, before dinner, we have a tradition where we play spin the bottle and make out with people of the same sex (this is of course the tradition gf and I have at our dinner table ) .. then you'd have an argument ... (and like prayer sessions, the ritual spinning of the bottle would be, to me, kind of rude for guests who weren't interested in participating or would be uncomfortable doing so).

 

[kinntj]

If you're at someones house then I would say sit there and look away or straight ahead and be quiet. We have atheists friends and if they are over for dinner, we do not pray in front of them. Our job as hosts is also not to make our guests feel uncomfortable either.

When we are at their house, they know we are religious, so they tell us that if we want to pray to please do so silently. We already know their rules, so they don't remind us each time.

If George is at his own house, then maybe he should stand up before eating and say a toast or thanking his guests for coming and hoping they enjoy the wonderful food they prepared/put out for them kinda thing. If you have rude family memebers (families...whatcha goona do? ) I would ask them to please pray in silence only. That way you don't have to hear it in your own home and you can't control others thoughts, so there you have it.

 

[auntpolly]

The funniest part of this is that I never would have a blessing at my house if nonChristians were over -- unless it's a Holiday or a birthday. Then I figure that if they want to be part of our day I hope they'll understand how important to us.

I'm just intrigued by this revulsion to something so inocuous -- unless of course it's a matter of someone trying to coerce you into practicing their religion. Which sometimes it is, but most times it isn't.

 

[caitycaity]

auntpolly, i think you are misunderstanding. i do not feel "creeped out" by any religious ceremony or blessing. i am indifferent to them, unless someone is doing it to be snarky or doing it in my house. then, yeah it bothers me.

this is what i said before:

personally, i do not find any religious blessing from a spiritual person to be a gift. i mean, it's not like i freak out about it or something, but i don't get all warm fuzzy about it either. i am pretty much indifferent to any religious blessing, unless...

 

[auntpolly]

auntpolly, i think you are misunderstanding. i do not feel "creeped out" by any religious ceremony or blessing. i am indifferent to them, unless someone is doing it to be snarky or doing it in my house. then, yeah it bothers me.

this is what i said before:

That's why I said I was not just asking you -- but since we're talking, I'd still like to know about the blessings other cultures, the ones I mentioned. You really wouldn't think it a nice thing if you were offered these things. You'd just feel really ?

Again, fine if you don't like them. I don't understand that, but I accept it.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The difference would be that when people want to say a group prayer before dinner, there is an expectation that everyone will join in (even if passively) -- in other words, blessings are a participatory, group activity -- homosexuality is not!

Now, if you went over to a gay person's house and they said -- hey, before dinner, we have a tradition where we play spin the bottle and make out with people of the same sex (this is of course the tradition gf and I have at our dinner table ) .. then you'd have an argument ... (and like prayer sessions, the ritual spinning of the bottle would be, to me, kind of rude for guests who weren't interested in participating or would be uncomfortable doing so).

My analogy was more for the OP's statement that if people wanted to pray they woudl be asked to leave.

So if my brother came to my home with his partner-but I didn't wish for them in anyway to behave like a couple...then my surmise is that according to this thread it is okay to ask them to leave..b/c the hosts feelings are more important than the comfort of their guests.

I'm not talking about guests forcing group prayer or whatever--but rather the point blank banning of blessings and vocally.

The OP later further clarified what his guests who happen to be his family happen to do...like they are wearing their faith on their sleeve. Intentionally rubbing his nose in it. That would be unacceptable.

Now if I did that to my brother it would be out of line.

And I think--a blanket statement to guests that if you pray--then you must leave...is equally out of line.

Where did I suggest spin the bottle or any such thing anyway?

If my brother were in my home visiting--he would be expected to be treated with hospitality and not hatred. The way some people are sooo offended that they are saying that people should keep their religious life private--is just as in poor taste.

ETA: Given the OP's further clarificaiton in the last page or so--I would be okay with what he has to do since his feelings seem to be blatantly disregarded whenever he is with that particular group of people.

 

[caitycaity]

That's why I said I was not just asking you

ok, sorry. i guess i misunderstood. i thought by saying not *just* you (as opposed to not you) you were including me in with people who were "creeped out" by blessings.

i guess i can't give a generic answer. so much of how i feel is situation specific. here are some examples:

1) if someone in my family is sick and someone who does not know i am an atheist says that they are praying for me, i will take it in the spirit it is offered - a nicety. i am glad that they are taking the time to do something like that, but it doesn't make me feel better on a spiritual level because i do not believe in the power of prayer. so i am not indifferent to it on the nicety level, but i am indifferent to it on the religious level.

2) if someone who knows i am an atheist continuously makes religious comments to me on purpose to get me to "see the error of my ways", i feel annoyed and angry.

3) most of my encounters with religion are not personal like the first two examples. most of them are me just being somewhere and someone making some kind of general religious commentary/blessing/ceremony. i do not get offended by these, nor am i happy about them. i am indifferent to them. if they are particularly over the top, i might do an inward eyeroll or think "wow that's sort of over the top." but generally, i do not pay any attention to them and they don't affect me in any way.

 

[themarquis]

Where did I suggest spin the bottle or any such thing anyway?

If my brother were in my home visiting--he would be expected to be treated with hospitality and not hatred. The way some people are sooo offended that they are saying that people should keep their religious life private--is just as in poor taste.

ETA: Given the OP's further clarificaiton in the last page or so--I would be okay with what he has to do since his feelings seem to be blatantly disregarded whenever he is with that particular group of people.

To clarify, I was just responding to the idea that homosexuality is a good analogy to dinnertime prayer -- and trying to argue that it is not a good analogy. I was trying to show that the only way the analogy would work is if you turned it into a participatory group activity (I suggested spin the bottle as an example).

However, I didn't realize you were partially responding to the notion that people shouldn't 'wear their religion on their sleeve' and/or trying to make an analogy between being openly gay and being openly religious. That is a fine analogy. However, I don't totally think the OP meant that religious people should "closet" themselves.

 

[WDWfor5]

That's why I said I was not just asking you -- but since we're talking, I'd still like to know about the blessings other cultures, the ones I mentioned. You really wouldn't think it a nice thing if you were offered these things. You'd just feel really ?

Again, fine if you don't like them. I don't understand that, but I accept it.

Since you're asking anyone, I'll chime in. The answer is it depends - in general everyday life (ie. shopping, walking down the street, doing things with my kids) I am slightly irritated / offended if some random person says to me "God Bless You" I consider it unnecessary and rude. They don't know me and I can't imagine why the guy at Sams Club feels some need to bless me - do I look as if I need help? I can't explain it well but it's just a tiny bit offensive and in no way do I consider it a nice gesture.

As for your examples, somehow those wouldn't bother me. As unfair as it may seem, my issue stems from the christian attitude that they are not only the majority in the country but that everyone must be one too. I am so sick of the christian right trying to legislate their religious beliefs that I instictively feel uncomfortable.

That said I have no issues with other cultures and don't feel as if they spend their time trying to cooerce me into living my life the way they do, so their blessings would be assumed to be well wishes.

Is this fair - probably not but it is based on my life experiences. That said most of friends are christian and I have no issues with it. I beleive in God just not organized religion and I'm glad it works for them. But these friends know how I feel and don't push their beleifs on me in any way.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded answer but I hope this helps you understand a little.