Who'll stand with me...outside the DVC 'member' lounge?

[rg35]

The OP is totally justified. Think of it this way. In trying to sell me DVC, many reps tell me about how I can sell it later, and all my perks (except the transferring to the other timeshare which stopped in 2011) are transferrable. Had I bought DVC, and now this is dropped that if I want to sell them they are all of a sudden worth less than they were a month ago, Disney has just made a tactical move that took value from me and moved it to them. Anyone who owns should be as annoyed as the OP. Not because of it creating two classes, but because you just lost real value. What someone might have bought from you for $30,000 is now something you might only get $29,000 for. Perks can come and go, but they definitely affect the value of what you own!

This is really only valid if the removal of those perks actually leads to a material decrease in resale value. Based on listings since the changes have gone into effect, that doesn't seem to be the case. Member perks for direct purchase members can be (and have been) removed at any time as well, so there is nothing that guarantees the "value" of your DVC timeshare will be the same even if you are a direct member. Other factors - such as where Disney is exercising ROFR, the overall health of the economy, etc., will impact resale values to a far greater degree than the removal of these minor benefits.

 

[OKW Lover]

The OP is totally justified. Think of it this way. In trying to sell me DVC, many reps tell me about how I can sell it later, and all my perks (except the transferring to the other timeshare which stopped in 2011) are transferrable. Had I bought DVC, and now this is dropped that if I want to sell them they are all of a sudden worth less than they were a month ago,

However, the transaction between the member and Disney is defined by the four corners of the closing documents. Nowhere in those documents does Disney make any promises about transferring benefits in the event a member sells their interest.

 

[MrInfinity]

This is really only valid if the removal of those perks actually leads to a material decrease in resale value. Based on listings since the changes have gone into effect, that doesn't seem to be the case. Member perks for direct purchase members can be (and have been) removed at any time as well, so there is nothing that guarantees the "value" of your DVC timeshare will be the same even if you are a direct member. Other factors - such as where Disney is exercising ROFR, the overall health of the economy, etc., will impact resale values to a far greater degree than the removal of these minor benefits.

I agree the impact is on the small side... but even if there are 10 other things impacting the value more, this is still there, and does has an impact on the resale value. If I was considering purchasing resale in March, I might have been willing to pay $30k for some points. Now today, I find out I can no longer get the AP discount and some other benefits, I'm going to be willing to pay less for that same chunk of points. Even tho you are only paying technically for the stays and not the perks, these will factor in to what some will be willing to pay.

However, the transaction between the member and Disney is defined by the four corners of the closing documents. Nowhere in those documents does Disney make any promises about transferring benefits in the event a member sells their interest.

I get that. I even said it. But when selling resale, you're selling to people. And humans make purchases based on emotions and perceived value. That's why you wash a car before you sell it. Is it the same car? Yes. But if it's clean it will be perceived as worth more. That's why you paint your walls beige when you sell a house. Can anyone paint the walls any color they want? Of course. But you will appeal to the largest # of people who will not mentally block out a room if the color is neutral.

One month you owned something that had perks and was worth $X. Now, it does not have those perks. Buyers should know that they were never buying the perks, yet, they would have gotten them before. They may have saved $300 on APs every year, but now they won't. Value has been reduced. Disney made this change to make more money. That money doesn't come from the air, it comes from the owners and potential buyers.

Think about it like this... Say you like a girl (or boy) and so you go to Subway every day and buy a sub to flirt. One day she's not there. So you buy a sub anyways. You learn she's not there any more. You stop going. Why? Because the perk... which was never part of the price of the sub or your actual contract with Subway, is gone. You were never entitled to talk to her, nor was she guaranteed to be there. Yet since she's gone, your value in going is less. You can get the same exact sub you always could for the same price...
yet...
...you don't go.
Perceived value is everything. Removing a perk removes value, even if the perk was never guaranteed.

 

[chalee94]

I know people say you're buying a timeshare and perks are just perks... but those perks are what make people want DVC in the first place. Those perks make one able to go to WDW more, spend more, have fun more. But once you buy in, you hold very little power to do anything except use your stays.

If perks are driving the buying decision, that is a mistake (as people are (again) seeing). That is why the long-term owners, who have seen perks like valet parking and trading for cruises come and go, keeping telling prospective buyers not to go for the perks. they can come and go for both direct and resale purchasers, so you are asking for disappointment.

Before you buy, you are the desired customer. After you buy, you become an adversary to Disney in a way. Because once you own, you want your property value to remain high so you can sell it later for a good value, but Disney wants it to devalue so they can buy it back for cheap. They control the perks which determine the perceived value, so Disney holds all the cards in the market.

This is a pretty good point. (although the perks are not really much of a factor in the valuation IMO - it's always more a question of the underlying rental value.)

The OP is totally justified.

The OP is justified in their disappointment - I was disappointed when DVC re-allocated the point costs for weekends and weeknights several years ago - but they don't have much in the way of a valid argument. If they had done their homework, they would have understood (intellectually at least) that if they needed to sell down the line, that that would put them in an adversarial relationship to the Mouse.

In trying to sell me DVC, many reps tell me about how I can sell it later, and all my perks (except the transferring to the other timeshare which stopped in 2011) are transferrable.

Pretty sure this is all in your imagination. Timeshare salespeople virtually NEVER talk about what might happen if you sell down the line. Partly because the stuff in writing usually makes the point that no resale values are implied or guaranteed (so direct lies like that one will get you fired immediately) and also, once the guides started down that road, it would quickly become obvious that if Disney were to make changes that significantly hurt resale values, buying resale to begin with will always mean losing less money than paying extra to buy direct...which would send potential direct buyers out the door.

Some DISboard posters who are proud of their ownership of a "Piece of the Magic" might make that point - and it is great that DVC has historically held up very well in resale values compared to most other timeshares.

But if you were ever under the illusion that there was a "Disney difference" - and after the 2011 changes, there is really no excuse - by now you should understand that DVC is fundamentally, just another timeshare.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...y-vacation-club-time-share-owners-time-shares

A Disney Vacation Club spokeswoman said customers who bought their time shares directly from Disney have requested such a change. "Our members just felt that that they should get more benefits when they purchase through Disney Vacation Club than those who purchase on the secondary market," spokeswoman Diane Hancock said. She added that the change aligns Disney with other time-share operators who impose similar restrictions on resales.

There was one particularly egregious post by someone else early in this thread:

What if you signed the paperwork for the used car with the understanding that you got the free oil changes. Then the next day they tell you that they decided to change the rules and you no longer get the oil changes? You still have the car you purchased, so you should just be happy.

If this person took their complaint to a judge, the judge would ask to see what was in writing. Once they got to the point that nothing was in writing but they had this "understanding" about the oil changes and other people used to get the freebies so they "assumed" that they would get the freebies...the judge would roll his eyes, charge them court costs and move on to the next case.

Sometimes you have to put on your big boy pants and deal with the reality of the situation. And the reality is that if you are a DVC owner, there continues to be a risk that Disney will damage the resale value of your contract to improve their direct sales numbers. The pixie dusters will call you names for warning potential owners of this reality but it is still there. Owners should have negative feelings about Disney's actions - but also the understanding that the value of any timeshare is always in its use and if you are that concerned about Disney taking further action to damage the resale value of your DVC contract, then it's time to get out and sell.

 

[MrInfinity]

If perks are driving the buying decision, that is a mistake (as people are (again) seeing). That is why the long-term owners, who have seen perks like valet parking and trading for cruises come and go, keeping telling prospective buyers not to go for the perks. they can come and go for both direct and resale purchasers, so you are asking for disappointment.

You're making a leap from my position which is that perks have a small impact on the buying decision to this... perks drive the buying decision. They are not the primary factor, but they do play in.

The OP is justified in their disappointment - I was disappointed when DVC re-allocated the point costs for weekends and weeknights several years ago - but they don't have much in the way of a valid argument. If they had done their homework, they would have understood (intellectually at least) that if they needed to sell down the line, that that would put them in an adversarial relationship to the Mouse.

True. An awkward position to be in, indeed.

Pretty sure this is all in your imagination. Timeshare salespeople virtually NEVER talk about what might happen if you sell down the line. Partly because the stuff in writing usually makes the point that no resale values are implied or guaranteed (so direct lies like that one will get you fired immediately) and also, once the guides started down that road, it would quickly become obvious that if Disney were to make changes that significantly hurt resale values, buying resale to begin with will always mean losing less money than paying extra to buy direct...which would send potential direct buyers out the door.

I agree w all this, and I'm an avid contract reader. Yet, when people buy, they will look at the fact that they used to get $300 off their APs. Now, they won't. This will factor in to the DVC-Hotel decision spreadsheets, and will have an impact on the people for which the cost was a driver and the math for them added up to being close on that buy or rent decision.

But if you were ever under the illusion that there was a "Disney difference" - and after the 2011 changes, there is really no excuse - by now you should understand that DVC is fundamentally, just another timeshare.

Well, ok. So I get that, and I think you get that, yet, a lot of people buy based on emotion. I would never buy a Sheraton timeshare yet we've been close to buying Disney because there are some intangibles like being part of Disney World -- so even I am not immune

Sometimes you have to put on your big boy pants and deal with the reality of the situation. And the reality is that if you are a DVC owner, there continues to be a risk that Disney will damage the resale value of your contract to improve their direct sales numbers. The pixie dusters will call you names for warning potential owners of this reality but it is still there. Owners should have negative feelings about Disney's actions - but also the understanding that the value of any timeshare is always in its use and if you are that concerned about Disney taking further action to damage the resale value of your DVC contract, then it's time to get out and sell.

I don't think we disagree here. Disney's actions can have an effect at any time, and this is one such case in which they did.

 

[chalee94]

...yet, a lot of people buy based on emotion. I would never buy a Sheraton timeshare yet we've been close to buying Disney because there are some intangibles like being part of Disney World.

if they did not buy on emotion, there would not be so many timeshare salespeople with sweet luxury cars and boats. in a few cases, it works out great for both sides - in many more cases, it turns out to be a bad idea to drop tens of thousands of dollars without first asking questions like "so what if things change and i need to sell?" (and especially asking those questions of current or former owners, rather than trusting salespeople who are looking at your wallet to have your best interests at heart.)

when potential buyers come to the boards all starry-eyed with romantic notions about owning a piece of the magic, a number of posters will warn them of the negatives and potential negatives. other posters (typically newbies) will be critical of the "negativity."

but this is a great time to say "here is why you can't be naive and doe-eyed when it comes to financial transactions like this one." this is why some of us can be a little negative in trying to remind potential buyers that they are dealing with Disney Corp. and not a cartoon mouse. DVC ownership does not mean that Disney considers you a VIP, so you'd have to find a way to put the "intangibles" to the side and consider the deal critically and analytically.

i appreciated posters like Dean, Crisi, and Deb&Bill telling me the downsides and risks before i bought in just over a decade ago. i have been bummed out by some of the changes but none of it has really surprised me.. and while we can't keep everyone from spending $20,000 on DVC and then coming to the forums months later and asking "so how does this DVC thing i bought actually work?", i would like to think the DIS has had a positive impact in educating people even before they buy.

and that's all i'm saying, that it is more than fair to tell people like the OP that they have unrealistic expectations of what DVC is. with all the information available on the internet, it is indefensible to make these sorts of significant financial decisions based on emotion and optimistic assumptions that Disney will go over and above their contractual obligations to the DVC owners. After 2011 set the tone, 2016 almost certainly won't be the last time this kind of issue comes up.

 

[firerunner1965]

I am a newbie here and tossing in my two cents.

We just passed ROFR and we didn't come here until AFTER we started the process. We didnt even know about all these *perks* so finding out that we were not going to get them played zero roll in our decision to buy.

We are Disney Fanatics, going to Disney once a month (cept for summer too hot) and staying at least twice a year in the Deluxe rooms (at 400 and 500 a night OYe). This made financial sense to us. Our Rooms are now paid until we die or are so old we cannot go. We are fortunate and paid cash so no finance charges and put our adult children on the deed.

For us this is good and not having these *perks* means nothing. We have a Disney Visa so we get dining, shopping etc discounts, we are AP holders so yup discounts there too and now we have our DVC, yes this made very good sense to us.

I cannot wait to book our first room!!!

 

[Dean]

Rather than going through quoting, I'll just make some statements related to the posts today. Reallocations can be disappointing but one should not get upset with DVC if they happen, it's the nature of the beast and everyone either knew or should have known they were a risk either before buying or at least by the end of the cancelation period. People do buy on emotion but that doesn't make it a good decision, still each individual is responsible for their decisions no matter the reasons or situation. IMO the situations where it'd be reasonable to buy in part because of the perks is extremely limited, basically never for all but extreme circumstances that are very special where one could throw it away in a few years and come out OK. DVC is just another good timeshare that happens to be on property, no more and no less. It's not any better than Marriott, Hilton, etc and not any worse in general, just different. It is better in some areas and worse in others. I doubt the loss of perks will make a big difference in resale value but I suspect it will make a small difference.

 

[thejewellfamily]

Does she? TOWL asks for member cards about 50-50...

I was told the TOWL didn't require membership cards. BLT will be our home resort.

 

[thejewellfamily]

I don't care about the perks. I just want the darn card.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I was told the TOWL didn't require membership cards. BLT will be our home resort.

Things like that are subject to change, frequently.

 

[supersnoop]

I was told the TOWL didn't require membership cards. BLT will be our home resort.

Who told you that? Was there a specific circumstance mentioned?

 

[penguinmint]

So when we first logged in after getting our membership number (we submitted for ROFR on 3/30) we had the screen view of those who will not be getting membership cards, the benefits listed were TOWL (it did say that the screen shot of a membership card would be required, which was shown to be different than the blue ones, a very simple white card was what we saw) , Pool Hopping and DVD rentals, and nothing else. Luckily a quick call to member admin fixed it and now we see our blue cards (still waiting for them to be mailed) and all other benefits. Hope that helps.

 

[YoSteph]

So when we first logged in after getting our membership number (we submitted for ROFR on 3/30) we had the screen view of those who will not be getting membership cards, the benefits listed were TOWL (it did say that the screen shot of a membership card would be required, which was shown to be different than the blue ones, a very simple white card was what we saw) , Pool Hopping and DVD rentals, and nothing else. Luckily a quick call to member admin fixed it and now we see our blue cards (still waiting for them to be mailed) and all other benefits. Hope that helps.

Great info about the white, basic (sad sounding) e-card vs the blue e-cards. I had passed ROFR when this all happened and saw 'Blue' when I finally was able to log in. Still waiting for physical cards to be mailed...thanks for pointing out that there is a difference and that is call to Member Admin did the trick.

 

[disneynutz]

If anything DVC has taught us that Disney just wants to make money, wasn't it 9 billion in profit during the last year? They are also very good at putting on a show knowing what people will put up with as they increase prices and reduce benefits, perks, and offerings. They have an IT department that can't make a website work, any website but they can implement magic bands because they increase profit. They will continue to adjust and come up with ways to make even more money, it doesn't really matter what we want or expect.

Bill

 

[ScubaCat]

They have an IT department that can't make a website work

The cash booking website seems to be pretty stable. What a coincidence.

 

[Baklava]

I was told the TOWL didn't require membership cards. BLT will be our home resort.

We bought in January and used TOWL. We definitely had to show our card.

 

[jedcaum]

Off- topic, but I keep seeing the same folks make this same complaint about the websites, and it just isn't anywhere near accurate any more.

All of Disney's websites are remarkably good, especially for the complexity and sheer scale of what they are, not to mention the range of tasks they can perform.

A couple years ago, maybe this complaint was justified, but now, from administrative tasks with the DVC membership to planning, booking, and then detailed logistics for every aspect of a Disney vacation, the web presence is stellar.

User-friendly, instant, possible with any tech including cellphone apps while I'm in line at the park, etc. Its an amazing technological marvel.

You can hate on Disney for firing those capable IT folks, and forcing them to train their H1 visa replacements, but being honest you cannot fault the website as it is today.

If you are having issues, it's a user issue.

 

[wdrl]

We bought in January and used TOWL. We definitely had to show our card.

Were you staying at BLT at the time you visited TOWL?

 

[DisBuckMan]

Were you staying at BLT at the time you visited TOWL?

We had to show our cards two weeks ago while staying at BLT.