Shanghai Trouble?

[SirDuff]

I remember when the Chinese were given control of Hong Kong...

It was 1999 and I watched it on CNN...

Must have been watching a repeat The transfer happened in 1997.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Must have been watching a repeat The transfer happened in 1997.

Lol...that actually makes more sense...I was too lazy to look it up...

Ballpark figure

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Asia in general, and China specifically like theme parks. Look at the recent chart of top world theme park attendance; Asia has a large number of the highest attended parks. And they love theme parks especially. China loves American culture and movies - not the government, the people. China is growing, the middle class is growing, interest in our culture is growing. Just read about the changing movie market in China. It is the second biggest market now and will someday pass the US and be the biggest Market. As someone mentioned they throw money at Disney movies. They know Disney. You put Big Hero 6 and Frozen in Shanghai and the Chinese that love those franchises will pour in.

Oh, and Disney has an arm that will be making movies specifically for the Chinese market and we will get the better left overs.

Not to mention Shanghai is a humongous city.

There may be growing pains, but this will be a success.

And no, China is not going to just grab Shanghai. They can't. They may like to steel what they can, but it will not be such a large company. It would cause an international incident. Not to mention the investment China so desperately wants to attract would immediately dry up.

Did everyone here saying China doesn't know Disney miss the Disney store opening with lines so long they closed the line early in the day because it met the capacity for the entire day. Hmmm. Doesn't fit with people's negative assumptions. On the contrary what some are saying, China knows and loves Disney. However, that doesn't make everything easy. The cultural divide must still be bridged appropriately. But Disney now has plenty of experience at adapting to Asian cultures..

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I love all the throwing around of a "growing middle class"...as if its Peoria, Illinois in 1955.

Very dangerous to apply western ideas...especially horribly outdated American ones that increasingly don't reflect our own country... To an entirely different subset of **** sapiens...

Just wait about about ten years and see what the nomad tribal clans on the Tigris and Euphrates...one of the birth places of civilization... Looks like.

One thing is still 100% true... If china goes well it will mean absolutely nothing for Los estados unidos... And if it doesn't it will be used as an excuse...

Some around here should get to work on the excuses so were ready to roll.

 

[rteetz]

Asia in general, and China specifically like theme parks. Look at the recent chart of top world theme park attendance; Asia has a large number of the highest attended parks. And they love theme parks especially. China loves American culture and movies - not the government, the people. China is growing, the middle class is growing, interest in our culture is growing. Just read about the changing movie market in China. It is the second biggest market now and will someday pass the US and be the biggest Market. As someone mentioned they throw money at Disney movies. They know Disney. You put Big Hero 6 and Frozen in Shanghai and the Chinese that love those franchises will pour in.

Oh, and Disney has an arm that will be making movies specifically for the Chinese market and we will get the better left overs.

Not to mention Shanghai is a humongous city.

There may be growing pains, but this will be a success.

And no, China is not going to just grab Shanghai. They can't. They may like to steel what they can, but it will not be such a large company. It would cause an international incident. Not to mention the investment China so desperately wants to attract would immediately dry up.

Did everyone here saying China doesn't know Disney miss the Disney store opening with lines so long they closed the line early in the day because it met the capacity for the entire day. Hmmm. Doesn't fit with people's negative assumptions. On the contrary what some are saying, China knows and loves Disney. However, that doesn't make everything easy. The cultural divide must still be bridged appropriately. But Disney now has plenty of experience at adapting to Asian cultures..

Yes China likes theme parks that's one of the reasons disney is building another park there. Each area of China is different. Hong Kong may know disney very well but that's because they were a British territory and Americanized. Shanghai is a different story. They opened the disney store because they wanted to get people familiar with disney. Yes it's been very popular but still disney is not everywhere like it is here in the US. Disney is still a pretty new brand to China. I'm not saying it won't be a success for one but how do we know if it will be or not if the Chinese government inflates numbers or makes it look like it's doing better than it is. You know they are a communist country they can do those things. I'd like to see some proof that China knows and loves disney so much and that it's such an iconic brand there. Also how do they have plenty experience? OLC brought disney to Japan, and HKDL is in a very Americanized area of China.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Did everyone here saying China doesn't know Disney miss the Disney store opening with lines so long they closed the line early in the day because it met the capacity for the entire day.

I never toured Shanghai but lots of other cities in China back in the day (most recently 9 years ago). What I found was that there were many, huge, modern stores selling Western brands. Every city had several of them. Anything that was "Western" or Japanese-branded was just about exactly the same price in Chinese yuan, after converting your money, as it would have been if you bought it in North America. I'm talking about clothes, toys, electronics, food, everything. These stores were huge, they were everywhere, and they were completely empty. Lots of sales staff but no customers. Really, none. Our family would get off the escalator in one of these stores and immediately 8 or 10 clerks would look at us in surprise and worry. They'd follow us all over the floor, we'd look at the prices and realize it was the same stuff we could buy at home, for the same (ridiculously high) prices, and we'd get back on the escalator ... to everyone's relief.

But the little market stalls and department stores selling local, Chinese no-name and knock-off brands ... whoa! These stores were packed all the time, and I mean packed. And why wouldn't they be? For someone who probably makes only a few hundred dollars a month, if you have a choice between a $400 Sony product and a knock-off that's at least 90% as good as the Sony and maybe 25% the price ... well there's no choice at all.

My point ... a Disney store selling genuine, Disney-hologrammed (actually genuine not fake genuine holograms) may have had a really big stampede of curious Shanghainese on the day it opened ... but if they're selling more or less the same stuff as North American Disney stores at more or less the same prices ... forget about it, this is not going to "penetrate" the Chinese market.

And here's the real catch ... if Disney was to sell the same, genuine stuff but at prices the Chinese could afford (say, 10-25% of the foreign price) then everything would immediately be scooped up and sold on ebay for maybe 50% of the North American price.

So I wonder ... was that stampede into the Disney store really motivated by love of Disney cartoons, or by plain old curiosity to find out if a quick buck could be made? I've heard that even here in North America when there is a limited release of a super-big product, a good portion of the people lining up all night to scoop up the product are would-be ebay flippers who are going to immediately list it for sale in places where it wouldn't be released for a while.

If you don't believe that a lot of those Shanghainese "Disney lovers" were thinking that way, then you have severely underestimated the intelligence and business savvy of the average Chinese ...

 

[Yellowstonetim]

You can twist the Disney store opening all you want. The response was amazing. People don't stand in line all day for something they don't know about and don't love. China eats up US culture and has for a long time. The only limitation has been the population's location and money. But now a large segment of the population has money and connection to our culture. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. There will be the usual growing pains but it will last, grow, and do fine. In fact in 20 or 30 years it may pass Magic Kingdom in attendance.

Look at the attendance at Disneyland. It is mostly local and located in country with a population under 400M. China has over a Billion and they love Disney movies. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. Not only are things ripe now, but they are growing exponentially. That is why Disney now has a movie arm just to make Chinese Disney movies. Think about that for a minute.

The only risk is that the parks are set up according to Chinese cultural aesthetics. Disney has already learned this one and China is heavily involved.

 

[rteetz]

You can twist the Disney store opening all you want. The response was amazing. People don't stand in line all day for something they don't know about and don't love. China eats up US culture and has for a long time. The only limitation has been the population's location and money. But now a large segment of the population has money and connection to our culture. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. There will be the usual growing pains but it will last, grow, and do fine. In fact in 20 or 30 years it may pass Magic Kingdom in attendance.

Look at the attendance at Disneyland. It is mostly local and located in country with a population under 400M. China has over a Billion and they love Disney movies. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. Not only are things ripe now, but they are growing exponentially. That is why Disney now has a movie arm just to make Chinese Disney movies. Think about that for a minute.

The only risk is that the parks are set up according to Chinese cultural aesthetics. Disney has already learned this one and China is heavily involved.

I am not trying to twist the opening. Yes it was huge day one but we haven't heard anything about it since that opening day.

Based on what I've heard from people with experience in this city is that they are not as familiar with Disney as you may think. Also not every region or city of China is the same. Like I said Hong Kong is much different than Shanghai or Beijing.

 

[Barnabe]

You can twist the Disney store opening all you want. The response was amazing. People don't stand in line all day for something they don't know about and don't love. China eats up US culture and has for a long time. The only limitation has been the population's location and money. But now a large segment of the population has money and connection to our culture. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. There will be the usual growing pains but it will last, grow, and do fine. In fact in 20 or 30 years it may pass Magic Kingdom in attendance.

Look at the attendance at Disneyland. It is mostly local and located in country with a population under 400M. China has over a Billion and they love Disney movies. The Disney Store coupled with the HUGE response to Disney movies coupled with the size of the population coupled with the love of theme parks. This is going to be good. It is pretty much obvious. Not only are things ripe now, but they are growing exponentially. That is why Disney now has a movie arm just to make Chinese Disney movies. Think about that for a minute.

The only risk is that the parks are set up according to Chinese cultural aesthetics. Disney has already learned this one and China is heavily involved.

Lines at grand openings do not necessarily indicate success. I would be more interested in seeing the people who are exiting the stores. Are they all carrying bags of merchandise?

 

[DDLand]

I would add a little bit of nuance to that. At certain times the ruling clique perceive that it will help them maintain and extend their power by convincing their subjects that they can improve their lives by acting like a respected and peaceful member of the international community. That's when major business agreements are signed, Olympic games are hosted, and so on.

At other times - and often even at the same time - the clique feels that their wealth and power can only be preserved and enhanced by acting like a mean S.O.B. who's willing to step up and defend the ordinary people from foreign bullies. So called. That's when you see foreign companies treated disrespectfully, expropriated, or their contracts, patents, copyrights and trademarks are ignored ... and you see a lot of military threats and "incidents".

The same schizoid policies are followed by every other ruling clique in the world, in every single country. But the unique position of China (due to political and cultural differences ... and also Russia) is that their ruling clique needs to tramp both of these "go" and "stop" pedals a lot harder than most countries. It's because of a culture of paranoia and feelings of inferiority brought on by centuries of isolation and decades if not centuries of backwards and incompetent economic management. You're great and secure in the world therefore we welcome these Mickey Mice to our doors - AND (OR) - those foreigners hate you so to h_LL with all of them and their cartoon rodents.

That's why you see companies like McDonalds and Disney taking slaps and coming back with a hearty, "Thank you, Sir, may I have another?" It's rough but it's nothing personal.

/pedantic

This may work short term for smaller countries and even to an extent with China, but they can't keep this up forever. China and her companies want to deploy hundreds of billions of dollars of capital in southeast Asia, Africa, the Pacific, Europe, and (you guessed it) the USA. They also have aspirations to be a regional and even a global leader. They need the respect and cooperation of the international community to make that happen. Shanghai has ambitions to become a world class city like London, NYC, Tokyo, Frankfurt, and Hong Kong. If they start seizing businesses (especially assets of companies worth more than small nations, like our very own WDC) they'll scare away investors, and those who will work diplomatically and militarily with them.

It's really the choice of being an obscure hermit or a member of the international community.

 

[Barnabe]

BTW, I think it would be amusing if Bob Iger and Tom Staggs were relegated to the cheap seats at the grand opening of Shanghai. I guess I'm bitter.

 

[rteetz]

BTW, I think it would be amusing if Bob Iger and Tom Staggs were relegated to the cheap seats at the grand opening of Shanghai. I guess I'm bitter.

They Have been. The photo of Iger in the new Shanghai store wasn't supposed to be released. Iger and Staggs went to Shanghai for the opening of the store and a walk through of the park site but weren't allowed to be in any photos because China didn't want them to be. Eisner however who is not part of TWDC anymore of course has a photo of himself in front of an unnamed coaster(Tron). It's been said that Eisner had a better relationship in China than Iger currently has.

 

[DDLand]

Sorry DDland, totally disagree.


The Chinese government for ears now has had a active campaign to steal all the technology and properties from outside companies they can. I heard if from firm after firm that is suckered into moving plants and jobs to china for cheap labor and then discover after stealing the machinery plans and operating designs, they open their own plant in another city. Their is nothing they can do to stop in as the courts are controlled by the government. The contracts mean nothing.

The biggest was a billion dollar deal with the French high speed train......after 3 years the Chinese are now marketing a rip off of the French train to the world market.

They will do what ever they want and there will be nothing Disney will be able to do to stop them. Greedy CEO's like Iger is their best suckers!

AKK

The Chinese government really isn't one government at all. It's a network of the thousands of state run corporations, local municipalities, higher regional authorities, CCP branches, etc. They often compete with one another, and sometimes go rogue. Do I think it's possible that a local municipality or state run corporation conducted trade espionage? Yeah. Does that reflect the views of the entire government or even city trying to gain the world's respect? (Shanghai) Nope. Also note that trade secrets can be done more under the radar, and ripping off WDC physical assets worth 2 billion+ would be glaring.

 

[Barnabe]

They Have been. The photo of Iger in the new Shanghai store wasn't supposed to be released. Iger and Staggs went to Shanghai for the opening of the store and a walk through of the park site but weren't allowed to be in any photos because China didn't want them to be. Eisner however who is not part of TWDC anymore of course has a photo of himself in front of an unnamed coaster(Tron). It's been said that Eisner had a better relationship in China than Iger currently has.

I should've been more specific. I hope the same thing happens at the Shanghai Disney Park opening. I just think Iger needs to be knocked down a peg or three. I resent his treatment of the fans. He has never bothered to make an appearance at a D23 event. He's always conveniently on vacation.

 

[rteetz]

I should've been more specific. I hope the same thing happens at the Shanghai Disney Park opening. I just think Iger needs to be knocked down a peg or three. I resent his treatment of the fans. He has never bothered to make an appearance at a D23 event. He's always conveniently on vacation.

Well based on the info from spirit he's not supposed to be all that involved in the opening. I would assume he'll be there for show of course but that's about it. Iger has been present at d23 for giving out awards or something but not much else.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

The Chinese government really isn't one government at all. It's a network of the thousands of state run corporations, local municipalities, higher regional authorities, CCP branches, etc. They often compete with one another, and sometimes go rogue. Do I think it's possible that a local municipality or state run corporation conducted trade espionage? Yeah. Does that reflect the views of the entire government or even city trying to gain the world's respect? (Shanghai) Nope. Also note that trade secrets can be done more under the radar, and ripping off WDC physical assets worth 2 billion+ would be glaring.

They are doing now....they don't even try to hide.....I have spoken with company after Company.
.The Chinese steal the tech and trade secrets and then markets thier rip offs.
Read up on the French high speed train.....they took them all though the Chinese courts and got no where...no outside country wins againist a a chines company in Chinese courts

AKK

 

[DDLand]

You Maybe right regarding geopolitics and business...

I just don't think this is in bob Iger's realm.

Just a cheap suit who managed to exceed his own wildest expectations...
He's not a CIA agent

That's for sure. He doesn't strike me as smooth enough... Lol No, but it's really as simple as our government and our corporations putting up a fit because they're ripping us off. You yourself like to point out the influence that US corporations hold on the government. Imagine the fury of WDC. It wouldn't be pretty as US and European corporations turned off the money spigots and focused attention elsewhere. Also like I said the State department could squeeze any Chinese aquisitions of US assets.

 

[DDLand]

I think you're making an incorrect assumption that everybody - in this case the Chinese - either is open to Americanism, wants to be Anerica, or wants to be a yielding friend of America.

China simply wants economic might in relation to America so they can dictate terms longterm. The Chinese hold more US debt obligations than Americans do. They don't want an "opening up" of their society to American values. They have 2 billion people - it can't work that way.

In other areas of the world...they just want us the hell off their land and out of their temples. But we can't stop being nosey there as well.

This is Gipper era naïveté...they just what some our economic power - they don't want us.

I think this shanghai park is a perfect manifestation of that. It's a trophy/showpiece for the Chinese for clout. They have no desire to "open up" to American ideals.

Iger has shown some remarkable savvy... More than I have ever thought he could muster...

But not here. If the government is starting already with the "thank you, now kindly stay out of our affairs" in regards to SDL...before it even opens...then that's on CMB for thinking he's untouchable and his rather meager personal wealth on the global scale ensures him somekind of permanent status with a authoritarian regime that controls the mass of world industrialized labor and has a very nasty chip on its shoulder from the 20 century.

Or they were spoofed by Hong Kong...which is not in the heart of the Chinese bread basket.

That's like saying "well, people like disneyland...so a park in Detroit will work...I mean - it's all the same people"

The government and people are not one and the same.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of what the United States' strength is. What we've learned to do with years of refinement is create captivating media, storytelling, and experiences for the masses to enjoy. Our big companies WDC, Sony, 20th Century, etc. are enormous and the only countries that comes close our clout are Britian and India. We specialize in this. We have the talent, the funding, and the experience. Given proper respect, time, and fair competition our companies will penetrate China. It's what our companies do best. Evolve, learn, and grow.

The people of China will begin recieving the U.S.'s stories because we have the best ones. If we don't have the best ones will innovate and evolve until we do. Our companies are more nimble and better backed than the Chinese companies. The people may have a different background, but stories bring together people's of all nationalities together as one. That's a common bond. It can be one of the most powerful cultural bridges.

The people will accept our companies in time, if we're allowed to operate over there fairly.

 

[DDLand]

They are doing now....they don't even try to hide.....I have spoken with company after Company.
.The Chinese steal the tech and trade secrets and then markets thier rip offs.
Read up on the French high speed train.....they took them all though the Chinese courts and got no where...no outside country wins againist a a chines company in Chinese courts

AKK

Trade secrets and intellectual property are considerably less concrete than brick and mortor. It's lower profile. You can also bet the United States public would be whipped into a frenzy if a Disneyland of all things was stolen.

Also companies on their own home turf always have an advantage. Nature of the beast sort of thing.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Our big companies WDC, Sony, 20th Century, etc. are enormous and the only countries that comes close our clout are Britian and India

Our companies ... Sony ... ???