Shanghai Trouble?

[rteetz]

I figured this would be the visceral reaction...

But the reality is that the lack of a shanghai wouldn't have brought much more net gain to Cali and Florida...

If anything...you wound have seen more investment in dcl and DVC...more ships and developments.

They have made their approach with domestic parks clear...they will go big only when "break the glass" is called for...highly rationed/measured otherwise.

I would've much rather seen more investment in DCL maybe not DVC but Disney obviously didn't know what they were getting into and they can't really back out now.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The China project will be looked back on as the biggest mistake Disney has ever made IMO. Even worse than Paris.Huge difference between park in Japan and China. Huge!

Culturally there is no argument there.

Defenders of the project have repeatedly stated raw numbers: "there's 2 BILLION people! There's a vibrant, developing middle class of 300 MILLION"

Great...but they're not American, Canadian, Western European, Japanese...hell even Brazilian...

I believe it's gonna be proven to be a false premise.

A think park in Seoul would have been a better bet - honesty...but that's too close to Hong Kong.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I would've much rather seen more investment in DCL maybe not DVC but Disney obviously didn't know what they were getting into and they can't really back out now.

I don't disagree...but the business reality is that most of the 6+ billion would have been saved/not borrowed...not reinvested domestically.

 

[rteetz]

I don't disagree...but the business reality is that most of the 6+ billion would have been saved/not borrowed...not reinvested domestically.

I agree there but this makes the billions they are spending look wasteful.

 

[Reddog1134]

I don't disagree...but the business reality is that most of the 6+ billion would have been saved/not borrowed...not reinvested domestically.

It's fine to say "I would rather they spent that money on X" but people are just torturing themselves if they think the money WOULD actually be spent on X.

 

[rteetz]

It's fine to say "I would rather they spent that money on X" but people are just torturing themselves if they think the money WOULD actually be spent on X.

I read something interesting today. The board was apparently ready to sign off on a Star Wars expansion in DHS but they didn't because they felt WDI plans didn't have much more than rock work and redwoods.

I just feel that Disney could've saved themselves the billions of dollars and did other things with it. If it wasn't here domestically then in DLP or HKDL.

 

[DDLand]

I read something interesting today. The board was apparently ready to sign off on a Star Wars expansion in DHS but they didn't because they felt WDI plans didn't have much more than rock work and redwoods.

I just feel that Disney could've saved themselves the billions of dollars and did other things with it. If it wasn't here domestically then in DLP or HKDL.

Where'd you see that @rteetz? I totally believe that. One of my criticisms of WDI at present is they blow hundreds of millions on rockwork surrounding so so attractions inside. That's not to say I want concrete box exteriors, but is there a limit? Yep. Have they crossed it more than once? Yeah. Heck I bet most of the Fantasyland budgets went to rockwork. It looks awesome but the rides there are far and few in between.

 

[Reddog1134]

Where'd you see that @rteetz? I totally believe that. One of my criticisms of WDI at present is they blow hundreds of millions on rockwork surrounding so so attractions inside. That's not to say I want concrete box exteriors, but is there a limit? Yep. Have they crossed it more than once? Yeah. Heck I bet most of the Fantasyland budgets went to rockwork. It looks awesome but the rides there are far and few inbbetween.

Well, the thing that "sold" New Fantasyland to guests was "it's pretty to look at".

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well, the thing that "sold" New Fantasyland to guests was "it's pretty to look at".

Yeah...an $8 hamburger for $17.50...

Quite a sell

 

[DDLand]

Culturally there is no argument there.

Defenders of the project have repeatedly stated raw numbers: "there's 2 BILLION people! There's a vibrant, developing middle class of 300 MILLION"

Great...but they're not American, Canadian, Western European, Japanese...hell even Brazilian...

I believe it's gonna be proven to be a false premise.

A think park in Seoul would have been a better bet - honesty...but that's too close to Hong Kong.

Disneyland is the mechanism in which the people will learn to love Disney. Disneyland will be a draw, and there people will learn to love Disney. Or at least that's the plan. Now with Shanghai undermining the whole operation instead of shoring up the characters and IP of WDC it's going to be shoring the Shanghai Government. See the problem with that? This $2 billion+ commercial will open up advertising the wrong product. The biggest marketing fail in the history of the world. WDC will be left looking like idiots because their film, television, and consumer products divisions will not recieve any synergies from the park.

There is a flip side though, and this may be a blessing in disguise. Disney is quintessentially American and represents American values. By the CCP and government taking a direct interest in turning those properties into China's we may see a strong local cultural identity with those characters. That remains to be seen.

This is an epic fail.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Now I'm curious...

If that report has any validity... I'm wondering if they have a talent problem at imagineering?

I mean... This tends to happen alot these days and I fear we may get a double dose soon over in animal kingdom.

I understand the artistic take and the detail...I do...
I love gastons tavern...but I could deal with loving it a little less if some of the intricacy was taken out to better allocate the funds/ labor.

This is the joe rohde effect...going too far to art at the expense of excitement/enjoyment.

There really does need to be a major shakeup/recentering...regardless of if this star wars rumor is true or not.
They need to balance the economic investment/value in the parks with "art for the sake of art"...and that is outta whack.

What are two common comments about both midway mania and Everest?
"The queue is so awesome"...

Fine...but balance it out a little.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disneyland is the mechanism in which the people will learn to love Disney. Disneyland will be a draw, and there people will learn to love Disney. Or at least that's the plan. Now with Shanghai undermining the whole operation instead of shoring up the characters and IP of WDC it's going to be shoring the Shanghai Government. See the problem with that? This $2 billion+ commercial will open up advertising the wrong product. The biggest marketing fail in the history of the world. WDC will be left looking like idiots because their film, television, and consumer products divisions will not recieve any synergies from the park.

There is a flip side though, and this may be a blessing in disguise. Disney is quintessentially American and represents American values. By the CCP and government taking a direct interest in turning those properties into China's we may see a strong local cultural identity with those characters. That remains to be seen.

This is an epic fail.

There have been some good articles written on this.

To compare the Chinese cultural setting to the US is silly. Night and day.

Disneyland opened in 1955...but only barely got built because of the ground work that started with Mickey Mouse in 1928...snow white in 1937... And the impact of network television in the early 50's...

Can't build a park and expect it to bring 100 years of pop culture legacy and warm and fuzzies along with it...

It's like selling of blowtorches to polar bears...

This is a strange gambit...much tougher sell than to the French...and they've adjusted beautifully to that one...

 

[OKW Lover]

Interesting reading. I'm thinking that Disney needs to fall back on its core strength of telling stories in its attractions. Its in this strength that they can transcend the cultural gap.

 

[umichigan10]

Florida's defining moment was April 15, 1998 + 2 years...

And the exit of Eisner - who many of us had mixed feelings on but realized that it could be as bad for parks as good.

I just didnt know at that time that Orlando was viewed as being broken, on the incorrect course, or a "financial liability"...
And thats how it's been treated since.

Kinda the anti Eisner effect...who really embraced the blessing of size in Orlando and acted more like Disneyland was small potatoes.

Eisner certainly had his flaws. But I've always had a healthy respect for him because unlike current management he actually gave a crap about the parks especially toward the beginning. Granted he had his cheap spell at the end but I respect him for what he did for WDW.

I think there just needs to be balance in terms of WDW and DL. Both markets are important and deserve equal attention from corporate

 

[rteetz]

Where'd you see that @rteetz? I totally believe that. One of my criticisms of WDI at present is they blow hundreds of millions on rockwork surrounding so so attractions inside. That's not to say I want concrete box exteriors, but is there a limit? Yep. Have they crossed it more than once? Yeah. Heck I bet most of the Fantasyland budgets went to rockwork. It looks awesome but the rides there are far and few inbbetween.

It was on wdwmagic

I agree but I think both incredible theming and rides are necessary. Disney rarely cuts corners or has in impressive rock work.

 

[rteetz]

Interesting reading. I'm thinking that Disney needs to fall back on its core strength of telling stories in its attractions. Its in this strength that they can transcend the cultural gap.

But what about the business/communist gap? The business side is what is incredibly sketchy.

 

[rteetz]

Eisner certainly had his flaws. But I've always had a healthy respect for him because unlike current management he actually gave a crap about the parks especially toward the beginning. Granted he had his cheap spell at the end but I respect him for what he did for WDW.

I think there just needs to be balance in terms of WDW and DL. Both markets are important and deserve equal attention from corporate

exactly. Eisner looked at WDW for investment but left DL alone for the most part. Iger did the opposite.

 

[DDLand]

There have been some good articles written on this.

To compare the Chinese cultural setting to the US is silly. Night and day.

Disneyland opened in 1955...but only barely got built because of the ground work that started with Mickey Mouse in 1928...snow white in 1937... And the impact of network television in the early 50's...

Can't build a park and expect it to bring 100 years of pop culture legacy and warm and fuzzies along with it...

It's like selling of blowtorches to polar bears...

This is a strange gambit...much tougher sell than to the French...and they've adjusted beautifully to that one...

I'm of the mindset that if the park is a well built piece of art that people will be won over. The Disney characters are by their very design supposed to win over people. Put millions of guests in a safe, clean, beautiful environment that is all about wholesome family fun that tell incredible stories, sprinkle in lovable characters and the magic of Disney (or whatever you want to call it) and you have what Shanghai should be. I think it's a winning strategy. That is if Shanghai doesn't screw it up.

Though as I've said Shanghai has been selling this park as the "people's park." If guests take that same investment in the characters that could be a net positive. However that's a shot in the dark.

For the first time I'm genuinely nervous.

 

[DDLand]

It was on wdwmagic

I agree but I think both incredible theming and rides are necessary. Disney rarely cuts corners or has in impressive rock work.

I found it, Jim Hill was the original source. So obviously taken with a grain of salt, but that story sounds believable. I'm just worried the balance is terribly off with Imagineering.

I'm glad the board had the guts to ask for something more than just an Endor recreation. Though this does seem pathetic. We have cancellation 1 which involved bringing in 7. Now we have cancellation 2 which is simply because the concept is weak. What gives? Problems at Glendale...

 

[rteetz]

I found it, Jim Hill was the original source. So obviously taken with a grain of salt, but that story sounds believable. I'm just worried the balance is terribly off with Imagineering.

I'm glad the board had the guts to ask for something more than just an Endor recreation. Though this does seem pathetic. We have cancellation 1 which involved bringing in 7. Now we have cancellation 2 which is simply because the concept is weak. What gives? Problems at Glendale...

I agree definitely has some backing to it even if it came from Jim