DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

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We own at GF & Riv. If I rent a studio there, or anywhere else for that matter, how is this impacting anyone?
Who's to say that if I didn't rent that studio for someone that I wouldn't have used it or gifted it to a friend?

It seems that people are hung up on the inventory taken by the renter, as if some illegal alien has usurped them and taken possession of what is rightfully theirs. I don't see it that way. The points owned by the "commercial landlord" if not owned by them WOULD BE OWNED BY SOMEONE ELSE! or a multitude of someones. It isn't like they'd be shelved and unused. BOTS not withstanding, the commercial owner is just doing for one what the many would be doing individually. Really a moot point.

Everyone to referring to the what at best would be a 20% difference in studio, renting behavior at a resort like Boardwalk between commercial renters and the general public owning to use as a vacation for themselves.

To save you 1700 posts worth of reading

Some of us myself included do feel that there’s a 20% difference in behavior however since commercial renters are conservatively no more than 20% of the total points rented. The math would say that it would be 20% of 20% effect. In other words, we could be looking at a four percent change in the amount of studios booked. Not something you’re really gonna notice but hey, it’s an improvement.

Some people seem to feel that commercial renters are going to sell their points to someone who buys a boardwalk contract but uses it other resort a significant percentage so they feel the effect would be significant.

To be fair, there would be an effect I don’t think you can argue that there would be no effect.

It’s a matter of three things
1. The number of commercial rentals that are actually removed by Disney.
2. The number of points controlled by the commercial renter.
3. The actual percentage of different behavior between a commercial rental and a regular DVC owner.

None of us can accurately predict any of these values.

That’s why there is general consensus is to go after the commercial renters. And I think everybody agrees on that.

And I agree with your point BOTs are the actual problem that makes everything unfair. Putting in BOT preventing (software like those little boxes where you have to pick out the motorcycles when you book a reservation )would be a minor annoyance for all of us, but it would significantly hinder anyone using an automated tool to put multiple reservations at 8 AM.

 

[AstroBlasters]

We own at GF & Riv. If I rent a studio there, or anywhere else for that matter, how is this impacting anyone?
Who's to say that if I didn't rent that studio for someone that I wouldn't have used it or gifted it to a friend?

It seems that people are hung up on the inventory taken by the renter, as if some illegal alien has usurped them and taken possession of what is rightfully theirs. I don't see it that way. The points owned by the "commercial landlord" if not owned by them WOULD BE OWNED BY SOMEONE ELSE! or a multitude of someones. It isn't like they'd be shelved and unused. BOTS not withstanding, the commercial owner is just doing for one what the many would be doing individually. Really a moot point.

Not sure why I was quoted here.

It’s pretty well established that commercial renters pulling the most in demand studios right at 11m (or earlier with walking) at the most in demand times has a trickle down impact on the other owners.

 

[Sandisw]

I think you’re missing my point here. I’m not suggesting that Disney is responsible for their members actions, I’m suggesting that they use their competitions weakness against them. Why would anyone get tangled up in a legal battle, when they can pick up the phone and tattle on the other side. It’s free and they look like a hero to the community who gets an influx of cash

Because DVC already has all the power they need?

DVC gets to set the commercial use policy and then has full authority to evaluate the reservations being booked on a membership.

Once evaluated, they have full authority to act if they have determined what they see violates their own policy.

No need to complicite involving others since DVc doesn’t need to.

The only really debate is what do owners feel would an an appropriate commercial use policy or what they hope to see DVc include in it.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I’d settle for any enforcement at this point. Looking at rentals, the number is going up, not down, after the T&C change.

That is wild but also doesn’t totally surprise me, especially if they are short dated reservations, as people might be trying to get it in a few more before the enforcement picks up? They may be hoping/assuming they can get another year of profits based on how slowly Disney has moved on enforcement in the past, or betting Disney won’t cancel booked reservations for the bad PR?

I have noticed a lot of rooms came available out towards 10-11m at VGC, but haven’t seen any new availability at BCV (where I’m looking to trade up room sizes) for the holiday season.

At end of the day … Florida is a big state, and Florida is a “small” state … all Disney has to do is pick up the phone to the Governor & the Department of Revenue and there will be tax liens on those large commercial contracts faster than your head can spin … we’re not there yet.

A lot of people are misinterpreting this (and I may be one of them, lol) but I think the point is that at the end of the day, as long as Disney is in favor with the county and state government, they have other tools at their disposal to create pain for the commercial renters who refuse to stop renting, unless those renters have been scrupulously to dot every I and cross every T— a lot of the folks who think they don’t have profit so long as their total income is lower than total dues or buy-in costs, or any of the other wild tax theories that we’ve seen floated on these boards through the years could have major tax liability, might not want to draw attention to themselves fighting Disney for their right to rent studios at $35/pt.

Taxes have nothing to do with this. Let’s keep this in relation to what is at issue.

DVC enforcing the commercial purpose clause against those owners who are violating it using a standard that aligns with the intent of the clause.

Once they identify them, they have all the power they need.

I agree that taxes are unrelated to the contract terms and I do not think Disney has any interest in trying to change the contract terms to make it impossible (or nearly impossible) to rent—but I can see why they would want to discourage expensive litigation and remind the amateur spec renters to exit quietly instead of getting into long legal battles that could come with tax (and criminal tax) risk.

I think Disney has previously signaled that personal use is narrower than many think. It doesn’t really matter what we think though, it matters what Disney thinks and what they decide to do about it. Really hoping we get more info tonight.

 

[muppets3d]

Last year at the end of year condo meeting they said they didn't expect to need to be talking about rentals next year so I would expect the hammer to drop pretty soon, all things considered.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

No you make a good point, certainly if renting were wiped from the program tomorrow somehow (which as we have had beaten into our heads over the past nearly 2000 posts, can't happen) - many studios would still be hard to book.

The number of points in the system doesn't change when commercial renting is curtailed.

The main thing is the commercial outfits book almost exclusively studios because that is what the clientele wants.

So when commercial outfits are gone (if that ever happens), more studios will be opened up for the membership, and not everyone who buys those dumped contracts from the commercial outfits will be booking studios - so theoretically, demand will equalize a bit.

That's the point.

I do agree that if you are a DVC member that isn't as interested in studios, then honestly this whole snafu isn't really concerning you. This really is a studios problem.

But since more and more DVC members (renters notwithstanding) seem to want studios, it is a growing problem.

I'd have to see the numbers, if it supports this supposition that points released by commercial owners and purchased by individuals will somehow result in less demand for the studio vs the clientele that the commercial owner is attracting.

As of right now, I don't think there would be this grand or even this not-so-grande difference. If overnight all commercial renters released their points back to resale and disregarding the impact that would likely have on the value of resale points, those points would be purchased by A) existing DVC owners looking to expand, B) Disney exerting ROFR and C) buyers new to DVC.

Depending on the allotment of where the points end up, with A,B or C will influence how many point holders are seeking studio reservations. By the admission of consensus, group A will likely continue the trend of seeking a studio. Group B is probably a mixed bag, only Disney would be able to say as they know what they own and what people are asking for. Group C can also be a mixed bag. I just don't think there is evidence to say with any degree of certainty that halting the commercial renter will have more than a negligible impact on the availability of the studio unit.

 

[Cfabar1]

Anyone attending the board meeting today?

I considered going, but ultimately wasn’t able to make it… Am hoping next time they don’t put VGF smack dab in the middle of the day…

 

[lowlight]

I'd have to see the numbers, if it supports this supposition that points released by commercial owners and purchased by individuals will somehow result in less demand for the studio vs the clientele that the commercial owner is attracting.

As of right now, I don't think there would be this grand or even this not-so-grande difference. If overnight all commercial renters released their points back to resale and disregarding the impact that would likely have on the value of resale points, those points would be purchased by A) existing DVC owners looking to expand, B) Disney exerting ROFR and C) buyers new to DVC.

Depending on the allotment of where the points end up, with A,B or C will influence how many point holders are seeking studio reservations. By the admission of consensus, group A will likely continue the trend of seeking a studio. Group B is probably a mixed bag, only Disney would be able to say as they know what they own and what people are asking for. Group C can also be a mixed bag. I just don't think there is evidence to say with any degree of certainty that halting the commercial renter will have more than a negligible impact on the availability of the studio unit.

You've obviously owned DVC for at least 6 years so that you have a benchmark to measure against, so I'm surprised you didn't notice the increase in demand yourself when trying to book at certain times of the year.

 

[muppets3d]

I'd have to see the numbers, if it supports this supposition that points released by commercial owners and purchased by individuals will somehow result in less demand for the studio vs the clientele that the commercial owner is attracting.

As of right now, I don't think there would be this grand or even this not-so-grande difference. If overnight all commercial renters released their points back to resale and disregarding the impact that would likely have on the value of resale points, those points would be purchased by A) existing DVC owners looking to expand, B) Disney exerting ROFR and C) buyers new to DVC.

Depending on the allotment of where the points end up, with A,B or C will influence how many point holders are seeking studio reservations. By the admission of consensus, group A will likely continue the trend of seeking a studio. Group B is probably a mixed bag, only Disney would be able to say as they know what they own and what people are asking for. Group C can also be a mixed bag. I just don't think there is evidence to say with any degree of certainty that halting the commercial renter will have more than a negligible impact on the availability of the studio unit.

All you have to do is look at rental broker websites, you'll see pretty much everything they're offering for rent is standard view studios.

The long and the short of it is - people renting points are staying in these rooms with significant frequency, rather than DVC owners and their families as the system was designed. That's not fair, and needs to change.

 

[Sandisw]

That is wild but also doesn’t totally surprise me, especially if they are short dated reservations, as people might be trying to get it in a few more before the enforcement picks up? They may be hoping/assuming they can get another year of profits based on how slowly Disney has moved on enforcement in the past, or betting Disney won’t cancel booked reservations for the bad PR?

I have noticed a lot of rooms came available out towards 10-11m at VGC, but haven’t seen any new availability at BCV (where I’m looking to trade up room sizes) for the holiday season.

A lot of people are misinterpreting this (and I may be one of them, lol) but I think the point is that at the end of the day, as long as Disney is in favor with the county and state government, they have other tools at their disposal to create pain for the commercial renters who refuse to stop renting, unless those renters have been scrupulously to dot every I and cross every T— a lot of the folks who think they don’t have profit so long as their total income is lower than total dues or buy-in costs, or any of the other wild tax theories that we’ve seen floated on these boards through the years could have major tax liability, might not want to draw attention to themselves fighting Disney for their right to rent studios at $35/pt.

I agree that taxes are unrelated to the contract terms and I do not think Disney has any interest in trying to change the contract terms to make it impossible (or nearly impossible) to rent—but I can see why they would want to discourage expensive litigation and remind the amateur spec renters to exit quietly instead of getting into long legal battles that could come with tax (and criminal tax) risk.

I think Disney has previously signaled that personal use is narrower than many think. It doesn’t really matter what we think though, it matters what Disney thinks and what they decide to do about it. Really hoping we get more info tonight.

Actually, they that is not the message DVC conveyed at the meetings that I attended.

They referred to large point owners being the ones doing the stuff to get around the commercial purpose clause.

They even said that commercial renting is a small portion of all reservations

Even after the March meeting, the reports I read said it was not even discussed.

So, let’s see if anyone attending tonight is even aware enough to ask!!!

Just for those who may not have been owners yet!
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...mmercial-renting-walking-during-condo-meeting

 

[Tatebeck]

Actually, that wasn’t the message they conveyed ar the SSR and VGF meetings I attended last December.

They referred to large point owners being the ones doing the stuff to get around the commercial purpose clause.
...

So, not sure where the notion is coming from that DVC has said they want to make it stricter.

Probably from these quotes

"The other category is someone who is doing it commercially. They own a lot of points and it’s a frequent occurrence. We are actively figuring out ways to go after that, and stop that to the best of our ability. Hopefully this is not a conversation we will be having in future years. We’re going to go after that and try to remedy it as best we can."

Senior Vice President and General Manager Bill Diercksen confirmed that Disney Vacation Club has "added resources to our core team at DVC in order to pursue this and make sure that it is fair" to everyday members. According to Yvonne Chang, Executive Director, Business Operations "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this. Hopefully by next year when we have this conversation, we will see some improvement.”

 

[Tatebeck]

I'd have to see the numbers, if it supports this supposition that points released by commercial owners and purchased by individuals will somehow result in less demand for the studio vs the clientele that the commercial owner is attracting.

As of right now, I don't think there would be this grand or even this not-so-grande difference. If overnight all commercial renters released their points back to resale and disregarding the impact that would likely have on the value of resale points, those points would be purchased by A) existing DVC owners looking to expand, B) Disney exerting ROFR and C) buyers new to DVC.

Depending on the allotment of where the points end up, with A,B or C will influence how many point holders are seeking studio reservations. By the admission of consensus, group A will likely continue the trend of seeking a studio. Group B is probably a mixed bag, only Disney would be able to say as they know what they own and what people are asking for. Group C can also be a mixed bag. I just don't think there is evidence to say with any degree of certainty that halting the commercial renter will have more than a negligible impact on the availability of the studio unit.

The numbers are very easy. Commercial/spec renters almost exclusively book the cheapest studios, at what would be close to a 100% rate.

On average, a normal member books a studio <100% of the time. There will most certainly be a difference if large point owners who book close to 100% cheap studios exit the picture and are replaced by normal owners booking those same rooms less than 100% of the time. How big of a difference it will make we will have to wait and see.

 

[Sandisw]

Probably from these quotes

"The other category is someone who is doing it commercially. They own a lot of points and it’s a frequent occurrence. We are actively figuring out ways to go after that, and stop that to the best of our ability. Hopefully this is not a conversation we will be having in future years. We’re going to go after that and try to remedy it as best we can."

Senior Vice President and General Manager Bill Diercksen confirmed that Disney Vacation Club has "added resources to our core team at DVC in order to pursue this and make sure that it is fair" to everyday members. According to Yvonne Chang, Executive Director, Business Operations "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this. Hopefully by next year when we have this conversation, we will see some improvement.”

I took that line out because it wasn’t necessary or helpful.

 

[mkatsy]

That is wild but also doesn’t totally surprise me, especially if they are short dated reservations, as people might be trying to get it in a few more before the enforcement picks up? They may be hoping/assuming they can get another year of profits based on how slowly Disney has moved on enforcement in the past, or betting Disney won’t cancel booked reservations for the bad PR?

I have noticed a lot of rooms came available out towards 10-11m at VGC, but haven’t seen any new availability at BCV (where I’m looking to trade up room sizes) for the holiday season.

A lot of people are misinterpreting this (and I may be one of them, lol) but I think the point is that at the end of the day, as long as Disney is in favor with the county and state government, they have other tools at their disposal to create pain for the commercial renters who refuse to stop renting, unless those renters have been scrupulously to dot every I and cross every T— a lot of the folks who think they don’t have profit so long as their total income is lower than total dues or buy-in costs, or any of the other wild tax theories that we’ve seen floated on these boards through the years could have major tax liability, might not want to draw attention to themselves fighting Disney for their right to rent studios at $35/pt.

I agree that taxes are unrelated to the contract terms and I do not think Disney has any interest in trying to change the contract terms to make it impossible (or nearly impossible) to rent—but I can see why they would want to discourage expensive litigation and remind the amateur spec renters to exit quietly instead of getting into long legal battles that could come with tax (and criminal tax) risk.

I think Disney has previously signaled that personal use is narrower than many think. It doesn’t really matter what we think though, it matters what Disney thinks and what they decide to do about it. Really hoping we get more info tonight.

because nothing screams “the rich get richer” like the owners of a luxury vacation product dodging their taxes … pissed off people with a common enemy make a community feel “smaller” and more cohesive

 

[Tatebeck]

I have been booking 1BRs mostly, so I personally have been insulated from a lot of the effects from commercial renters, but I can definitely understand the frustration of the ownership base. By spec renting specific sets of rooms, commercial renters have increased competition for those rooms more than is natural.

Motivated by the highest $ per point rooms that they can get, they can use various methods to secure as many of the low cost studios as possible. This may include bots to book a split second before other owners, multiple people logged in all at once, or securing reservations whenever they are available and walking them forward. They are not looking for a single date, they are looking for anything they can rent for a high price and are snapping up these specific rooms at a higher rate than normal members booking with a specific date in mind or looking for more varied accommodations would be.

Either way, once those reservations are made and posted up for rent (and there have been a lot of these posted for rent in recent years) these commercial renters have effectively increased the competition for these rooms beyond the total number of members for that resort. The total number of people looking at staying in these rooms is now the all of the interested owners at that resort PLUS the number of interested renters looking that are not owners. Competition is increased and that room is now looked at by possibly thousands of more people than it would normally be.

All of this concludes with what we have now, which makes DVC start to fail a very important and very simple eye test. If it looks like renters who are not owners are able to stay in these hard to get rooms easier than the actual average owner at that very resort, then something has gone wrong. This is what they need to address in some way if they want to continue selling more and more DVC contracts instead of hotel rooms. Why buy a contract if it looks like via renting, it is easier to get the room you want.

They can crack down on commercial renters, change how booking reservations or walking works, adjust studio vs 1br point charts, or something else completely. But it is a very bad look for a very expensive product. And it may be hurting their hotel room side of the business as well.

 

[Sandisw]

Last year at the end of year condo meeting they said they didn't expect to need to be talking about rentals next year so I would expect the hammer to drop pretty soon, all things considered.

Here is the exact quote from the board member. Posting again for those not around last year.

 

[muppets3d]

They also stated that commercial renting was a small portion of members reservations too.

Per the contract that we all (including DVC) agrees to, it should be 0%.

 

[tx911]

All you have to do is look at rental broker websites, you'll see pretty much everything they're offering for rent is standard view studios.

The long and the short of it is - people renting points are staying in these rooms with significant frequency, rather than DVC owners and their families as the system was designed. That's not fair, and needs to change.

To add to this, if they take action against commercial renters, and it makes zero difference in studio availability, I'll still be ecstatic about it.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Fair point, I was in west LA a week or two ago, and it was pretty much lovely the entire time. I did not go down to the water, though, so microclimates etc. etc. etc.

It's definitely "June Gloom" season, and "May Gray" was particularly strong this year. I was just saying it's still not summer yet (come back to this conversation in August when it's 104), and we'll take 80-85 degrees inland, and 75-80 degrees on the water all day, every day (and we normally do, LOL).

 

[Sandisw]

Per the contract that we all (including DVC) agrees to, it should be 0%.

Yes..it should…but that statement alluded that what DVC sees happening right now as commercial is not a large % of overall reservations.

Some of us at the meeting had conversations after it one on one and they stuck to that same statement…