Unfriendly Skies for Family

[bgohre]

I can't quite decide if most of you are missing the point on purpose just to be "technical" or if you just don't get it.

First off....I get, they get, we all get you are not guaranteed seat 11b on your flight from Minot to Orlando. We all get that.

However, when you book your ticket with an airline, select your seat, you should have a reasonable expectation that your seat should stay the same. NOW, I know, about aircraft changes and other things can happen, and YES, if the family had looked online a little to check on their flights they would have probably caught and avoided this problem. The airline also could have helped fix the problem. There is some fault on both sides of this issue.

It is irrelevant to this discussion that children often sit alone when going unacommpanied, that is not the point. It is the parents decision to allow a child to fly alone based on the childs age/maturity and how they think they can handle the situation. That is not the case here. Children often get scared and confused and just because their parents are "somewhere" on the plane does not mean that the stress the parents/child went through in this situation is acceptable.

The parents probably have learned a very valuable lesson about checking seats prior to travel, but the airline should have done everything possilbe to get the 6 year old sitting by at least one of her parents.

 

[bavaria]

Have you read the hundreds of posts here over the years from parents who threaten to physically or verbally assault other passengers or airline personnel? have you seen it happen in real life? It does, over and over and over again.

Common courtesy seems to have been overriden by being a parent, it seems some days, according to some parents. Whatever happened to asking, instead of demanding? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for oneself, even if that means deplaning and taking a later flight?

Some parents seem to think that their children take priority over every other passenger and their needs, and many of us are tired of that attitude. Witness the SW EBCI threads - the one here was long but quite reasonable; the one on the Family Board became very ugly with threats and name calling.

If people would not assume that everyone is out to get them, or a pedophile, or useless in an emergency, and would treat others with the respect that they themselves are demanding, I think the responses would be different.

Every parent who has threatened others with vomit, or other bodily fluids, or choice words, or physical harm, here and in real life, does a great disservice. We understand that the situation is stressful. Most of the posters here are parents themselves. But it doesn't mean that one has to behave or threaten to behave in such a fashion. I know at least three posters who this year were denied or potentially denied boarding because of their behaviour.

You cannot demand respect from others if you are unwilling to offer it to them yourself.

 

[safetymom]

Have you read the hundreds of posts here over the years from parents who threaten to physically or verbally assault other passengers or airline personnel? have you seen it happen in real life? It does, over and over and over again.

Common courtesy seems to have been overriden by being a parent, it seems some days, according to some parents. Whatever happened to asking, instead of demanding? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for oneself, even if that means deplaning and taking a later flight?

Some parents seem to think that their children take priority over every other passenger and their needs, and many of us are tired of that attitude. Witness the SW EBCI threads - the one here was long but quite reasonable; the one on the Family Board became very ugly with threats and name calling.

If people would not assume that everyone is out to get them, or a pedophile, or useless in an emergency, and would treat others with the respect that they themselves are demanding, I think the responses would be different.

Every parent who has threatened others with vomit, or other bodily fluids, or choice words, or physical harm, here and in real life, does a great disservice. We understand that the situation is stressful. Most of the posters here are parents themselves. But it doesn't mean that one has to behave or threaten to behave in such a fashion. I know at least three posters who this year were denied or potentially denied boarding because of their behaviour.

You cannot demand respect from others if you are unwilling to offer it to them yourself.

Thank you for summing up the feelings of many of us here.

 

[Hannathy]

I can't quite decide if most of you are missing the point on purpose just to be "technical" or if you just don't get it.

but the airline should have done everything possilbe to get the 6 year old sitting by at least one of her parents.

No I think we get it or at least I get it, we just don't agree. I don't think the airline needs to do anything to get any child over 2-3 yrs old with their parents, especially on a plane that is smaller than a school bus! I'm from the generation that wasn't treated like a snow flake by my parents and don't treat my kids like that. They can sit in a seat in a public place for a couple of hours by themselves. It isn't like they are going to get lost, or go somewhere I'm not. If the parents want to try and ask nicely then someone usually will move but you just can't bet the farm on it or feel entitled to it just because you would like it to be so.

 

[NotUrsula]

...
However, when you book your ticket with an airline, select your seat, you should have a reasonable expectation that your seat should stay the same. ...

The airlines really disagree with you on that point, and they don't make any secret of it.

It is irrelevant to this discussion that children often sit alone when going unacommpanied, that is not the point. It is the parents decision to allow a child to fly alone based on the childs age/maturity and how they think they can handle the situation. That is not the case here. Children often get scared and confused and just because their parents are "somewhere" on the plane does not mean that the stress the parents/child went through in this situation is acceptable.

But is *is* acceptable under US federal law. Congress knows about this, they have looked at the question, and up til niw they have concluded that it is best to leave this decision up to the airlines. The airlines look at it in terms of how old children need to be to manage following evacuation directions, and what they have found in test after test is that if the child is school-aged, they can handle it without help. As I've said before, the only way that this one is going to ever change is if lawmakers vote to do so. (There is precedent in the UK. The rule there is that parents must be seated "within arms reach" of children under 12. Why? Because in tests the UK aviation authority found out that parents seated away from their school-aged kids tended to panic in an evacuation, go against the flow, and impede progress. Their kids, OTOH, do just what they are told and head for the exits immediately. The rule exists to keep the parents from bollixing up the evacuation.)

Parents probably have learned a very valuable lesson about checking seats prior to travel, but the airline should have done everything possilbe to get the 6 year old sitting by at least one of her parents.

What should they have done? They have NO legal power to make any passenger move in order to accomodate a child/parent pair unless the child is in a carseat. FA's can ask for volunteers, and they can sweeten the deal with free drinks, but that's about it.

On a plane that size, NO seat assignment is sacred, because the pilot can and will arrange passengers by size if it is necessary to balance the load. Doing so tends to create ill-will, however, so it isn't done unless the laws of physics warrant it.

 

[Jaymie]

I can't help but wonder why airlines allow to assign seats in advance, if the chances of losing those seats are so high. Why no just keep it the way it used to be years ago when your seat was assigned at the airport when you checked in. I realize it's a lot quicker to check in online, but when they seem to upset so many customers, is it really worth it?

I myself, teach my kids not to talk to strangers. NO EXCEPTIONS! Not at a playground, not in the mall and not on a plan. So why would I be ok with them being seperated from me on a plane? I realize most strangers aren't going to hurt my child and even less of them are pedophiles. But unfortunately, I can't tell the difference, so I try to always be on guard.

 

[bgohre]

Again, I don't think you are getting the jist of the parents arguement.

Let me try this a different way. If you were driving down the road in a 55 mph speed zone, accidently let the speedometer race to 56 and got pulled over and got a ticket. I would bet most everybody would be livid if it happened to them. But according to some of you, oh well, thats the rule. Just because the airlines have a rule, doesn't mean it's right.

You can spare me the travel 101 lesson. I've been in travel 14 years. While I may not know everything, I think I got the basics down.

Again, please read what I said. I said that pax have an expectation to the specific seat they booked (whether right or wrong). I did not say they are bound by the laws of our country to seat XYZ under punishment of death.

I made no mention about what is acceptable under US Federal Law. That wasn't my point. And you may need to clarify something for me. You said "They have NO legal power to make any passenger move in order to accomodate a child/parent pair unless the child is in a carseat." But when talking about the airlines and seats you said "On carriers that assign seats, you are at the mercy of the airline when it comes to vacated seat assignments. ALL of them reserve the right to vacate those assignments at will, and don't kid yourself that they won't ever do it to you." So they can't do anything, but wait they can.

Truth is, the airline could have asked passengers to move. I will say, based on the article I do not know if they did that, they very well could have. Like someone else said. The article is written from one point of view so you never know what really happened.

 

[bgohre]

I myself, teach my kids not to talk to strangers. NO EXCEPTIONS! Not at a playground, not in the mall and not on a plan. So why would I be ok with them being seperated from me on a plane? I realize most strangers aren't going to hurt my child and even less of them are pedophiles. But unfortunately, I can't tell the difference, so I try to always be on guard.

Cha-Ching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bgohre]

No I think we get it or at least I get it, we just don't agree. I don't think the airline needs to do anything to get any child over 2-3 yrs old with their parents, especially on a plane that is smaller than a school bus! I'm from the generation that wasn't treated like a snow flake by my parents and don't treat my kids like that. They can sit in a seat in a public place for a couple of hours by themselves. It isn't like they are going to get lost, or go somewhere I'm not. If the parents want to try and ask nicely then someone usually will move but you just can't bet the farm on it or feel entitled to it just because you would like it to be so.

Then we will never agree. Especially when there is no reason for them to be seperated in the first place.

It has nothing to do with them getting lost or go someplace your not, it's more of an issue that you want to spend time with your child (at least I do) so you want to sit with them and be with them as they take in new experiences like flying in an airplane, riding a bus, train or whatever else is new to them. I enjoy watching my child experience new things, guess I'm alone on that one here.

 

[crashbb]

Then we will never agree. Especially when there is no reason for them to be seperated in the first place.

It has nothing to do with them getting lost or go someplace your not, it's more of an issue that you want to spend time with your child (at least I do) so you want to sit with them and be with them as they take in new experiences like flying in an airplane, riding a bus, train or whatever else is new to them. I enjoy watching my child experience new things, guess I'm alone on that one here.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to suggest that people who aren't outraged whenever a child is seated away from their parents are bad parents.

 

[maxiesmom]

It has nothing to do with them getting lost or go someplace your not, it's more of an issue that you want to spend time with your child (at least I do) so you want to sit with them and be with them as they take in new experiences like flying in an airplane, riding a bus, train or whatever else is new to them. I enjoy watching my child experience new things, guess I'm alone on that one here.

But it is only a new experience during their first plane ride, technically speaking. So I'm not buying that as an argument. I do undestand wanting to sit with your family just for the fun of it. But if I got to spend time with them at Disney World because we spent time apart on an airplane, I think it is worth it.

Most 6yr olds are in school all day far away from their parents. I don't think the majority of them would be incapable of spending a plane ride seated away from them.

 

[NotUrsula]

I made no mention about what is acceptable under US Federal Law. That wasn't my point. And you may need to clarify something for me. You said "They have NO legal power to make any passenger move in order to accomodate a child/parent pair unless the child is in a carseat." But when talking about the airlines and seats you said "On carriers that assign seats, you are at the mercy of the airline when it comes to vacated seat assignments. ALL of them reserve the right to vacate those assignments at will, and don't kid yourself that they won't ever do it to you." So they can't do anything, but wait they can.

What I mean is that they can declare all seat assignments void at will, in which case no one on the plane has a superior claim to a particular seat unless his tush is already in it.

They can also declare in advance a deadline after which seats assignments not yet claimed in person for a particular flight will be vacated -- typically this is 10-20 minutes before scheduled departure.

However, *if* some passengers have assigned seats that have been honored and claimed, the airline cannot decide that one particular passenger (who has met all current conditions for a valid assignment) has to give up a claimed assigned seat just because another passenger wants it. They can only selectively order passengers to move if they have an FAA-mandated safety regulation to enforce by doing so, and right now the only rules like that that exist are the exit row requirements and the rule about carseats.

I entirely understand your point that it is your opinion that being separated (within the same cabin) from a 6yo is unacceptable. I think it's unfortunate myself. However, to be frank, the airlines don't give a flying fig about our opinions, and neither does the US government as the FAA regulations now stand.

Sure, it would be NICE if we could wave our pixie wands and make the airlines do what we want them to with regard to seating assignments for children, but that's not the reality of air travel in America. On this board we try to deal in what is, not what we think it SHOULD be, especially when not knowing the real rules can make for an upsetting and embarassing travel situation.

Like I said, if you or any other American wants to change the rules re: contiguous seating for children, the only realistic avenue by which to do so is to write to Congress, preferably to the members of the Aviation Subcommittee:
http://transportation.house.gov/subcommittees/aviation_members.aspx

Absent a change in the law, we'll all have to continue to depend upon the kindness of strangers when the airline fails us (those same strangers who so many of us will not let our children speak to under ANY circumstances, apparently.)

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Also, just FYI for anyone who is interested, the US carseat rule is 14 CFR 121.311. It can be found at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/janqtr/pdf/14cfr121.311.pdf

 

[Hannathy]

I myself, teach my kids not to talk to strangers. NO EXCEPTIONS! Not at a playground, not in the mall and not on a plan. So why would I be ok with them being seperated from me on a plane? I realize most strangers aren't going to hurt my child and even less of them are pedophiles. But unfortunately, I can't tell the difference, so I try to always be on guard.

How sad for your children. They are missing out on a wide world out there of people with wonderful experiences and stories to share. My kids talk to everyone always have and they have learned some very varied facts and trivia that I would never have been able to tell them. At airshows my DS has talked to WWII vets and pilots and now knows things that aren't written in books and luckily will have a young person to retell as these vets pass away. My DD has learned facts about shells from University professors who also happen to be collecting shells at the Jersey shore. They have learned about customs and foods from visitors from other countries as we ride the monorail or wait in the terminal. Or sit next to on the plane! The list goes on and on.

Our rule has always been and will always be Talk to who ever you want to BUT go no where with anyone!

 

[bgohre]

But it is only a new experience during their first plane ride, technically speaking. So I'm not buying that as an argument. I do undestand wanting to sit with your family just for the fun of it. But if I got to spend time with them at Disney World because we spent time apart on an airplane, I think it is worth it.

Most 6yr olds are in school all day far away from their parents. I don't think the majority of them would be incapable of spending a plane ride seated away from them.

It has nothing to do with whether they are capable or not. That is irrelavent.

Take a 2 year old on a plane then take the same child when they are 5 and tell me that it's not a new experience for them. Even if it's not the "first" time it's a new and exciting experience for them.

 

[bgohre]

How sad for your children. They are missing out on a wide world out there of people with wonderful experiences and stories to share. My kids talk to everyone always have and they have learned some very varied facts and trivia that I would never have been able to tell them. At airshows my DS has talked to WWII vets and pilots and now knows things that aren't written in books and luckily will have a young person to retell as these vets pass away. My DD has learned facts about shells from University professors who also happen to be collecting shells at the Jersey shore. They have learned about customs and foods from visitors from other countries as we ride the monorail or wait in the terminal. Or sit next to on the plane! The list goes on and on.

Our rule has always been and will always be Talk to who ever you want to BUT go no where with anyone!

Wow..you just don't get it do you.

 

[bgohre]

Sorry...would love to stay and keep this discussion going but my work day is almost over.

TTFN

 

[Jaymie]

How sad for your children.

No need to worry about my kids, they live perfectly full and happy lives. They learn plenty from teachers, coaches and friends in their lives.

But you make a good point, would I let them listen to a story from a WWII vet? While I was with them, probably, depending on the setting. Would I leave them even somewhat unattended with that WWII war vet? Not a chance. But to each their own.

On a funny note, my brother was hoping to get seperated from his daughter (3) on their flight. One - to get a break from her and Two-to see how the poor person next to her handled the situation.

If I were travelling without kids, I would move seats so that a parent could sit with their kid. I wonder why the older couple wasn't willing to seperate so one of the parents could sit with the 6 yr old? Not that they HAVE too. I wouldn't want to sit next to someone else's kid without the parent around too.

 

[Tozzie]

Wow..you just don't get it do you.

It is you that doesn't "get it" you are presenting a side of an issue and there are people that don't agree with it, it isn't about getting it because by your posts "getting it" means agreeing with your stance and many people don't.

 

[jondvl]

We are planning a trip for August 2010. At first my wife wanted nothing to do with flying. After quite a few hours it would be nicer to fly down to get there quicker and not be stuck in the car with 3 ids(10,7,5) itwould be worth it.

Reading these posts I do not see where it would be worth the possible problems to fly. This would be our first family vacation like this and first time flying

 

[kaytieeldr]

This is exactly why I avoid the Transportation area. I am leaving now! You can have your party!!!

It's regrettable that, when you don't get responses you like, you leave instead of remaining in the conversation.