Unfriendly Skies for Family

[nono]

Truly, I don't see why. If they had declined the offer/request to change seats, why would you not have moved up to the front seats with your daughter and let your husband stay in row 11?

Hey my post was already getting long ....I skipped over the part where my dd would have probably wigged if one of us separated from her. Having both parents together was a rarity in those days, so she really looked forward to it. (And, I'm one of those people that can't stand a screaming child on a plane... . Goes double when it is mine!)

As I alluded to in line 1 of the post, nowadays, with 2 kids, and a husband that travels way less, your solution would totally work. Never understimate the joy a baby brother can bring to change the whole family dynamic.

But yeah, in a situation that would totally not work for our family, I'd rather deplane and start a new adventure than make the rest of my fellow passengers bend to fit my needs. Now, if I were in the Guangzhou airport during fall trade show time, I might have a different answer...but generally...

 

[Tinker*Shell*Bell]

I think part of the "problem" on this thread is the different ways of looking at this issue, no one is wrong in what they are saying, but the interpretation is getting heated.

Group 1 is "just the facts ma'am" And nothing you are saying is wrong. You are all about the truth and the facts and the law. I get that your idea is to make the unaware more informed. I completely understand that.

Group 2 however is not talking about the rules, laws and facts. It is parents with children who are saying "this is stupid"...not that group 1 is stupid- but that the airlines saying "a 3yo is old enough to fly in a row with strangers is ok"- is stupid. Sure the rules and laws say that nothing is guaranteed, but I think it is still stupid.

I appreciate group 1 letting people know anything is possible. I am however having a hard time with this "quit whining you aren't that special and neither is your kid" attitude. I would be freaking out, panic attack, if my 4yo had to sit anywhere but beside me. Not because of child molesters, or them throwing up on someone...but just because she is my small child and I do not expect strangers to care for her during a 4 hour flight. She needs snacks opened, crayons picked up and will talk constantly. She would be upset being completely ignored, and it is not the seat mates job to entertain her. I know that the airlines do not have to do a damn thing about it, but that does not make it a good situation.

I would like to think I would de-plane if I was not seated beside her, but I can not say because it has not happened to us. I have been last minute assigned away from my 7, 13 and 14 yo's (equip change.) That did not make me too nervous, just a little, but the gate attendant was nice enough to help us. And because of a thread just like this one (but 3 yrs ago!) I knew what to ask, how to ask for it, and was able to get my family back in seats together.

So group 1- THANKS, but a little "we understand" goes a long way to let people hear the facts. The hard line "here's the rules" offends people...which makes people not read the accurate information you are trying so desperately to share with them.

 

[Jaymie]

If you did find yourselves seperated from your children on a flight, and couldn't get seats together, would you deplane and take a later flight potentially at your own cost to ensure seats together?

I think that I probably would deplane.

Now, another question for parents, especially those concerned about being seated next to their child. Would you change seats and sit away from your child so that another parent could sit next to theirs? Would you move away from you child so that Jaymie or bghore or any other poster could sit next to their child, while you sat apart from yours?

I would never expect or even accept that a parent be seperated from their child so that I could sit with mine. I think I would deplane first. But if it were just me & DH or just myself solo, I would move seats so that a parent could be seated with their child. In all honesty, I don't think that I would thrilled about sitting next to a child without their parent around. Like another poster said, I don't want to have to keep someone else's kid entertained for an entire flight, opening snacks, picking up dropped toys, etc. Plus, with my luck, that kid would throw up on me.

 

[Jaymie]

I think part of the "problem" on this thread is the different ways of looking at this issue, no one is wrong in what they are saying, but the interpretation is getting heated.

Group 1 is "just the facts ma'am" And nothing you are saying is wrong. You are all about the truth and the facts and the law. I get that your idea is to make the unaware more informed. I completely understand that.

Group 2 however is not talking about the rules, laws and facts. It is parents with children who are saying "this is stupid"...not that group 1 is stupid- but that the airlines saying "a 3yo is old enough to fly in a row with strangers is ok"- is stupid. Sure the rules and laws say that nothing is guaranteed, but I think it is still stupid.

I appreciate group 1 letting people know anything is possible. I am however having a hard time with this "quit whining you aren't that special and neither is your kid" attitude. I would be freaking out, panic attack, if my 4yo had to sit anywhere but beside me. Not because of child molesters, or them throwing up on someone...but just because she is my small child and I do not expect strangers to care for her during a 4 hour flight. She needs snacks opened, crayons picked up and will talk constantly. She would be upset being completely ignored, and it is not the seat mates job to entertain her. I know that the airlines do not have to do a damn thing about it, but that does not make it a good situation.

I would like to think I would de-plane if I was not seated beside her, but I can not say because it has not happened to us. I have been last minute assigned away from my 7, 13 and 14 yo's (equip change.) That did not make me too nervous, just a little, but the gate attendant was nice enough to help us. And because of a thread just like this one (but 3 yrs ago!) I knew what to ask, how to ask for it, and was able to get my family back in seats together.

So group 1- THANKS, but a little "we understand" goes a long way to let people hear the facts. The hard line "here's the rules" offends people...which makes people not read the accurate information you are trying so desperately to share with them.

I couldn't agree more. I don't think group 1 is wrong, they simply have a different point of view. I have a problem with my kid sitting away for me or DH, others don't. It's really not that big of a deal. If the situation arises where I get seperated, I'll deal with it however I think is best for my family.

The closest we've ever been to getting seperated was once on NWA, DH got seperated, but I think we knew he wouldn't be seated with us from the get go. I asked the GA if there was any chance that we could sit together and they made it happen. Another family was in the same boat but all 3 of them were seperated. I told the GA to make sure one of the parents got with their kid before they put DH with us (but I'm sure that a given). They were all together and so were we.

Of course with all these discussions about it and how rare it is, you know I'm going to get seperated from DS5 on Tuesday when we leave for AKL!!

 

[MerryFlora]

I've been flying with my daughter for 10 years. Never have we been seperated. I would deplane if we were.

I only use airlines that let you assign seats when you book, usually this costs me more $ but its the only way for me. I continually check my flights for changes.

If I purchase row 15 seats A,B,C. Thats what I expect. I dont see it as a "request" Those are my seats and they are printed on my ticket. When I've seen attendants trying to get families together I assumed they just did not choose their seats at booking. I really dont understand how that can happen otherwise. This thread has really opened by eyes. IMO, its very poor customer service to take someones seat away if they are holding a specific ticket for it in their hand. This would never happen at a concert or a ballgame!

 

[DebbieB]

I've been flying with my daughter for 10 years. Never have we been seperated. I would deplane if we were.

I only use airlines that let you assign seats when you book, usually this costs me more $ but its the only way for me. I continually check my flights for changes.

If I purchase row 15 seats A,B,C. Thats what I expect. I dont see it as a "request" Those are my seats and they are printed on my ticket. When I've seen attendants trying to get families together I assumed they just did not choose their seats at booking. I really dont understand how that can happen otherwise. This thread has really opened by eyes. IMO, its very poor customer service to take someones seat away if they are holding a specific ticket for it in their hand. This would never happen at a concert or a ballgame!

What happens sometimes is a change in equipment. It happens either in advance or sometimes last minute. If they go to a smaller plane, seats are eliminated. You may have reserved a seat that no longer exists. It doesn't have to do with customer service taking a seat away, it just doesn't exist anymore. If you reserved 15 A, B, C and that row doesn't exist on the new plane, they are going to move your party into open seats in the new configuration. If there are no seats together, they are not going to start moving around other people to fit you in. Most of the time it can be worked out onboard. I have switched seats many times to accomodate a family, assuming they are nice about it. If they get demanding, I may stand my ground and not move.

It could happen at a concert or ballgame, say a seat was broken or there was some kind of maintenance problem in your section like a leaking pipe.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Hey my post was already getting long ....

Ah, I see you post very rarely*. There's no such thing as a "too long" post here on the DIS

*Could also be perceived as you have an outside life, since we joined the DIS the same month but compare our number of posts. Sometimes it seems the DIS is my life

 

[kaytieeldr]

I would be freaking out, panic attack, if my 4yo had to sit anywhere but beside me. Not because of child molesters, or them throwing up on someone...but just because she is my small child and I do not expect strangers to care for her during a 4 hour flight

Thank you for a very calm, reasonable, and realistic response

 

[kaytieeldr]

I would never expect or even accept that a parent be seperated from their child so that I could sit with mine. I think I would deplane first.

Another reasonable response/reaction; however, you should not need to do this. The other party should consider deplaning, not you.

 

[bavaria]

Ah, I see you post very rarely*. There's no such thing as a "too long" post here on the DIS

*Could also be perceived as you have an outside life, since we joined the DIS the same month but compare our number of posts. Sometimes it seems the DIS is my life

Pssst you're only looking at the post count from this one website

HI NONO! nice to see you....

 

[safetymom]

I think part of the "problem" on this thread is the different ways of looking at this issue, no one is wrong in what they are saying, but the interpretation is getting heated.

Group 1 is "just the facts ma'am" And nothing you are saying is wrong. You are all about the truth and the facts and the law. I get that your idea is to make the unaware more informed. I completely understand that.

Group 2 however is not talking about the rules, laws and facts. It is parents with children who are saying "this is stupid"...not that group 1 is stupid- but that the airlines saying "a 3yo is old enough to fly in a row with strangers is ok"- is stupid. Sure the rules and laws say that nothing is guaranteed, but I think it is still stupid.

I appreciate group 1 letting people know anything is possible. I am however having a hard time with this "quit whining you aren't that special and neither is your kid" attitude. I would be freaking out, panic attack, if my 4yo had to sit anywhere but beside me. Not because of child molesters, or them throwing up on someone...but just because she is my small child and I do not expect strangers to care for her during a 4 hour flight. She needs snacks opened, crayons picked up and will talk constantly. She would be upset being completely ignored, and it is not the seat mates job to entertain her. I know that the airlines do not have to do a damn thing about it, but that does not make it a good situation.

I would like to think I would de-plane if I was not seated beside her, but I can not say because it has not happened to us. I have been last minute assigned away from my 7, 13 and 14 yo's (equip change.) That did not make me too nervous, just a little, but the gate attendant was nice enough to help us. And because of a thread just like this one (but 3 yrs ago!) I knew what to ask, how to ask for it, and was able to get my family back in seats together.

So group 1- THANKS, but a little "we understand" goes a long way to let people hear the facts. The hard line "here's the rules" offends people...which makes people not read the accurate information you are trying so desperately to share with them.

I also think that group 2 needs to say we understand also. If you arrive late to the gate, didn't book seats together,etc. you need to understand that some people will not switch with you just because you demand it.

 

[Lady Lady]

I have flown the Dulles to Allentown route several times. Colgan Air planes are 2 and 1 configuration. But, you get your seating number at the original airport. Since this was a connection, the only way your seat was given up was you were late getting on the plane and the plane already had made its seat adjustment for weight or any other reason.

The plane can be full and this does not mean that they oversold the plane. I find this happens mostly on the 10:30 pm flight. People who missed other connections are trying to make the next flight or even the last flight of the day. These people have to wait until the gate attendants make final call to see if someone else has missed that connection, which is usually just 5 minutes before they close the door to the plane.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

I think part of the "problem" on this thread is the different ways of looking at this issue, no one is wrong in what they are saying, but the interpretation is getting heated.

Group 1 is "just the facts ma'am" And nothing you are saying is wrong. You are all about the truth and the facts and the law. I get that your idea is to make the unaware more informed. I completely understand that.

Group 2 however is not talking about the rules, laws and facts. It is parents with children who are saying "this is stupid"...not that group 1 is stupid- but that the airlines saying "a 3yo is old enough to fly in a row with strangers is ok"- is stupid. Sure the rules and laws say that nothing is guaranteed, but I think it is still stupid.

I appreciate group 1 letting people know anything is possible. I am however having a hard time with this "quit whining you aren't that special and neither is your kid" attitude. I would be freaking out, panic attack, if my 4yo had to sit anywhere but beside me. Not because of child molesters, or them throwing up on someone...but just because she is my small child and I do not expect strangers to care for her during a 4 hour flight. She needs snacks opened, crayons picked up and will talk constantly. She would be upset being completely ignored, and it is not the seat mates job to entertain her. I know that the airlines do not have to do a damn thing about it, but that does not make it a good situation.

I would like to think I would de-plane if I was not seated beside her, but I can not say because it has not happened to us. I have been last minute assigned away from my 7, 13 and 14 yo's (equip change.) That did not make me too nervous, just a little, but the gate attendant was nice enough to help us. And because of a thread just like this one (but 3 yrs ago!) I knew what to ask, how to ask for it, and was able to get my family back in seats together.

So group 1- THANKS, but a little "we understand" goes a long way to let people hear the facts. The hard line "here's the rules" offends people...which makes people not read the accurate information you are trying so desperately to share with them.

I agree. Also, the "so don't fly then" puzzles me. I HAVE signed the flyers bill of rights and DID call my congressmen.

I understand that the rules state that I am not guaranteed a seat or even a plane ride for that matter. Who would be happy to be put in a van and driven to their location? Is it the rules, yes, do I have to like it, no.

I too would be very unhappy if one of my DD's under 10 was sitting alone. I'm sure some of the hardliner's here wouldn't appreciate my "threatening" them by telling them she'll get sick but if I'm not watching what she is eating, drinking or getting too warm she may just do that.

It is my job to Parent which means correcting her behavior and depending on her age, time of day, mood, or weather delay's can be no problem or me watching like a hawk she doesn't kick the seats (smaller children will often shift themselves in the seat by pushing off the back in front of them with their feet, I spent an entire flight years ago with my hand on her leg).

No one wants unruly loud children on a flight but how can I maintain control if I can't make eye contact? I completely agree with the statement bolded above. This is my job and to paraphase the President's mother, it is no picnic for me either some times.

I do check right up until the morning of departure but, guess what, sometimes even the airline doesn't know they are paving the airport and I have gone right up to the minute with a connecting flights.

To Bavaria: If a later flight were available at no cost, yes I would deplane without hesitation. However, I wouldn't give up an aisle seat for another parent for a middle or window, that wouldn't work for me.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Would you mind citing where anyone stated that having a valid airline reservation doesn't mean one is guaranteed air passage, that transport by van would be possible?

Ideally, even if conditions necessitated being seated away from one's children, the parent would be aware enough to not provide the child with an excess of any ingestible that might cause illness.

Ideally, too, a child will know by the age of five or six what constitutes proper (i.e. respectful of others) behavior in public arenas.

A child shifting themselves by pushing off the seatback in front of them is not the same as repeatedly kicking the back of that seat.

Too, "controlling" one's child could be arranged/discussed/handled long before ever boarding the plane: "inside voices", "stay in your seat with the seatbelt fastened", "can you please get my mom?" (to a seatmate), etc.

To Bavaria: If a later flight were available at no cost,

It would likely NOT be at no cost to the passenger. The passenger chooses to deplane; at that late date/time, the fare would tend to be relatively high. Bavaria has stated repeatedly, in this thread and others, that she has more than once found it necessary to deplane for her own comfort and at her own expense.

 

[DebbieB]

I too would be very unhappy if one of my DD's under 10 was sitting alone. I'm sure some of the hardliner's here wouldn't appreciate my "threatening" them by telling them she'll get sick but if I'm not watching what she is eating, drinking or getting too warm she may just do that.

There are 2 ways to say that. You could say "would you mind switching with me, my daughter sometimes get sick when flying" vs "I have to sit with my daughter, so you have to switch or you'll have to take care of her if she gets sick". I'm sure the first one is more likely to get someone to be willing to help. Also, you should try to switch to the less desirable area. If you are in the last row and your daughter is in the first row, you are more likely to be successful if you ask someone in the last row if they mind switching to the front vs asking someone in the front to move to the back.

 

[crashbb]

To Bavaria: If a later flight were available at no cost, yes I would deplane without hesitation. However, I wouldn't give up an aisle seat for another parent for a middle or window, that wouldn't work for me.

So, presumably you wouldn't ask someone else to move so that you could sit next to your child.

In that case, what would you do if you were seated away from your child and taking another flight would not be at no cost?

Just curious.

I might disagree that a 10 year old isn't old enough to know that they should/shouldn't eat or drink in order not to get sick, but fully support your right to your opinion. Just curious about what you'd do if you were separated from her.

 

[Tinker*Shell*Bell]

I also think that group 2 needs to say we understand also. If you arrive late to the gate, didn't book seats together,etc. you need to understand that some people will not switch with you just because you demand it.

I completely agree with that! No one has the right to demand anything on any public transportation...I can demand my kids move to new seats in MY car...all the rest needs to be please and thank you and fingers crossed

And no one HAS to move for me and my child. I will however offer up my row 2 aisle seat for their row 25 center if it means I can sit with my dd.

 

[bumbershoot]

Group 1 is "just the facts ma'am" And nothing you are saying is wrong. You are all about the truth and the facts and the law. I get that your idea is to make the unaware more informed. I completely understand that.

Group 2 however is not talking about the rules, laws and facts. It is parents with children who are saying "this is stupid"...not that group 1 is stupid- but that the airlines saying "a 3yo is old enough to fly in a row with strangers is ok"- is stupid. Sure the rules and laws say that nothing is guaranteed, but I think it is still stupid.

And there's Group 3, who knows that those are the rules, has kids and knows that crazy things CAN happen, but doesn't care to *worry* about it.

If something silly happened like DS being seated away from us, I'd stay calm and explain the situation.

DS cannot have many things they serve on planes, but even at 5 he knows to NOT EAT things unless he absolutely knows they are OK. He isn't reading yet, which means he doesn't eat anything that I don't give him. Oh it will be nice once he's reading!

He adores chatting with adults, unless they creep him out, and he tends to follow the signals of adults well in terms of how talkative he can be (the signals of fellow kids, not so much). Even if I couldn't get it worked out before takeoff, I'd just do my best to explain it to him, give him the snacks I have, make sure his Earplanes are in, and expect it would get worked out once we were at cruising altitude.

IF for some reason he got really freaked out by all of this and cried...well honestly, I expect it would be worked out even quicker by the time we were allowed to move around...

(Despite my rep on the Dis), in person I'm actually a very chipper and smiley person, and I LOVE flying (except for when there's turbulence, then I just want to have my own freakout and scream and cry and faint), and even though on our last flight my son actually threw up* 5 seconds before the seatbelt lights went on for descent (horrid situation, I tell you), the people around us were wonderful and sweet and gave him gum and sweet smiles and accepted the apologies I was repeating over and over and over... So I am quite sure that there would be someone on the plane who would be happy to help us out by swapping seats, if for some reason we were separated.

But since I do check flights online often, to make sure things are as they were the last time I checked, any changes made would likely be fixed before getting to the airport. And we almost always get to the airport hours early, so there's time to fix things there. I don't like surprises, so I do my darnedest to make sure everything is as it should be.



As a member of Group 3, I just do NOT see the point of worrying ourselves sick over all of this!





*he was overtired, had been sick but got better before our trip, then got sick again during our trip it turned out (though we didn't know it until pretty much that moment), then he thought he lost an Earplane just before descent and was scared of the ear pain he thought was coming, and all of that caused a huge crying jag which then caused him to throw up. On my husband.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

Would you mind citing where anyone stated that having a valid airline reservation doesn't mean one is guaranteed air passage, that transport by van would be possible?

Ideally, even if conditions necessitated being seated away from one's children, the parent would be aware enough to not provide the child with an excess of any ingestible that might cause illness.

Ideally, too, a child will know by the age of five or six what constitutes proper (i.e. respectful of others) behavior in public arenas.

A child shifting themselves by pushing off the seatback in front of them is not the same as repeatedly kicking the back of that seat.

Too, "controlling" one's child could be arranged/discussed/handled long before ever boarding the plane: "inside voices", "stay in your seat with the seatbelt fastened", "can you please get my mom?" (to a seatmate), etc.

It would likely NOT be at no cost to the passenger. The passenger chooses to deplane; at that late date/time, the fare would tend to be relatively high. Bavaria has stated repeatedly, in this thread and others, that she has more than once found it necessary to deplane for her own comfort and at her own expense.

I gave the seat pushing back example because it fit the "you just never know". It only happened the one time but it was unexpected. I had never seen that behavior before or since. She was just the right size to slide forward. But it does show that not all behavior can be "arranged/discussed/handled long before ever boarding the plane". That is a subjective judgement call that only the parent can make. "Ideally" I'd have perfect children but since I don't it is my job to monitor them.

I'm sincerely glad Bavaria can deplane at her own expense but my family of four could not do so.

The transport by van example was used to demonstrate that I am aware of the only guarantee if from here to there. I KNOW you aren't guaranteed a seat. It happened to me twice with connecting flights. Ticks you off when your luggage beats you home. My point is both the kids and I are experienced travelers but children are unpredictable. If you're kids are perfect, I'm happy for you but alas, I do not. Don't you love the parents who don't react when their kids is running around screaming and bumping into people?

I completely agree with that! No one has the right to demand anything on any public transportation...I can demand my kids move to new seats in MY car...all the rest needs to be please and thank you and fingers crossed

And no one HAS to move for me and my child. I will however offer up my row 2 aisle seat for their row 25 center if it means I can sit with my dd.

Same here.

I also think that group 2 needs to say we understand also. If you arrive late to the gate, didn't book seats together,etc. you need to understand that some people will not switch with you just because you demand it.

I have just as much impatience with the unprepared as anyone else. Read the signs people!!! However, a little empathy goes a long way. I followed a hard of hearing elderly couple in a walker through security a few months ago. Really slowed everything down but we were early and I made DD help them line up their slip on shoes. At least they weren't tied on!

But we don't know looking at people what happened or why they changed seats.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

It would help if the more frequent traveler's in Group 1 understood why parents react so strongly to being separated and why we think it is idiotic that a computer program can not link a child with a parent so that in those cases where rearrangements are made they are kept together.

1) Instinct. The mommy radar is active at all times. 24/7 Like I said in a previous post it is my job. If I don't know what is going on I can't help/fix/change their behaviour.

2) It is the law. Can't leave small children unattended in everyday life. In the car, at the library, at home. It is drilled into us that you don't leave your child unattened anywhere. "Megan's Law" for one example. It is one of the reason's new flyer's are so shocked and thrown for a loop when it happens. Everywhere else it is illegal.

3) Cultural. I would never expect other parents to have water for my child at a soccer game. I am expected to register my children for school not have the school district hunt me down etc. The little girl that was swiped a couple of weeks ago walking just a few blocks home. She was unattended and one commentator went off on the parents.