Saying grace...

[auntpolly]

Well being an agnostic and not an aethist, if you are right I will appreciate those silent prayers!

So, we're cool then? -- i don't think I want to be on your bad side...

 

[mickeyfan2]

Okay, folks, this has really gotten out of hand.

Allow me to clarify further:

I was not trying to stir any pot with this post, at least not intentionally. It seems a lot of people have jumped to some conclusions thinking I am attacking their religious beliefs. That simply isn't true. I don't have a problem with any of you believing in whatever you believe in, really I don't. The issue at hand is one of bringing it into my home when you know how I feel about it.

I never said I would rudely get up from the table and walk away at someone else's home. If these were people who were not aware of my feelings, yes, I would sit quietly, but not participate. If questioned on this, I would quietly say I don't believe in it. That usually settles things without incident. If that's not acceptable to the host and they choose to make an issue of it, I would thank them for the invitation, tell them I do not wish to make them uncomfortable, and leave if they wish. That has never happened.

In almost every situation, the family or friends are fully aware of my feelings and understand that I will join them once they get grace out of the way. I usually go wash my hands, as much in preparation for eating as anything else. It's my way of giving them the opportunity to do what they want without feeling awkward about me sitting or standing there. On occasion, one or two family members have insisted they wait for me even after being told I do not do grace or prayers. This was just them being the idiots they are because those particular people aren't even religious.

Quite often I do not want to accept invitations for these dinners and that is for a number of reasons I won't bore you with. Infortunately, I have my wife to consider and she comes from a big family (I don't).

I also stated that if they need to pray before they eat in my home, I have no problem if they do so to themselves and not expect me to join in. Unfortunately, some people feel God isn't paying attention unless they make a little show of it. That, in my home, I have a problem with. I don't have much say in who my wife invites, but they all know how I feel about religion. To insist that they openly say grace anyhow, is rude, and a number of you have agreed with that. When I said they should take their prayer outside or all the way home was more out of frustration than what I would actually do. Perhaps I was wrong in expressing myself that way.

I have found that many, not all, but many Christians can be judgemental and many replies on this thread have proven that. Many are also very nice people and consider me their friend even if I am a heathen. They respect my beliefs and stay out of my face with theirs, even though I am open to friendly discussion about the entire issue. I include among those friends a priest, a bishop, and several ministers. Even though we are at odds regarding religion, we remain friends because we respect each other as people. As one might expect, their answers to my issue aren't as objective as I would like, so I reached out to the DIS members for some ideas.

When I started this post I was simply looking for some objective input on how to properly handle the issue of people wanting to say grace in my home. It bothers me that I have created a format for some pretty heavy bickering and that certainly was not my intention. I had hoped for a handfull of replies in which I might find a viable solution for my problem.

As for weddings and funerals (and I'll add christenings), I do not, as a rule, attend church service weddings, funerals, or christenings and while my friends my not like that, they understand. On the rare occasion I must attend a wedding (daughter or son, someday grandchildren) I keep a low profile and do not pretend to be a Christian for the moment. For funerals, I do not attend the church portion and quietly refrain from prayer at graveside. For christenings, I absolutely do not believe in the practice and do not attend, ever, even for my own children and grandchildren. That used to shock a lot of people, but they have come to deal with it.

Regarding the friends who asked me to be godfather to their son, I was, indeed, flattered and did politely decline. I just found it totally out of character for devout Christians to make such a request to someone they knew to be a devout heathen. I guess I tend to look for logic in too many things. By the way, that friendship dwindled because they could not carry on a simple conversation without reference to "the lord." Believe what you want, but please, stay out of my face with it.

I would ask all of you to know that heathens, athiests, and agnostics are people, too. We're not evil and we usually lead good lives. We don't go out trying to recruit members for there is no membership. It's simply what we do or don't believe in in our daily lives. We are as patriotic as anyone and are as willing to help someone in need as anyone. No religion on earth has the market on goodness. It comes in all shapes and sizes... and beliefs. Please accept us for what we are. After all, isn't that the Christian thing to do?

It is obvious that you wife is Christian (Christened you kids etc.), how does she feel about saying grace?

 

[SwedishMeatball]

George, I was under the impression from your original post that you were looking specifically for opinions about dealing with this Thursday as a guest.

 

[goofygirl]

For christenings, I absolutely do not believe in the practice and do not attend, ever, even for my own children and grandchildren

Sorry, but I think this is rather cold and selfish. The Christening is about your children, not you. You should put them before you, and your principles.

Are your children married? Did they have church weddings? Did you decide to skip those too?

 

[Alex2kMommy]

George, I was under the impression from your original post that you were looking specifically for opinions about dealing with this Thursday as a guest.

How interesting. I didn't have that impression at all. My impression was that he was mostly concerned about guests in HIS home who insist on saying formal grace despite the host's known wishes. He said he has no problem with guests saying grace silently him/herself, just when they insist on it being said aloud and everyone must participate.

Polite guests, whether they are friends, acquaintances or relatives, take the cue from the host family. My guess is that some of George's DW's family are impolite guests, and take several opportunities to let him know their disapproval of him.

George, I wish you patience and grace at Thanksgiving. Don't let 'em get to you, just love them (or tolerate them) in spite of themselves. These people obviously mean something to your DW, and you are a richer man for having her in your life.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

I thought I'd ask this since the holiday season is upon us and a lot of people tend to get religious for their two or three times a year.

I'm not a religious person... at all. When we are at dinner at other peoples' houses or functions and they choose to say grace I usually take the opportunity to politely excuse myself and go wash my hands or something while they get grace out of the way. I just don't do it, but that's me. When dinner is at my house, I prefer that grace not be said and some people respect that. They can always pause for the thought for themselves without making a big deal about it.

However, there is always someone who insists of doing a formal grace, even if it's not their home and they are offended when I object to it in my home. My attitude is that if they must pray, they should take it outside... all the way home if they want.

I was wondering how others in my situation handle this. I expect to be dealing with it Thursday. Oh, and I'm not the kind of guy to keep my mouth shut when something bothers me.

For those of you who know I play in a church band and are confused, that's strictly business for me. They accept that I don't join hands and pray with them, as they do every time we rehearse or play.

It seemed to me he was making a point about wondering how he might deal with it this Thursday and wanted opinions on how others handle the situation. The rest of his post seemed like background about he has dealt with other situations in the past.

 

[Fitswimmer]

For christenings, I absolutely do not believe in the practice and do not attend, ever, even for my own children and grandchildren

I respect that you hold to your convictions although I'm sure you've taken a lot because of it. I hope you didn't skip the party afterwards though-good food to be had a those!

 

[auntpolly]

How interesting. I didn't have that impression at all.
.

How interesting.... (we need a "snort" smiley!)

Oh, man! This is fun!

George, can we have your sworn statement concerning the exact details of this issue?

You thought you were asking a simple question didn't you? Another fun thing to do is to go over to the planning boards and ask if you can use the pool at the Polynesian if you aren't staying there!

Happy Thanksgiving George! Thanks for bringing up something we all needed to think about!

 

[GeorgeG]

How interesting. I didn't have that impression at all. My impression was that he was mostly concerned about guests in HIS home who insist on saying formal grace despite the host's known wishes. He said he has no problem with guests saying grace silently him/herself, just when they insist on it being said aloud and everyone must participate.

Polite guests, whether they are friends, acquaintances or relatives, take the cue from the host family. My guess is that some of George's DW's family are impolite guests, and take several opportunities to let him know their disapproval of him.

George, I wish you patience and grace at Thanksgiving. Don't let 'em get to you, just love them (or tolerate them) in spite of themselves. These people obviously mean something to your DW, and you are a richer man for having her in your life.

That's about it. Thank you for understanding. I realize this is a rather petty issue for many, but sometimes it's the little things that add up.

I really don't ask for much in life. I guess it's difficult for so many to understand that not everyone believes in what they do. It's just that I'm as firmly planted in my beliefs as others are in theirs'. Unfortunatly, what I believe usually doesn't matter to others. I will say that I'm fortunate to be working in a contemporary Christian church band, or Praise Band, as they refer to us, where I'm accepted and treated well by everyone for who and what I am (and I did make my heathen status known way up front). I see these good people as real Christians. I work hard to give them the most inspiring music I can... they take care of the words. It should be clear that I'm not bashing Christians. I'm just asking for a few minutes of respect in my own home.

 

[Fitswimmer]

That's about it. Thank you for understanding. I realize this is a rather petty issue for many, but sometimes it's the little things that add up.

I really don't ask for much in life. I guess it's difficult for so many to understand that not everyone believes in what they do. It's just that I'm as firmly planted in my beliefs as others are in theirs'. Unfortunatly, what I believe usually doesn't matter to others. I will say that I'm fortunate to be working in a contemporary Christian church band, or Praise Band, as they refer to us, where I'm accepted and treated well by everyone for who and what I am (and I did make my heathen status known way up front). I see these good people as real Christians. I work hard to give them the most inspiring music I can... they take care of the words. It should be clear that I'm not bashing Christians. I'm just asking for a few minutes of respect in my own home.

Ok, I respected you before, but finding out that you play Christian music really impresses me! I'm glad that your fellow musicians are respectful of you and your feelings. You deserve it. I can't think of too many Christians that would take a job playing music that was contrary to their faith-even if they were just playing and not singing the words.

 

[Alex2kMommy]

It seemed to me he was making a point about wondering how he might deal with it this Thursday and wanted opinions on how others handle the situation. The rest of his post seemed like background about he has dealt with other situations in the past.

The interesting part (no snort intended, I promise!) is that we read the same posts, but you understood him to mean that he would be a guest for Thanksgiving. I read it as he and his DW were hosting Thanksgiving, he knows these people well, and expects that they are going to make a big deal of saying grace out loud with everyone required to participate, despite knowing their hosts' wishes and customs.

 

[Deb in IA]

I think that as for your house, if one of your guests wants to have a formal grace, I would let them. If you don't want to join them, just stand off to the side. To forbid them from saying grace would be rude, and if you really don't want any grace said in your home, you should not invite guests who do that.

If you are at a house where the host says grace, you should just stand off to the side. If people are holding hands, just say "No, thanks." To get up and pretend to do something during grace seems rude to me, and like you are calling attention to yourself and your "point".

 

[caitycaity]

Wow. I never thought about it. So, there are people out there having Thanksgiving and they are giving thanks to themselves for what they have acheived and collected while they have been on Earth? Wow.......I was just truly SHOCKED to come to the realization, that people would self-worship like that. I'm sure it happens.

holy cannoli. please tell me how you came to the conclusion that thanksgiving is about self-worship for atheists from what was posted here?!?

this is exactly the kind of christian attitude that cheeses me off. we aren't thanking god, so our thanksfulness must be totally worthless. totally selfish. totally greedy. yeah you know us evil atheists. it's all about self-worship and back patting for us.

i do not know a single person who believes that they are able to control every single thing in their life. fate, luck, circumstance.... most people realize that there are intervening forces in their life besides their own actions and intentions. i know i do. i don't see how anyone could believe otherwise.

so just because i don't believe in god, i cannot be thankful for anything i have in my life? being thankful that i have the opportunity to be with family who loves me, being thankful that i am able to afford a lot of things that others are not so fortunate to have, being thankful that i am married to a guy who loves me and treats me right. i cannot be thankful for these things unless i believe in god? frankly, that is ridiculous! thanksgiving for me is the exact opposite of self-worship! it is the time of year when i reflect on how LUCKY i am to have a lot of the things i do. it's not that i sit around and think "you go girl. you did all this yourself. job well done." nope. i am thinking how lucky i am to have been born into a family like mine, have the opportunities i have been given, and to have met the people i have become friends with so far in my life.

sorry to be so vehement, but your post REALLY struck a nerve with me. i have heard a lot of things over the years, but i am sort of shocked that someone seriously believes that atheists sit around and think how great they are on thanksgiving! and no, it is not all about the turkey for me either!!!

 

[goofygirl]

Wow. I never thought about it. So, there are people out there having Thanksgiving and they are giving thanks to themselves for what they have acheived and collected while they have been on Earth?

What's wrong with that? You mean you never felt grateful and thankful that you had a secure job, a nice home, an education and so on?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

holy cannoli. please tell me how you came to the conclusion that thanksgiving is about self-worship for atheists from what was posted here?!?

this is exactly the kind of christian attitude that cheeses me off. we aren't thanking god, so our thanksfulness must be totally worthless. totally selfish. totally greedy. yeah you know us evil atheists. it's all about self-worship and back patting for us.
!

They are wrong!

Being thankful for what you have..is important regardless of your religious affiliation (or lack thereof).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As for weddings and funerals (and I'll add christenings), I do not, as a rule, attend church service weddings, funerals, or christenings and while my friends my not like that, they understand. On the rare occasion I must attend a wedding (daughter or son, someday grandchildren) I keep a low profile and do not pretend to be a Christian for the moment. For funerals, I do not attend the church portion and quietly refrain from prayer at graveside. For christenings, I absolutely do not believe in the practice and do not attend, ever, even for my own children and grandchildren. That used to shock a lot of people, but they have come to deal with it.

Regarding the friends who asked me to be godfather to their son, I was, indeed, flattered and did politely decline. I just found it totally out of character for devout Christians to make such a request to someone they knew to be a devout heathen. I guess I tend to look for logic in too many things. By the way, that friendship dwindled because they could not carry on a simple conversation without reference to "the lord." Believe what you want, but please, stay out of my face with it.

With all due respect--this seems incredibly self-centered. Placing your lack of beliefs above and beyond other people and their feelings. And I'm not talking about when people "shove it in your face". Though I am beginning to doubt the extent to which they do that.

You are aware that you won't catch cooties or anything.

i've heard of atheists and agnosists--I've known some and some of what you say is understandable..however it does seem like you treat others as second class citizens that are not worthy of your time b/c they do something that pretty much disgusts you to the extent that you will not associate them in any occasion that may mention it.

It seems quite the extreme. About as extreme as the very very extreme Christians or any other faith who only associate with "their kind".

It seems very sad to me and honestly quite selfish that it has gotten to the point in your life.

 

[goofygirl]

George refuses to say grace or have grace said in his home, he refuses to attend anything in a church (baptisms, weddings, funerals, etc) yet he plays in a Christian band.

I think we have a case of " me thinks he does protest too much" here.

 

[VickiVM]

19 PAGES OVER GRATITUDE??? Give me a break. That's what we're all reduced to, whether it's offensive to others to express gratitude???

Surely we can all tolerate one another's differences one day out of the year. Are we 4 years old???

 

[GeorgeG]

George refuses to say grace or have grace said in his home, he refuses to attend anything in a church (baptisms, weddings, funerals, etc) yet he plays in a Christian band.

I think we have a case of " me thinks he does protest too much" here.

My job with the band is strictly business, as it would be if I were doing any job. I did not seek them out, they called me and I was very, very up front with them (heathens are usually quite honest people). I was originally hired as a summer replacement for their bass player. They asked me to stay on lead guitar when he got back. Most of the band are church members and do it on a volunteer basis. I'm the hired help. I'm not into the music we play, but as a professional I give them what they hired me for. I do not participate in the service or worship in any way other than my playing. Should anyone there ever express discomfort with me being there and not participating I would leave. In five months that has not happened.

As for all the other things, I keep it as low profile as I can. The wedge between me and churches in general was driven deep over a period of more than four decades of bad experiences. It's not something I expect anyone to understand, but I do hope they can come to grips with the fact that I am very uncomfortable in certain settings. I've come across too many "Christians" who would rather I lie and pretend than accept me as I am. It's a long story and not what I originally intended to get into with this post.

Like I said earlier, read the book when it comes out. For now, I'm just not comfortable with grace being said at my table in my home. Period!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So you will expose yourself to Jesus cooties for cash?

Strictly business my foot.

You are living a lie by doing what you do for money.