UAW Concessions?

[#1hockeymom]

Come on, Nisson, Hyundai and Kia all build crap but Americans love them. I'll give you Honda on quality but Toyota has been slipping more and more.

As far as initial quality, foreign car owners typically trade in their cars at a higher rate than the domestics. Long term, my Chevy will be on the road a lot longer than any Kia or Nisson or Hyundai or Honda and will last as long as any Toyota.

Even in Detroit there is a bias against US car companies in the media. If there is a BIG 3 recall, it is at the top of the business section, if any foreign company has a recall, it's on page 3.

blanq, exactly the problem currently is the lack of credit. The BIG 3 cannot hold themselves over till the new contracts kick in, money is not being lended.

I will concede unions have enjoyed outstanding benefits but Chap 11 is far more complicated than just going in and fixing it. You need a bank or government to provide financing while in Chap 11. Because of State & Federal laws they can't reorganize dealership or contracts without bankruptcy.

Also our southern country men have not been paid a fair enough wage and benefit for what they do within the foreign plants.

What has always baffled me is the fact that a car with a foreign company nameplate will get a better quality report than the SAME car, built on the SAME line, as the big three counterpart. Yep, slap a different logo on it and it changes the quality? I think not.

 

[Galahad]

Come on, Nisson, Hyundai and Kia all build crap but Americans love them. I'll give you Honda on quality but Toyota has been slipping more and more.

As far as initial quality, foreign car owners typically trade in their cars at a higher rate than the domestics. Long term, my Chevy will be on the road a lot longer than any Kia or Nisson or Hyundai or Honda and will last as long as any Toyota.

On the first - can't argue - I drive Hondas. On the second, I'd take that bet. We never put less that 200,000 miles on our Honda's before trading them. Didn't realize that Japanese cars were traded more. For us, the whole argument in favor of them is their reliability and longevity. Why trade them if they last longer.

Why are resale values so low for Big 3 cars? Are you saying it's entirely perception?

 

[daughtersrus]

. What sorts of similar contracts do the other companies have?

Most exec not only have a contract, but they also get bonuses. It appears that they are not being cut in some instances.
Here are some examples.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/13/AR2008111304446.html?hpid=topnews

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/17/eveningnews/main4612647.shtml

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081117/FREE/811179934/1123

 

[fkj2]

Then there is me... Conservative Republican that refuses to see the auto industry that she grew up with whither away, die, and take what is left of this state with it.

I'm fourth generation Ford... I'd like my kids to be able to be the fifth.

Just like steel workers wanted to see their children and grandchildren follow them into the mills for "financial security."

Just like farming families want to hold onto the family farm, but often lose it to pay death taxes. And developers used to be right there when homesteads were auctioned to snap up prime property to develop it. But hey, there's another industry where many children won't be following a parent or grandparent into it because of this economic downturn--construction.

There are few industries or vocations that haven't had to make adjustments--significant ones--and there are a few for which those adjustments are now coming their way. No one is immune.

 

[S. C.]

Except that the auto industry, is claiming that their problem is the same as the financial industries...access to credit, or lack thereof. If you believe the union could be the downfall of the Big 3, then what is the explanation for the non-unionized auto companies that are asking for bridge loans from their governments?

Good point!

 

[Galahad]

Except that the auto industry, is claiming that their problem is the same as the financial industries...access to credit, or lack thereof. If you believe the union could be the downfall of the Big 3, then what is the explanation for the non-unionized auto companies that are asking for bridge loans from their governments?

They are not asking for bridge loans to continue a failed business model. They are asking for bridge loans to save an otherwise successful business model.

It's not just the unions, IMO. But to deny they enormous extent to which they are contributing will not hasten the healing of the Big 3.

 

[c4a]

First of all, this is a LOAN unlike the bank bailout.

We the people have given the bank hundreds of BILLIONS. AIG has received over $170 billion. So, the country is willing to bailout people making several times what auto-workers make but not save millions of jobs and hundreds of communities and several States with only a $25 billion LOAN.

So, save the rich and damn the unions?

I doubt if anyone has any idea of the the bailout that will be needed if any of the BIG 3 fail or if all fail. It will be the Government who provides the welfare, job programs, food program, housing programs needed to save people. 1 in 10 jobs in the US is directly tied to the US auto industry.

There is no other industry in the US as large. There may be other that make more money or are more profitable but none have more employed at fair to good wages.

Let's see, 3 million jobs lost in the first year & an additional 2 million in the second year. It would cut $500 billion per year in tax revenue to the US government. US auto industry would halt due to supplier defaults. The car you buy will be made in Japan, Germany, Korea, China, India or Russia. Our national defense will be severely compromised due to the loss of the Big 3. The Arsenal of Democracy will be gone.

I believe the Unions have been greedy, Auto Execs made bad decisions in the past and our Government has messed up worse than either.

Also, the Big 3 have faced an unfair US perception against it. Sure, Toyota has the Yaris and the Prius but they sell many times more SUVS and trucks and you know what the Big 3 lead in MPG in those categories.

I had a problem with the very first paragraph.

The Big 3 were included in the last bail out in Sept. They are to recieve $25 Billion from that money to intoduce/explore more energy efficiant concepts. They, like the banking industry, just do not have the money in hand, yet. The $25 Billion that the companies are asking for now is in addition to the other $25 Billion. $50 Billion total. And the auto industry never should have been included in the Sept. bail out since that bail out was supposed to be for the banking/insurance/Wall Street. The fact that not even 3 months, later...the Big 3 have their hand out, again...is why the 3 head honchos were repeatedly asked "If given the money, how do we know you won't be back in another couple of months?"

We are, also, not talking about "fair or good wages". We are talking about (across the board, exec. included) excellent wages with excellent benefits...that not only include workers...but include monthly allowances (pensions/benefits) for retired workers.

No, the car I bought would not be made overseas. The company that manufactured it may have foreign owners; however, the car itself would be built here in the states...with parts/suppliers here in the states. That is U.S. job security. Granted, it is not U.S. Union job security. And even if the Big 3 managed to pull themselves out of the hole (with or without tax payer help)...because of the situation that they (and their union) has put me, as a tax payer in...I will never buy one of their cars, again.

"national defense" & "Arsenal of Democracy"... first of all, our country's democracy is not built upon cars. Our economy is. Yes, Democracy is not free. However, it is bought with blood and bullets...not Explorers, Caravans, or Malibu's.

And yes, the lay-off's have been going on for a little over 3 years, now. Agree one hundred percent with that. However, GM union members staged a 2 day strike to insure that the company buckled under to union demands.

What "unfair perception" has the Big 3 faced with the American consumer, exactly? I have been a loyal Ford buyer for over 25 years...so what misperception do I have? I have 2 brother's who are members of the UAW-both Ford employees-I know full well what the Bail out means. That doesn't mean I have to like it & it doesn't mean that I don't deserve answers on how the Big 3 are planning to use my hard earned money.

I am for the bail out only because of the downward spiral. All of the truly innocent people who did not vote for the union leaders & stand to lose everything. And no the union leaders did not take many concessions. Perhaps instead of googling an article about the UAW concessions; you should just go straight to their site & read how they "stood strong" & "despite the company's attempts..."

Hopping down off the soap box, now.

 

[Galahad]

"national defense" & "Arsenal of Democracy"... first of all, our country's democracy is not built upon cars. Our economy is. Yes, Democracy is not free. However, it is bought with blood and bullets...not Explorers, Caravans, or Malibu's.

The big three make more than just domestic autos. They make things for the military. I don't know to what extent any more but in the past it has been jeeps and hummers and tanks and on and on.

 

[c4a]

The big three make more than just domestic autos. They make things for the military. I don't know to what extent any more but in the past it has been jeeps and hummers and tanks and on and on.

Thank you for the clarification. There are so many different plants all over the U.S. it is hard to keep track of them. Although from what I have been hearing & reading...Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Missouri, and Indiana will probably be the hardest hit. Simply because not only do we have the majority of the assembly plants...we have the majority of the supplier plants, too.

 

[Colleen27]

A new Chevy Colalt will be worth a buck and a half the minute I drive it off the lot. It will rattle like a tin can before I turn the first corner. Yes, I'm serious. I don't care what kind of cars they sell. If they can get SUV's to sell, more power to them. But trying to make a case for real lasting quality of cars made by the Detroit Three over Japanese and German makers is absurd.

You're so biased against the Big 3 that there's no point in having this conversation. Objective rating groups rate many American cars well above their foreign counterparts (and for the sake of logic, I'm limiting "foreign cars" mainly to the best - Toyota and Honda - because there's no point in even getting into a quality discussion about a Kia or a Daewoo or a Nissan, etc.).

Personally, I drive an 11 year old American built minivan with over 200K miles on it. It still runs well and gets decent mileage, and while I'd like to have a newer one for some of the features, there's no mechanical reason to be thinking about a replacement yet.

 

[Colleen27]

The Big 3 were included in the last bail out in Sept. They are to recieve $25 Billion from that money to intoduce/explore more energy efficiant concepts. They, like the banking industry, just do not have the money in hand, yet. The $25 Billion that the companies are asking for now is in addition to the other $25 Billion. $50 Billion total. And the auto industry never should have been included in the Sept. bail out since that bail out was supposed to be for the banking/insurance/Wall Street. The fact that not even 3 months, later...the Big 3 have their hand out, again...is why the 3 head honchos were repeatedly asked "If given the money, how do we know you won't be back in another couple of months?"

They're actually not asking for more right now. They're asking for the rules governing the use of that 25B to be changed, so that they can use it to ride out the current credit crunch and invest in retooling at a more stable time, and to get the money sooner than planned. We're still "only" looking at 25B for the auto industry at this point.

 

[Colleen27]

If AIG employees have wages that are inflated by a collective bargaining agreement then we should cry foul and take a good look at those agreements. If their wages are individually awarded - which most would be -then they can be changed at will be AIG. Thus AIG has mechanisms to control their costs in ways that GM cannot.

Yeah, and they're doing such a great job of it, with the lush retreats and golden parachutes for the very people who drove the company into the ground. I'm with the previous poster - there is a disturbing double standard being applied here. MBAs making millions can do no wrong, and need no oversight when handed hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, but let's stick it to blue collar workers who are doing more than scraping by and refuse to bail out the companies that employ them unless they destroy the union and cut all those people back to subsistence wages.

 

[minnie61650]

Yeah, and they're doing such a great job of it, with the lush retreats and golden parachutes for the very people who drove the company into the ground. I'm with the previous poster - there is a disturbing double standard being applied here. MBAs making millions can do no wrong, and need no oversight when handed hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, but let's stick it to blue collar workers who are doing more than scraping by and refuse to bail out the companies that employ them unless they destroy the union and cut all those people back to subsistence wages.

I agree. I blame the mismanagement of the banking indusrty for our credit crunch and the credit crush seems to be directly related to the Deroit 3 auto crisis.

JMHO

 

[jodifla]

You're so biased against the Big 3 that there's no point in having this conversation. Objective rating groups rate many American cars well above their foreign counterparts (and for the sake of logic, I'm limiting "foreign cars" mainly to the best - Toyota and Honda - because there's no point in even getting into a quality discussion about a Kia or a Daewoo or a Nissan, etc.).

Personally, I drive an 11 year old American built minivan with over 200K miles on it. It still runs well and gets decent mileage, and while I'd like to have a newer one for some of the features, there's no mechanical reason to be thinking about a replacement yet.

Holy smokes! Really. We've always had a mixture of American cars and then first a Mazda, then a Honda.

The Mazda surely didn't last longer than the GM cars. It didn't have many mechanical problems, but it was a total rattle trap when I got rid of it 9 years later.

My Honda Accord is now 11 years old and starting the show real signs of wear. Coicidentally, our Buick Roadmaster is showing wear now kinda of rapidly as well...but it 13 years old.

I rented a Chevy Cobalt earlier this year while traveling...a stripped down rental type version. It was WAY nicer than my '97 Accord (except for my Accord's leather interior.)

A have a lot of friends with Ford Explorerers, too. They've been very happy with them (well, up until the gas issue). Most of them use them as major haulers.

And I have a friend with Toyota Camry who's had NOTHING but TROUBLE since the day she bought it new. She hates that thing.

Another place where American cars really shine are TRUCKS. NO ONE beats American trucks. The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country.

And the Joe the Plumbers of the world need their trucks, not their Toyota Prius....oh, that reminds me. A friend traded in their Prius because he said if felt like he was riding in a tin can.

 

[blanq]

Yeah, and they're doing such a great job of it, with the lush retreats and golden parachutes for the very people who drove the company into the ground. I'm with the previous poster - there is a disturbing double standard being applied here. MBAs making millions can do no wrong, and need no oversight when handed hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, but let's stick it to blue collar workers who are doing more than scraping by and refuse to bail out the companies that employ them unless they destroy the union and cut all those people back to subsistence wages.

ITA!!

 

[daughtersrus]

Self inflicted wounds should be allowed to run their course.

If that's the case, why aren't the wounds at AIG being allowed to run their course?

 

[lindalinda]

I admit to being a honda owner. I used to have a ford escort and kept it until it died. Well worth the money. Then I bought a honda crv. I swore to never buy another honda after that one, it was trouble. But this time I wanted a hybrid. I did not want a huge hybrid tahoe suv that gets 21 mpg. I wanted a high gas mileage car. I looked into the Ford escape. But the milegae difference was 5 mpg. I still probably would have bought one, but they couldn't be found. Waiting list, and price premium.

So I got the honda civic hybrid. I love it. Its a great car. I want the US auto makers to make a high gas mileage (I mean 45-50mpg) small car that the environmentally conscious can feel good about buying. And make it a reasonable price.

I think it can be done. I absolutely will buy american if I can find what I want or need.

 

[daughtersrus]

If AIG employees have wages that are inflated by a collective bargaining agreement then we should cry foul and take a good look at those agreements. If their wages are individually awarded - which most would be -then they can be changed at will be AIG. Thus AIG has mechanisms to control their costs in ways that GM cannot.

AIG may be able to change the salaries but it appears that they are not.
How many people at AIG, Citigroup and the others that are being bailed out have not only given up raises and/or bonuses but have taken a pay cut?

 

[ScottJ]

We are, also, not talking about "fair or good wages". We are talking about (across the board, exec. included) excellent wages with excellent benefits...that not only include workers...but include monthly allowances (pensions/benefits) for retired workers.

No, the car I bought would not be made overseas. The company that manufactured it may have foreign owners; however, the car itself would be built here in the states...with parts/suppliers here in the states. That is U.S. job security. Granted, it is not U.S. Union job security. And even if the Big 3 managed to pull themselves out of the hole (with or without tax payer help)...because of the situation that they (and their union) has put me, as a tax payer in...I will never buy one of their cars, again.

"national defense" & "Arsenal of Democracy"... first of all, our country's democracy is not built upon cars. Our economy is. Yes, Democracy is not free. However, it is bought with blood and bullets...not Explorers, Caravans, or Malibu's.

I said good to fair wages as I am including suppliers. Also, depending on where you live, $28 dollars is not the same in every state. Cost of living vary from state to state and from city to city within each state. Yes, most auto workers have excellent benefits however most suppliers do not.

Yes, the car you bought which is currently made in the US would become an important for a short amount of time 2 to 5 years. Suppliers are integrated and couldn't withstand any of the BIG 3 to fail. All foreign car makers would have to rely on importing the vast amount to not only deal with supplier issues but also to deal with the 8.5 million cars the BIG 3 currently sell in the US. None of the current foreign companies have the production capabilities to supply demand. Not only that, if the foreign companies were to buy existing plants they would have to come up with BILLIONS to retrofit those plants in our current economic conditions. So that's not an option to meet demand.

So, yes, your car would become an import.

""The Arsenal of Democracy" is one of the 30 fireside chats broadcast on the radio by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt. It was read on December 29, 1940, during World War II, at a time when Nazi Germany had occupied much of Europe and threatened Britain.

Nazi Germany was allied with Italy and Japan (the Axis powers). At the time Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union remained allied under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and had jointly invaded Poland in 1939, an alliance that remained until the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

Roosevelt had called Detroit, Michigan as the "great arsenal of democracy" in reference to the rapid transition of much of the Detroit-area automotive industry's conversion to produce weapons during World War II. The speech was "a call to arm and support" the Allies in Europe and to a lesser extent in Asia, in their struggles against totalitarian regimes."

So, Detroit auto companies save our Country in a time of great need but what about the auto companies needs now.

National Defense, the Marine Corp head general (I'm sorry I don't know his title) has come out to say if we lose the BIG 3, national defense would be severely compromise.

Does America really know how much the BIG 3 has done and currently do for our Country?

 

[Colleen27]

Another place where American cars really shine are TRUCKS. NO ONE beats American trucks. The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country.

And the Joe the Plumbers of the world need their trucks, not their Toyota Prius....oh, that reminds me. A friend traded in their Prius because he said if felt like he was riding in a tin can.

DH is a home improvement contractor, and he's a BIG TIME Ford guy. Right now, he's driving a 14 year old F250 Superduty that I'm starting to think he'll never part with. Because it cannot fit our whole family, he only drives it for work so it only has 130K miles and we haven't had any non-routine repairs pop up other than replacing a brake line that was damaged when we had the truck off-road on a job site. Yeah, the gas mileage sucks, but the brand new trucks with comparable equipment (high towing/hauling capacity and heavy duty suspension) only get 1-2MPG better, so there's no pressing need to trade up.

And ITA about the Prius. I've driven a friend's on a few occasions, and while it is fine for her as a single, childless woman, it is a sardine can of a car. There's no way I'd try to cram my three into the back seat. Poor DS would be so squished between the girls' car seats!

I would love to see a hybrid minivan come to the US market (Toyota sells one overseas but not here). Right now, Chevy and Toyota both make 7 passenger hybrid SUVs, but they don't get any better gas mileage than a standard minivan and cost twice as much. And since I'm not willing to scale back to a 5 seater, my hybrid options are pretty pathetic.