Too many rooms -too few attractions???

[xie]

I have to agree. I have been going to Disney since 1984, and after a trip, I usually am already planning the next one. However my last three visits (early Sept 2011, late Aug 2012 and late April 2013) were not the magic that I had hoped for. I found the areas not as clean as they used to be, especially the restrooms. We also waited a long time with ADRs. The crowds (IMO) were heavier than I expected, and none of these visits were in top peak times. There were a lot of maintenance issues, including rides.

That is not to say that the trips were totally a bust (we did do the behind the scenes tour in Epcot; that was the best part of the last trip; the CM leading the tour was awesome!).

However, for the first time, I am not planning a trip back anytime soon. I don't feel the excitement that I used to. I am not angry or complaining. I am sad that my last few experiences were not as fun because I do love Disney!

Yep, us too. A week at WDW simply costs too much right now for the experience we get in exchange for all that money. If our last trip had cost even half of what it did, I would still think it wasn't worth it. We don't get much vacation per year and we don't want to spend it at a place where we're frustrated and poorly treated. I can't tell you how disappointed we all were.

If they ever fix it, we'll certainly give them another chance, because we have loved Disney in years past. But having been burned for several trips in a row, in an escalating way (each one is worse than the last), I'm going to have to hear a LOT of GREAT things before I try it again.

 

[Eoghann]

It's fascinating to me how radically different people's experiences can be.

Now I only go every 2-3 years (which makes everything feel much fresher than it would to someone who goes 1-2 times a year I'm sure) and I generally go at low crowd times.

But I can honestly say that I've never experienced anything looking dirty or uncleaned tables and I've had nothing but good experiences with the staff.

Food is another story, it's certainly nothing special. Although at the prices they charge it would pretty much have to sparkle in my mouth to be impressive.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

It's fascinating to me how radically different people's experiences can be.

Now I only go every 2-3 years (which makes everything feel much fresher than it would to someone who goes 1-2 times a year I'm sure) and I generally go at low crowd times.

But I can honestly say that I've never experienced anything looking dirty or uncleaned tables and I've had nothing but good experiences with the staff.

Food is another story, it's certainly nothing special. Although at the prices they charge it would pretty much have to sparkle in my mouth to be impressive.

This is absolutely my experience, except for food. It was 12 years between visits Jan 2000 to Jan 2012, and then 1.5 years to Sept 2013. While the last two were closer, I still thought things were clean, well maintained, and CM's were great.

I am not doubting at all the experiences of others, but I am wondering why the difference? Is it how often you visit. Those of us that visit less often notice less problems? Perception? Bad circumstance? (You just happen to be there for the one bad CM or right before they clean something)

I do not know, but it does seem that a number of regular visitors have had repeated bad experiences whereas I have had nothing but great experiences.

Regarding food: I am a simple food person. But we got free dining for September so we ate at a number of nice restaurants with my adult children who are "foodies." I thought the food and restaurants were fantastic, but I did not eat at these places in the past.

 

[jtwibih]

We go every year and while the magic isn't quite what it used to be, we still love going. Typically we have great experiences with the service and we even enjoy most of the table service restaurants. We encountered a few grouchy CMs this time around but it wasn't enough to ruin a good time. I notice a significant difference in WDW and US in terms of quality. While US is getting a lot better, it does not warrant a return trip every year for us. The rides are better but that's not why we go to Disney.
The complacency that many on this board refer to seems to be real though. The entire company seems to be going down that path too. ESPN has become almost unwatchable at this point. They have zero real competition so they don't have to do anything to make their programming better. Half of their analysts don't have a clue what they are talking about and SportsCenter has become TMZ with a sports twist. I was hoping for Fox Sports 1 to give them some heat but it hasn't really materialized up to now.
As for the Fantasyland expansion, it's nice but doesn't really draw me at all (at least until we see the Mine Train). I'm sure Avatar will be nice too but I don't care one bit about the movie. I guess I just hope to see a stronger effort down the road, especially with Epcot's Future World. That place is becoming a ghost town.

 

[FigmentFans]

This is absolutely my experience, except for food. It was 12 years between visits Jan 2000 to Jan 2012, and then 1.5 years to Sept 2013. While the last two were closer, I still thought things were clean, well maintained, and CM's were great.

I am not doubting at all the experiences of others, but I am wondering why the difference? Is it how often you visit. Those of us that visit less often notice less problems? Perception? Bad circumstance? (You just happen to be there for the one bad CM or right before they clean something)

I do not know, but it does seem that a number of regular visitors have had repeated bad experiences whereas I have had nothing but great experiences.

Regarding food: I am a simple food person. But we got free dining for September so we ate at a number of nice restaurants with my adult children who are "foodies." I thought the food and restaurants were fantastic, but I did not eat at these places in the past.

I think as OP said, it is more the feeling that they are complacent and trying to cut corners to save some money. I probably do have a high level of expectation that Disney has met in the past.

BTW, I have absolutely no issue with the CMs; 99.9% are fantastic. I also expect the food to be OK unless I go to one of the better restaurants, some that I enjoyed immensely (Flying Fish, Calif. Grill).

I am actually thinking the next time I do go to Disney, I might try Disneyland. It appears that Disney has made more innovative changes there, or maybe I just need a change!

 

[Bob Roberts]

This is absolutely my experience, except for food. It was 12 years between visits Jan 2000 to Jan 2012, and then 1.5 years to Sept 2013. While the last two were closer, I still thought things were clean, well maintained, and CM's were great.

I am not doubting at all the experiences of others, but I am wondering why the difference? Is it how often you visit. Those of us that visit less often notice less problems? Perception? Bad circumstance? (You just happen to be there for the one bad CM or right before they clean something)

I do not know, but it does seem that a number of regular visitors have had repeated bad experiences whereas I have had nothing but great experiences.

Regarding food: I am a simple food person. But we got free dining for September so we ate at a number of nice restaurants with my adult children who are "foodies." I thought the food and restaurants were fantastic, but I did not eat at these places in the past.

You are in the minority my friend. As you can tell on this thread, the masses are not pleased. The thing is the Dis is made up of hardcore Disney fans and if you can't please them just imagine what others think?

Picture that poor family who saved up for their once in a lifetime trip who get nickel and dimed for everything on their one day admission to Magic Kingdom. They walk into the park (after blowing over $400 bucks) and see the park loaded with people shoulder to shoulder nose to nose. Every attraction has a 1 hours plus wait time and the kids are getting crazy restless waiting in line for so long. Then its lunch time and the sub par food is grossly over priced, the worst part about it is that they can't even find a spot to eat it because there is garbage and left overs all over the tables. Then they take on the rest of the afternoon trying to see as much as they can while getting trampled on by throngs of other people trying to get the most bang of their hard to earn overly inflated Dollar. What do you think they will say about going to Disney for that one day? I will tell you one thing, it will not be good. This is not what the Disney experience is suppose to be in my book, but its a sign of the times. Greedy people on the top taking advantage of others, the saddest thing is that the others fully comply with what the top want.

 

[Eoghann]

You are in the minority my friend. As you can tell on this thread, the masses are not pleased. The thing is the Dis is made up of hardcore Disney fans and if you can't please them just imagine what others think?

This thread tells us nothing about the masses what so ever.

It tells us that a self selected group it of a self selected group of hardcore WDW fans are displeased. Statistically that is meaningless.

It could be a symptom of a wider problem or it could just be that unhappy hardcore fans tend to complain vocally. There's no way to know.

And I hate it when people try to make anecdotal evidence into empirical.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

This thread tells us nothing about the masses what so ever.

It tells us that a self selected group it of a self selected group of hardcore WDW fans are displeased. Statistically that is meaningless.

It could be a symptom of a wider problem or it could just be that unhappy hardcore fans tend to complain vocally. There's no way to know.

And I hate it when people try to make anecdotal evidence into empirical.

I have to agree...

And that is why there will be nothing resembling a change toward quality at WDW.
Because it is a select, privileged few who have been tracking and raise the complaints...but that doesn't penetrate the shield that protects them...and that is a volume of people who simply don't know better.

Lots of reasons why it isn't more of an issue... But a big culprit in my book is credit. As in it isn't hard earned, time saved money being spent...it's easy money that was never in hand. That creates a consumer of "whatever"... And you know what's good enough for that?

Whatever

 

[Eoghann]

I have to agree...

And that is why there will be nothing resembling a change toward quality at WDW.
Because it is a select, privileged few who have been tracking and raise the complaints...but that doesn't penetrate the shield that protects them...and that is a volume of people who simply don't know better.

Lots of reasons why it isn't more of an issue... But a big culprit in my book is credit. As in it isn't hard earned, time saved money being spent...it's easy money that was never in hand. That creates a consumer of "whatever"... And you know what's good enough for that?

Whatever

You sing this refrain a lot. And it's largely correct in my estimation.

Yet are you not one of the most guilty? It seems you go quite frequently.

Although for a different perspective I'll point out that I am still having a great time on my trips. And that when that stops, so will my trips.

One of my frustrations with the tone on these boards lately is that it's lots of negative noise but nothing constructive. I tend to think that if you've identified a problem either fix it or stop wasting the money.

So basically find a way to enjoy Disney as it is... or do something else.

The rest will take care of itself. If you're right eventually the attendance will suffer and steps will be taken. There's no need to be a martyr in the mean time.

 

[RicJ]

You are in the minority my friend. As you can tell on this thread, the masses are not pleased. The thing is the Dis is made up of hardcore Disney fans and if you can't please them just imagine what others think?

I'm sorry but you got this completely backwards. Hardcore fandom is always harder to please. They are always more demanding and more aware of circumstances and history.

You can easily please the masses and displease the hardcore fandom. A common mistake in corporate view actually.

The secret is in pleasing the Harccore fans while sustaining what the average park goer wants (and is still getting, because they keep going). The sheer divide we see in this forum over some issues is by itself proof enough that you can't please the full hardcore fan base regardless of what you implement.

Unless 1% of the fans make up for more than 50% of Disney's revenue, it's not going to change. Simple as that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You sing this refrain a lot. And it's largely correct in my estimation.

Yet are you not one of the most guilty? It seems you go quite frequently.

Although for a different perspective I'll point out that I am still having a great time on my trips. And that when that stops, so will my trips.

One of my frustrations with the tone on these boards lately is that it's lots of negative noise but nothing constructive. I tend to think that if you've identified a problem either fix it or stop wasting the money.

So basically find a way to enjoy Disney as it is... or do something else.

The rest will take care of itself. If you're right eventually the attendance will suffer and steps will be taken. There's no need to be a martyr in the mean time.

I never checked into the glass house... And you are correct.

My business probably adds to the problem in some ways. My wife and I met there and it is indeed somewhat of a second home... So trips there are more of a Mindless activity than a true touristy "vacation"

My personal patterns have changed alot
Over the last 5 Years and will continue to do so on the current track. But i do have the timeshare...which reduces what I expect from wdw and lowers the value of the common denominator.

But I just skip things when they go south...which now includes all merchandise, 50% of the quick serves, and probably 30% of the table serves -and rising.

They can charge and slash whatever they want..but I'm not buying.

A new "reduction" may be tickets themselves...as in this cat will not pay $700 for an annual pass. Which means reduction or elimination of what is obscene for no new offerings. That isnt just tickets...that's a significant reduction in food and bev from those sources. Probably $2000-$4000 a year as a safe bet.

I vote with my wallet...DVC was a good deal so I choose that. The other things are not...so I withhold larger portions of the additional revenue that they sold me the DVC for in the first place.

But you're right...I do encourage them.

But I will continue to speak against them. Because maybe somebody else will too... And maybe it will build.

In life...as always...the masses dictate who has the power...but the studiers are those that have the wisdom. Unless anybody can prove to me that they have made a good faith attempt to balance price with value over the last 15 years...I'll still beat the drum.

And no... Soarin or toy story mania isn't exactly a justification for their conduct...particularly during the housing crash.

 

[Eoghann]

In life...as always...the masses dictate who has the power...but the studiers are those that have the wisdom. Unless anybody can prove to me that they have made a good faith attempt to balance price with value over the last 15 years...I'll still beat the drum.

And no... Soarin or toy story mania isn't exactly a justification for their conduct...particularly during the housing crash.

Do I think Disney cares about balancing price with value? Only to the extent it might actually affect attendance. They are a public company so is all about increasing return investment quarter on quarter.

But I will also note that value is the eye of the beholder. I go only every 2 or 3 years and I don't do thrill rides at all. The new Festival of Fantasy Parade (and the opportunity for me to take photos) is a huge draw for me this trip and the new interactive pirate adventure game in Adventureland is going to be a big hit with my boys.

Things that most posters on this site don't talk about at all. But they're why I want to visit again.

 

[manning]

This thread tells us nothing about the masses what so ever.

It tells us that a self selected group it of a self selected group of hardcore WDW fans are displeased. Statistically that is meaningless.

It could be a symptom of a wider problem or it could just be that unhappy hardcore fans tend to complain vocally. There's no way to know.

And I hate it when people try to make anecdotal evidence into empirical.

Well it is empirical to them. After all it is based on observation. Their observation.

 

[Eoghann]

Well it is empirical to them. After all it is based on observation. Their observation.

It's not verifiable observation though. So not empirical.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

I'm sorry but you got this completely backwards. Hardcore fandom is always harder to please. They are always more demanding and more aware of circumstances and history.

You can easily please the masses and displease the hardcore fandom. A common mistake in corporate view actually.

The secret is in pleasing the Harccore fans while sustaining what the average park goer wants (and is still getting, because they keep going). The sheer divide we see in this forum over some issues is by itself proof enough that you can't please the full hardcore fan base regardless of what you implement.

Unless 1% of the fans make up for more than 50% of Disney's revenue, it's not going to change. Simple as that.

The masses are most definitely happy so far. It seems like the average joe loves MM+, bands, and FP+. Much to the disgust and gnashing of teeth of the few enlightened.

Hardcore fans in any arena are notoriously hard to please. The more the love and investment into whatever, the greater the angst and the louder the wailing.

HOWEVER... and this is a very important point... the hardcore fans are most likely to scream and cry and threaten to quit while not going anywhere.

I am convinced Disney hardcore fans are just like Star Wars hardcore fans. They scream and yell and spew hatred at the prequels while continuing to plunk down lots of dollars to see them over an over making them gigantic mega-hits. And Disney hardcore fans scream and yell and spew hatred (this site is proof) and keep going to Disney.

Look. Here we are on a Disney fan site where people are screaming and yelling... but are still here talking about Disney. They haven't left and gone to a Six Flags fan site.

I know this, you know this, and Disney knows this. Until large numbers change their spending habits Disney can ignore the hate just like George Lucas did. And made Billions in the process.

It's not verifiable observation though. So not empirical.

Correct, it is anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately many people confuse anecdotal evidence as scientific. This is what sells a lot of supplements and exercise machines.

Everything I read - including on this board - implies that those that are upset are a vocal minority.

 

[FigmentFans]

The masses are most definitely happy so far. It seems like the average joe loves MM+, bands, and FP+. Much to the disgust and gnashing of teeth of the few enlightened.

Hardcore fans in any arena are notoriously hard to please. The more the love and investment into whatever, the greater the angst and the louder the wailing.

HOWEVER... and this is a very important point... the hardcore fans are most likely to scream and cry and threaten to quit while not going anywhere.

I am convinced Disney hardcore fans are just like Star Wars hardcore fans. They scream and yell and spew hatred at the prequels while continuing to plunk down lots of dollars to see them over an over making them gigantic mega-hits. And Disney hardcore fans scream and yell and spew hatred (this site is proof) and keep going to Disney.

Look. Here we are on a Disney fan site where people are screaming and yelling... but are still here talking about Disney. They haven't left and gone to a Six Flags fan site.

I know this, you know this, and Disney knows this. Until large numbers change their spending habits Disney can ignore the hate just like George Lucas did. And made Billions in the process.



Correct, it is anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately many people confuse anecdotal evidence as scientific. This is what sells a lot of supplements and exercise machines.

Everything I read - including on this board - implies that those that are upset are a vocal minority.

You are correct...I am probably in the minority about my feelings about (what I consider) the lessening of 'magic' at WDW. My perception does not include any of the recent changes (FP+, bands, etc) However, I would not describe my behavior as 'spewing hatred', 'screaming', 'yelling', etc. Mine was a personal observation about my sadness that I don't believe I am going back to WDW anytime soon. I am voting with my wallet; usually at this point I have either visited WDW or have a trip planned; I have not done so.
Will my decision not to go change the model? Of course not, unless a lot more people do what I did.

However, it would be interesting to know what is the ratio of first time guests to repeat guests, and if that ratio is changing.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

You are correct...I am probably in the minority about my feelings about (what I consider) the lessening of 'magic' at WDW. My perception does not include any of the recent changes (FP+, bands, etc) However, I would not describe my behavior as 'spewing hatred', 'screaming', 'yelling', etc. Mine was a personal observation about my sadness that I don't believe I am going back to WDW anytime soon. I am voting with my wallet; usually at this point I have either visited WDW or have a trip planned; I have not done so.
Will my decision not to go change the model? Of course not, unless a lot more people do what I did.

However, it would be interesting to know what is the ratio of first time guests to repeat guests, and if that ratio is changing.

I did not mean you at all, I apologize if that is how it came across. I was talking in generalities about some of the over the top posts and trolls here on the DISboards and some of the Star Wars fans on the internet.

You are right. If enough people change their behaviors that is the one and only thing that will affect Disney.

I would love to know a number of statistics including new visitors, length of stay, how often return visitors return, etc.

I think there are a lot of 1st timers. A certain percentage come back, a fairly large percentage don't, and some turn into regulars while some regulars drop out. But I can only guess.

I will be very curious to see the 2013 attendance figures when they are published. I don't know when that will happen.

 

[FigmentFans]

NP. I would like to see the numbers too. It is interesting to see trends over time, although most statistical calculations leave me cross eyed

 

[beer dave]

I did not mean you at all, I apologize if that is how it came across. I was talking in generalities about some of the over the top posts and trolls here on the DISboards and some of the Star Wars fans on the internet.

You are right. If enough people change their behaviors that is the one and only thing that will affect Disney.

I would love to know a number of statistics including new visitors, length of stay, how often return visitors return, etc.

I think there are a lot of 1st timers. A certain percentage come back, a fairly large percentage don't, and some turn into regulars while some regulars drop out. But I can only guess.

I will be very curious to see the 2013 attendance figures when they are published. I don't know when that will happen.

Right-- this is me also. I can see the reduction in services etc.etc., but the trip is still a great experience for my family and me. I greatly appreciate the details from an artisitc standpoint, and the incredible technology in some of the new attractions. (the mirror in ETWB) (that would make a good entrance to the train platform)and talking mickey is amazing for some examples. We spend no money on trinkets, little to no on counter service, and still visit a few of the nicer table service. DVC and FL resident passes keep my trips reasonable and enjoyable. I have reduced spending, but not as a punishment, but because these things have become undesirable to me. When they are again desirable, I will buy them again.

 

[Eoghann]

The impression I have, and which I cannot back up with solid numbers, but which does fit my understanding of the industry as a whole, is that the single largest grouping of visitors is one time visitors.

There are a significant number of people who do the "once in a life time" trip. They're also extremely valuable visitors because they spend a *lot* because they're just doing it once.

Other significant groupings would include people like me who go every few years and of course the local contingent who go frequently.

It is likely (but again I have no figures to back this up) that the AP holders are not a major profit component for the parks because they are far more likely to go there for a few hours, hit the things they like and move on without buying the expensive burgers or that t-shirt etc.

Oh I would so love to mine the data that Disney must have.