Too many rooms -too few attractions???

[Yellowstonetim]

Yes, after all that amazing stuff at Universal that is so awesomely perfect and all the terrible ho-hum Fantasy land, in 2012 Universal was up an amazing and astounding... wait for it... 4%!!!! Aaaaaand, Disney dropped down a huge... wait for it... oh... keep on waiting, it didn't drop, Disney MK went up 2%+!

We don't have 2013 and New Fantasy Land numbers yet, although they won't be as big as desired. AND New Fantasy Land isn't done yet, the biggest new ride is not open.

Uni Studios did not get help from IOA, IOA got a deserved huge jump, but only Sea World suffered, and not terribly much. Disney hasn't lost anything and MK (after a slight economic dip in 2010) rose to record numbers. I don't think huge jumps are possible when you are already in the stratosphere.

Apparently a bunch of people came to Orlando for HP and, Disney and local folks turned out too. BUT there is none of this draining visitors from Disney, only SW. It will be interesting to see if Diakon Alley just helps US match IOA, or if it will boost both.

Disney is in no way quaking in their boots, worried, or anything. They are working to increase attendance and spread it out across all 4 parks. You'd think the way people talk around here that Disney's numbers have gone down steadily since HP opened and Universal have gone steadily up. Nope. And when you have 17 million people and rising, maybe new technology to help crowds is worth a huge investment.


Edit: See the statistics in the next post.

And, yes, here I go posting attendance figures off the internet again. I know, I know, they are just pesky facts and don't really mean anything compared to the expert bloggers that profess doom for Disney.

Internet experts and dime-a-dozen articles with no quotes aside, these are facts.

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. John Adams

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Sorry, here are the stats for 2008 to 2012:

 

[Bob Roberts]

No. Adding more places to sleep outside the parks does not make the parks have less rides.

Furthermore, the more the parks have attendance, the more money Disney has, which means more expansions and more rides.

Again, no.

Wow I only wish I could think like this, I am so jealous of people who are so naive. Being from Detroit you should know first hand the effects of corporate greed (profits out weighing any social or moral issue) in this modern age.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Wow I only wish I could think like this, I am so jealous of people who are so naive. Being from Detroit you should know first hand the effects of corporate greed (profits out weighing any social or moral issue) in this modern age.

I agree 100%

I can't see how this thought process is valid:

Billion dollar companies will "spread it around
More" if they make more...
That is incorrect in 99,95% of the case...especially if stock is involved.

The reason this is false in lake Buena Vista is because the consumers are not providing a reason to. We are not staying away for any of their decisions...whether they build or not.
So why build? There is no reason

More money isn't gonna change that...they'll just keep more monry

 

[Bob Roberts]

I agree 100%

I can't see how this thought process is valid:

Billion dollar companies will "spread it around
More" if they make more...
That is incorrect in 99,95% of the case...especially if stock is involved.

The reason this is false in lake Buena Vista is because the consumers are not providing a reason to. We are not staying away for any of their decisions...whether they build or not.
So why build? There is no reason

More money isn't gonna change that...they'll just keep more monry

Ding Dong and totally bang on again Locked out.

Hmmmmmmm I remember a certain year it might have been perhaps 2008. The markets crashed and our government gave the biggest Welfare checks of all time to the tyrants that created the mess in the first place. Everyone assumed this will be great because it will get credit going again and everyone will enjoy the benefits of it, but what happened?

Oh yeah that's right, they hoarded the money, bought up smaller banks that gave them competition and treated themselves to huge bonuses. A real feel good story here, but its true. Modern Disney operates very similar to these principles.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Wow I only wish I could think like this, I am so jealous of people who are so naive. Being from Detroit you should know first hand the effects of corporate greed (profits out weighing any social or moral issue) in this modern age.

DetroitDisney is spot on correct, not naïve.

First, there is no social or moral issue being ignored by Disney.

Second, This corporate behemoth makes its billions by doing one thing; making people happy: Movies, stuff, theme parks, etc.. A "for profit" corporation exists for one reason only; to make money. Call that greed if you want. It is what Walt excelled at and what the company continues to excel at: Parting people from their money by making them happy through a unique experience/product. The minute they stop, the flow of money will end. To make money they must make me happy. The more people they make happy the more money they make.

Capitalism at its finest! In fact one of the things I admire so much about Walt Disney is how he marketed himself and his product. He found a zillion different ways to charge money for his product and a zillion different ways to tier his product to make more money from people that had more money. AND, all the while he got people to love him and gladly give him that money because he gave them something wonderful.

Walt Disney is one of the most beloved Americans. He was also one of the greatest capitalists and money making geniuses ever!

I am glad Walt made lots of money. I am glad his company has billions pouring in. AND the more money it makes the more products we will get for a longer period of time into the future - movies like Forzen, theme park experiences like Pandora and Star Wars, etc. etc.

As soon as they start NOT making the majority of people happy, the money begins to dry up and they will change. Just because people around here cry because they don't get a new ride every two years, doesn't mean Disney isn't doing a good job. Note I said the majority. There will always be the few that hate everything they do, no matter what. But the fact that you hate what they are doing (while most of us love it and attendance and profits rise) doesn't mean they are evil, wrong, or the rest of us are blind or naïve.

Do we all want more rides? Sure. We will get them in time. In the mean time, Disney is doing a fine job providing me and many others with memorable and fun vacations.

 

[Bob Roberts]

DetroitDisney is spot on correct, not naïve.

First, there is no social or moral issue being ignored by Disney.

Second, This corporate behemoth makes its billions by doing one thing; making people happy: Movies, stuff, theme parks, etc.. A "for profit" corporation exists for one reason only; to make money. Call that greed if you want. It is what Walt excelled at and what the company continues to excel at: Parting people from their money by making them happy through a unique experience/product. The minute they stop, the flow of money will end. To make money they must make me happy. The more people they make happy the more money they make.

Capitalism at its finest! In fact one of the things I admire so much about Walt Disney is how he marketed himself and his product. He found a zillion different ways to charge money for his product and a zillion different ways to tier his product to make more money from people that had more money. AND, all the while he got people to love him and gladly give him that money because he gave them something wonderful.

Walt Disney is one of the most beloved Americans. He was also one of the greatest capitalists and money making geniuses ever!

I am glad Walt made lots of money. I am glad his company has billions pouring in. AND the more money it makes the more products we will get for a longer period of time into the future - movies like Forzen, theme park experiences like Pandora and Star Wars, etc. etc.

As soon as they start NOT making the majority of people happy, the money begins to dry up and they will change. Just because people around here cry because they don't get a new ride every two years, doesn't mean Disney isn't doing a good job. Note I said the majority. There will always be the few that hate everything they do, no matter what. But the fact that you hate what they are doing (while most of us love it and attendance and profits rise) doesn't mean they are evil, wrong, or the rest of us are blind or naïve.

Do we all want more rides? Sure. We will get them in time. In the mean time, Disney is doing a fine job providing me and many others with memorable and fun vacations.

Come back and talk to me in another 5 years and we will see how optimistic you are about Walt Disney World. Me and a few others can see what is coming from miles away. Some people on the other hand enjoy being blind and herded like sheep.

P.S When Walt ran Disney it was a totally different (private) company from the modern Wall Street Disney that we have today. What we have now is a group that is relying on the good name of Disney and they are milking everything for what its worth with minimum cost to themselves.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Come back and talk to me in another 5 years and we will see how optimistic you are about Walt Disney World. Me and a few others can see what is coming from miles away. Some people on the other hand enjoy being blind and herded like sheep.

P.S When Walt ran Disney it was a totally different (private) company from the modern Wall Street Disney that we have today. What we have now is a group that is relying on the good name of Disney and they are milking everything for what its worth with minimum cost to themselves.

Yes, we will see in 5 years when HP is old news, Pandora is open, AK is a popular day and night park, Star Wars is partly open and drawing humongous crowds, and I'm making another trip.

Up to today, attendance is up and profits are up, and millions like myself are happy.

That makes us neither blind nor sheep, just happy.

Walt was all about milking everything he could in every way he could for what is was worth with minimum cost to himself. That is why his company, private or public, was, and is, so successful.

In Walt's day there were people that hated Disneyland (like Travers) and their are some who don't like it now. But every measurable number and statistic says they are on track doing exactly what Walt would have wanted them to do.

In my opinion. And the opinion of the stockholders.

See you in 2018!

P.S. I don't think they are perfect and missteps may be made, but they will adjust and numbers and dollars will head back up.

 

[massmickeypal]

Yellowstonetim wrote"As soon as they start NOT making the majority of people happy, the money begins to dry up and they will change". I think this is why I started this thread. We have regularly gone to WDW but the feel is different with so many hotels everywhere and crowded transportation. I am not against progress but it feels like the balance between crowd size and number of attractions has reduced the value of a day in the park. To me it is simple supply and demand. Disney has done a great job creating demand for their services, and thus greater attendance, but has not moved quickly enough to supply new attractions and thus have diminished the value of the Disney experience. While they appear to be attempting to fix this through crowd control like FP+ and several refurbishments and new attractions the progress is slow. Maybe its unfair to compare the parks today to earlier times but they set the bar high and are now struggling to meet the standard they set.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Maybe its unfair to compare the parks today to earlier times but they set the bar high and are now struggling to meet the standard they set.

This is fodder for a whole thread. Things are different today, but we are all influenced by the past and our experiences. Yes, I remember when there was less people, less resorts, less parks. Some things are better - more stuff, some things worse- more crowds.

But human beings tend to have selective memory. In a pleasant vacation experience they tend to overlook the negatives. In other words: Most people remember the old days better than they actually were.

I personally would not change all that is available today for the lower crowds of yesterday.

 

[tidefan]

Come back and talk to me in another 5 years and we will see how optimistic you are about Walt Disney World. Me and a few others can see what is coming from miles away. Some people on the other hand enjoy being blind and herded like sheep.

P.S When Walt ran Disney it was a totally different (private) company from the modern Wall Street Disney that we have today. What we have now is a group that is relying on the good name of Disney and they are milking everything for what its worth with minimum cost to themselves.

You know what is funny about this thread...

This past summer, we happened to go to Southern California to attend a conference in Garden Grove. Being Disney fans that we are, we, of course decided to go to Disneyland for a few days. We did the research and found the SoCal CityPass, which includes a 3-day DL Parkhopper, a day at SeaWorld San Diego, and a day at Universal Hollywood. We were excited to try all of the parks!

Sea World was hit and miss. We liked the Manta coaster and the Cirque show, but I have to say that SW SD has the worst theme park show of all time, Madagascar Live. I don't even really know where to begin with this one, but it was so awful that it has ever since been the running joke in the family.

So, then we turned our attention to Universal and Disney. When we talked to everyone in California, it was almost THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you see bantered about in threads like this. Comments like "Disney has invested so much in DCA and made it awesome, you guys are going to love it. Universal is just letting it's park rot" from a SW employee was a general trend we heard while we were out there. Sure enough, we actually enjoyed DCA even more than DL (and we really liked DL - especially the number of rides compared to the MK as well as the fact that they make Churros on the spot in the Churro cart, but I digress...)

I was expecting a lot from CarsLand at DCA from what everyone was saying and it was (is) one of those rare things that not only met my expectations, but exceeded them. Now, our family is not huge fans of the Cars movie, but they did such an excellent job out there of the theming. It literally looks just like you are walking in the movie. We also noticed things like the fact that quick service places at DCA and DL used real silverware. Little things, but they all added up. To top things off, quite possibly our favorite thing, which we had heard of, but really didn't pay much prior attention to, was the World of Color show. That is very impressive if you have not seen it.

So rewind a bit and go to our day at Universal. It stunk. Universal Hollywood is a bad theme park. It seemed like they have put their eggs in the simulator type ride basket, but even those weren't that good. No one in our party could ride the new Transformers ride more than once. It basically reminded me of being in the Indiana Jones/Dinosaur type vehicle and thrown about in front of a bunch of 3D screens. I thought that a bad sign for it was that it didn't ever have a line. Comparatively, the Simpsons ride did have a wait, but it was just as bad as far as a simulation ride. (for fairness, I can do Star Tours type rides fine, but the Orange Mission Space, I do not do well on - don't like it either). The best thing at Universal Hollywood was the Waterworld show. We did think that was well done.

However, the saddest thing to me was just the state of the movie sets on the backlot tour themselves. Nothing there seemed to be kept up very well. Weirdly, the backlot tour at Universal reminded me of the Jungle Cruise at Disney. I guess they assume that everyone has been on before, so they just make corny jokes the whole time. Personally, I would have liked a lot more history about what was done there.

So, back to my main point. I don't think that it's Disney won't spend money and Universal will. I think that it's over the past 5 years, Disney has spent money in California (and yes, Florida too) and Universal has spent money in Florida. To be fair, the most I've ever done at Universal Orlando was to walk around CityWalk as we really wanted to wait to do Universal when our daughter was older so that she could ride all of the rides. Since we are not big HP fans (I liked it - movies and books - but not enough to want to go to a theme park version of it - of course, I felt the same way about the Cars movies, so who knows), I don't know when we will get to Universal Orlando. I assume that it is probably much, much better than it's Hollywood counterpart, so we probably will get there some day. But, both companies have invested, but their main focuses have been in different areas over the past 5 years.

We'll see what the future holds.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes, we will see in 5 years when HP is old news, Pandora is open, AK is a popular day and night park, Star Wars is partly open and drawing humongous crowds, and I'm making another trip.

Up to today, attendance is up and profits are up, and millions like myself are happy.

That makes us neither blind nor sheep, just happy.

Walt was all about milking everything he could in every way he could for what is was worth with minimum cost to himself. That is why his company, private or public, was, and is, so successful.

In Walt's day there were people that hated Disneyland (like Travers) and their are some who don't like it now. But every measurable number and statistic says they are on track doing exactly what Walt would have wanted them to do.

In my opinion. And the opinion of the stockholders.

See you in 2018!

P.S. I don't think they are perfect and missteps may be made, but they will adjust and numbers and dollars will head back up.

Woah...

You're giving WAY too much benefit of the doubt to something that is controlled by greedy men.

Everybody couldn't wait to get rid of Eisner...me Included...

Then CMB takes over... Announced "strengthening of the parks", rebrands the TV stations, and buys up Pixar... And we all say "he gets it...strong and conservative... Not maniac Hollywood genius"...then he buys marvel... And later Lucas...he REALLY gets it.

But the worm is turning... Because unlike Eisner he is by and large SITTING on it...and cheap suits like Staggs and Rasulo are what insiders and Disney employees hated the most about late Eisner. Yes men...no skill just nametags with stock options. No creativity.

The problem is once the "stockholders" get used to a slowing of growth/construction... It's never going back. Because that's lost profit/earnings/dividend, etc. it's not a loose spigot that can be turned on and off. The "market forces" take over and win.

Iger has done that. Use the strong IP/company history build up as collateral to borrow against.
And what they are borrowing is time... Stagnation that still posts impressive profits. I'm beginning to miss Michael E...even the crazy one. Because he had personal Investment. Big shot bobby doesn't...he's got the golden parachute strapped on and is ready to bail. Suits like that only care about the take up till the exit. That is going to be best be got by brand erosion. And that could be catastrophic.

And who next? The Disney board is a bunch of shills without pulses...you think they would "bother" to do an outside search? If it ain't broke...and the money is rolling in. Oh dear.

 

[manning]

Our annual passes expire the end of feb. We're down here now. Will we buy a new one. Not for quite awhile. And we own DVC.

We're here for three weeks. This is the first time we bought enough food to make for 90% of our stay. Have eaten so far off site, at far less prices. Watching the ferry go by on the canal is becoming fun.

The restaurants at the Swan/Dolphin are quite good. OK I did break down and ate at Germany.

Week and a half down, week and a half to good.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Woah...

You're giving WAY too much benefit of the doubt to something that is controlled by greedy men.

Everybody couldn't wait to get rid of Eisner...me Included...

Then CMB takes over... Announced "strengthening of the parks", rebrands the TV stations, and buys up Pixar... And we all say "he gets it...strong and conservative... Not maniac Hollywood genius"...then he buys marvel... And later Lucas...he REALLY gets it.

But the worm is turning... Because unlike Eisner he is by and large SITTING on it...and cheap suits like Staggs and Rasulo are what insiders and Disney employees hated the most about late Eisner. Yes men...no skill just nametags with stock options. No creativity.

The problem is once the "stockholders" get used to a slowing of growth/construction... It's never going back. Because that's lost profit/earnings/dividend, etc. it's not a loose spigot that can be turned on and off. The "market forces" take over and win.

Iger has done that. Use the strong IP/company history build up as collateral to borrow against.
And what they are borrowing is time... Stagnation that still posts impressive profits. I'm beginning to miss Michael E...even the crazy one. Because he had personal Investment. Big shot bobby doesn't...he's got the golden parachute strapped on and is ready to bail. Suits like that only care about the take up till the exit. That is going to be best be got by brand erosion. And that could be catastrophic.

And who next? The Disney board is a bunch of shills without pulses...you think they would "bother" to do an outside search? If it ain't broke...and the money is rolling in. Oh dear.

Exactly, Iger has no pride in it whatsoever. He could care less about the future of Walt Disney World.

Lets look at Chrysler, General Motors, and the Ford Motor company. They became complacent in the market place. The reason being is that they relied on their names for years and kept on selling vehicles with very old technology and very little investment on their part. They got away with this for a while but what happened? That's right, others came into the market with more innovative technology and practically put them out of business. If it wasn't for our government, they would not be here today.

Disney right now is doing what the Big 3 did in the past. The future is never a pretty sight when the major players involved are only concerned about their own personal bottom lines and are no longer being innovators in the field that gave them their name in the first place.

I can't believe some people on this board hooting and hollering for Iger because they get small dividend checks in the mail and it makes them feel like they are high rolling Wall Street tycoons.

 

[manning]

Exactly, Iger has no pride in it whatsoever. He could care less about the future of Walt Disney World.

Lets look at Chrysler, General Motors, and the Ford Motor company. They became complacent in the market place. The reason being is that they relied on their names for years and kept on selling vehicles with very old technology and very little investment on their part. They got away with this for a while but what happened? That's right, others came into the market with more innovative technology and practically put them out of business. If it wasn't for our government, they would not be here today.

Disney right now is doing what the Big 3 did in the past. The future is never a pretty site when the major players involved are only concerned about their own personal bottom lines and are no longer being innovators in the field that gave them their name in the first place.

I can't believe some people on this board hooting and hollering for Iger because they get small dividend checks in the mail and it makes them feel like they are high rolling Wall Street tycoons.

I look for stocks that have both good appreciation and dividends. Disney dividend isn't that great.

 

[ChrisFL]

The minute they stop, the flow of money will end. To make money they must make me happy. The more people they make happy the more money they make.

The problem is that quality has been declining for years...slowly but surely. People are realizing it. Now that its being accelerated by the MM+ fiasco, there's going to be a much bigger change of attitude, we're already seeing it from a lot of people on these boards.

The reason why attendance isn't declining (yet)....tour groups, Brazilians, Argentinians, Pop Warner, Cheerleaders, Band competitions, Golf Tournaments, and special events that bring the locals, Food and Wine, etc.

The point I'm getting at is all of this attendance isn't just families planning vacations, it's a lot of other groups that have been added into the mix that weren't there before.

MK's attendance may not be declining, but the complete stagnation of the other parks will be felt hard.

The idea that Avatar will be a bigger draw than HP is laughable at best. Star Wars is now being delayed for who knows how long, Iger will jump ship soon and the future after that is completely questionable.

 

[xie]

The problem is that quality has been declining for years...slowly but surely. People are realizing it. Now that its being accelerated by the MM+ fiasco, there's going to be a much bigger change of attitude, we're already seeing it from a lot of people on these boards.

The reason why attendance isn't declining (yet)....tour groups, Brazilians, Argentinians, Pop Warner, Cheerleaders, Band competitions, Golf Tournaments, and special events that bring the locals, Food and Wine, etc.

The point I'm getting at is all of this attendance isn't just families planning vacations, it's a lot of other groups that have been added into the mix that weren't there before.

It pains me so much to say it but yes, the quality and service have been declining since the mid 2000's. It has finally reached the point, for us, that the cost of the trip is too high for the level of service we received on our last two trips, so we have no plans to return for the foreseeable future.

In other words, while we can afford Disney's ridiculously (and continiously climbing) exorbitant prices, we don't feel what they are offering us in return is worth the cost. I'm done paying hundreds of dollars a night to stand in a hotel lobby for over an hour begging for a working room key, begging to be seated for my ADR (an hour late) so I can pay for overpriced food and spotty service, standing in line for anything and everything. Over it. I get a better room at a 100 dollar a night Hampton Inn and more pleasant service at the Cracker Barrel restaurant off the interstate on the drive down.

And we loved going to Disney. We don't understand why they've let it go. We'd be back there in a heartbeat if they truly fixed it.

They are rapidly replacing the middle class single families that were return guests with teenaged tour groups and one-and-done foreign visitors, who come for a few weeks on the trip of a lifetime and never return. And in so many ways that's a "cheaper" guest for them, not least because they come without such high expectations. In addition, those guests don't care about having "new stuff" to do on future trips they're never going to make. There's no pressure from them to improve.

If something happens to drive off the foreign tourists, say the dollar drastically strengthens against their currency's exchange rates or whatever, I don't know who will be left to go fill the rooms. Deals in the US will get sweeter I guess.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

The problem is that quality has been declining for years...slowly but surely. People are realizing it. Now that its being accelerated by the MM+ fiasco, there's going to be a much bigger change of attitude, we're already seeing it from a lot of people on these boards.

The reason why attendance isn't declining (yet)....tour groups, Brazilians, Argentinians, Pop Warner, Cheerleaders, Band competitions, Golf Tournaments, and special events that bring the locals, Food and Wine, etc.

The point I'm getting at is all of this attendance isn't just families planning vacations, it's a lot of other groups that have been added into the mix that weren't there before.

MK's attendance may not be declining, but the complete stagnation of the other parks will be felt hard.

The idea that Avatar will be a bigger draw than HP is laughable at best. Star Wars is now being delayed for who knows how long, Iger will jump ship soon and the future after that is completely questionable.

It pains me so much to say it but yes, the quality and service have been declining since the mid 2000's. It has finally reached the point, for us, that the cost of the trip is too high for the level of service we received on our last two trips, so we have no plans to return for the foreseeable future.

In other words, while we can afford Disney's ridiculously (and continiously climbing) exorbitant prices, we don't feel what they are offering us in return is worth the cost. I'm done paying hundreds of dollars a night to stand in a hotel lobby for over an hour begging for a working room key, begging to be seated for my ADR (an hour late) so I can pay for overpriced food and spotty service, standing in line for anything and everything. Over it. I get a better room at a 100 dollar a night Hampton Inn and more pleasant service at the Cracker Barrel restaurant off the interstate on the drive down.

And we loved going to Disney. We don't understand why they've let it go. We'd be back there in a heartbeat if they truly fixed it.

They are rapidly replacing the middle class single families that were return guests with teenaged tour groups and one-and-done foreign visitors, who come for a few weeks on the trip of a lifetime and never return. And in so many ways that's a "cheaper" guest for them, not least because they come without such high expectations. In addition, those guests don't care about having "new stuff" to do on future trips they're never going to make. There's no pressure from them to improve.

If something happens to drive off the foreign tourists, say the dollar drastically strengthens against their currency's exchange rates or whatever, I don't know who will be left to go fill the rooms. Deals in the US will get sweeter I guess.

I find both these observations fascinating. I could not disagree more. I am not questioning your personal experience and feelings, I just have had completely different experiences.

I went numerous times in in the 80's, several times in the 90's and then our first onsite stay in 2000. Then two trips in 2012 and 2013.

My experience was awesome. Good trip, great CM's, service, food. Loved all the parks and enjoyed all the rides. Didn't have problems and didn't find a fall-off in service or product.

Why is my experience so different than yours? I honestly don't know. Maybe I am not noticing as much, not as picky. Maybe I got lucky when I was there. I do not know, but I and many people like me find Disney provides a great quality product.

In fact I have even told people that when I went in 2012 after 11 years I didn't think Disney could live up to my 2000 experience and I was nervous. Turned out better than expected. But it was so great I was CERTAIN that 2013 would not be as good. Disney again met and exceeded my expectations!

 

[old lady]

They need more cool rideas so people can fill those rooms.

 

[MiramarQE]

I find both these observations fascinating. I could not disagree more. I am not questioning your personal experience and feelings, I just have had completely different experiences.

I went numerous times in in the 80's, several times in the 90's and then our first onsite stay in 2000. Then two trips in 2012 and 2013.

My experience was awesome. Good trip, great CM's, service, food. Loved all the parks and enjoyed all the rides. Didn't have problems and didn't find a fall-off in service or product.

Why is my experience so different than yours? I honestly don't know. Maybe I am not noticing as much, not as picky. Maybe I got lucky when I was there. I do not know, but I and many people like me find Disney provides a great quality product.

In fact I have even told people that when I went in 2012 after 11 years I didn't think Disney could live up to my 2000 experience and I was nervous. Turned out better than expected. But it was so great I was CERTAIN that 2013 would not be as good. Disney again met and exceeded my expectations!

Have to agree with ChrisFL and xie - my first visit was in middle school in Dec '71 - honeymoon at CR in 82, frequent stays since then, FL resident and VERY frequent stays since 2000.

WDW quality has run several cycles in those 42 years - and it is now about as low as I can remember. Food quality in both the QS and table service restaurants is down, and many of the "signatures" should be re-categorized - most are little better than a hospital ER where the goal is to get you in and out as fast as humanly possible while separating you from as much cash as they can.

Park cleanliness is just plain putrid compared to the '70s.

Disney now treats guests the way most doctor's offices treat patients - your time has no value.

The entire WDW process now seems to be "wring as many coppers from the poor wretches as we can in the time available" - inordinate waits for ADRs in restaurants that are half-empty but don't have enough staff (but we'll bill you $10/head if you don't show - or LEAVE after waiting 45 minutes - think I may challenge that with my CC company if they ever do it to me); FP+/MDE to try to "smooth" the logistics in the parks and cram as many guests as possible into as little time/space as possible (don't worry about properly testing it prior to implementation - let the paying guests test it); the completely ridiculous RapidFill mugs (like, we're losing the stockholder's shirts on guests getting free drinks at 1/10th cent/ounce so we put in a sophisticated computer-controlled system to control the loss).

Less flexibility for CMs to make changes/spread pixie dust (pull a team leader aside and you may get a truthful evaluation of the conditions they operate in - I've seen CMs close to tears seeing how guests are treated and they are literally powerless to change it - those IT systems being put in to improve logistics are tying their hands - they can't make them work either)

They are still the best game in town (we've been to Universal - it's "OK" but still second-fiddle, Busch Gardens is a one day diversion but no more) but they don't appear to be interested in opening their lead - or setting/maintaining high standards.

Maybe George Kalogridis can fix the disaster he inherited - but he has a BIG job in front of him.