Should I Buy Riviera?

[RoseGold]

I couldn't disagree more. RIV 1BR is a cheaper point chart than GFV.

And about equivalent to BLT. Remember, the standard view at Riviera is comparable to the theme park view at BLT: A view of theme park fireworks. Epcot from Riviera and MK from BLT.

So taking today as an example... For 1 night,
Riviera preferred is 50 points
BLT theme park view is 48 points
Riviera Epcot view is 40 points.
BLT lake view is 39 points

So if you want a view of a theme park and fireworks, Riviera is a much cheaper point chart than BLT.

If I'm going use VGF chart, I'd just buy VGF, which is what I did. It's actually walking distance to a park. I'm not sure how anyone can argue RIV has an equivalent location.

On the board sponsor's straight line math, BW and BLT points are cheaper than RIV points. Factor in how much cheaper a BW 1BR is, and BW flips the math, making resale look good, with A LOT less money upfront. BW's location is walking to two parks, along with one of the coolest resort experiences in North America.

Factor in RIV's resale restrictions, and I'm not buying at any price. I do see an argument for direct points, but not RIV in particular in this context. Mostly because of that brutal chart and the mediocre location AND the resale restriction. Heck, I'd argue AKL direct for OP over RIV.

https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/blog/best-economical-dvc-resorts-to-purchase-spring-2021/

 

[havoc315]

If I'm going use VGF chart, I'd just buy VGF, which is what I did. It's actually walking distance to a park. I'm not sure how anyone can argue RIV has an equivalent location.

It's subjective. If you're main purpose of DVC is to attend Epcot festivals, then walking distance to Magic Kingdom isn't a great perk. If you spend more time in Epcot/DHS on a typical trip than Magic Kingdom, you may prefer Riviera or another Epcot area resort.

On the board sponsor's straight line math, BW and BLT points are cheaper than RIV points. Factor in how much cheaper a BW 1BR is, and BW flips the math, making resale look good, with A LOT less money upfront. BW's location is walking to two parks, along with one of the coolest resort experiences in North America.

No idea what you're talking about. Direct -- RIV points are MUCH cheaper than BLT and BWV. Resale points are pretty close among all three resorts.

Yes, a 1 BR at BWV is much cheaper. Just like a room at Pop Century is much cheaper than a room at the Grand Floridian -- But the room at the Grand Floridian is MUCH bigger and nicer than the room at Pop Century. Same with BWV and Riviera --
813 SF vs 712 sf -- very noticeable difference in size (and quality).

"resort experience" is 100% subjective. I STRONGLY prefer the resort experience at Riviera. But different people will have different preferences.

Location -- I do think most people would agree BWV has a better location, walking is better than skyliner.

And finally objectively: 20 years vs 49 more years. And when factoring in the contract length, RIV is MUCH cheaper than BWV. Since we are actually talking about 1 BR-- I've done the math, it's cheaper to just pay cash for 1 BR units than to buy BWV points.

 

[RoseGold]

Sure, BW points cost a little more per year and the contract expires soon. The 1BR chart for tonight for BW/Riv is 30/40 standard or 36/50 preferred.

I don't think RIV is nicer than BW at all, certainly not 30%+ nicer. BW is not Pop, that's just silly. If you're staying at Pop, don't buy DVC at all. Math will never work.

There's something to be said for buying a timeshare that is 20K cheaper for this level of points and just not worrying about what happens to RIV resale with the resale restriction. And maybe BW and BC will be selling at more than straight line depreciation in ten years.

 

[sethschroeder]

If I'm going use VGF chart, I'd just buy VGF, which is what I did. It's actually walking distance to a park. I'm not sure how anyone can argue RIV has an equivalent location.

Except VGF couldn't even walk until 7 months ago? So those point charts preempt that.

On the board sponsor's straight line math

Which doesn't account for selling the contract at the conclusion.

In 2042 you will have basically a SSR length contract left to sell getting a sizeable amount back out.

Even before that you will see the 2042 resorts held back by length of term left.

 

[sethschroeder]

I don't think RIV is nicer than BW at all, certainly not 30%+ nicer.

It is much nicer except for location which you can walk instead of using the Skyliner. Plus you do have the boardwalk which is very nice.

RIV has larger rooms, hold more people in a 1BR, and already has the Murphy bed.

Also RIV has a more consolidated resort instead of being spread out.

Oh and for the pool having a smaller resort, less people, and no pool hopping are all positives as well. Plus the splash pad for little kids is much nicer than BWV.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

1 -- Maintenance fees really aren't that high for a new resort. The pattern has been that a new resort launches with high fees, but then they don't increase much the first few years.

RIV and CCV. I wouldn't call that a good pattern as they came out with some of the highest MF's in comparison to other new resorts.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Except VGF couldn't even walk until 7 months ago? So those point charts preempt that.



Which doesn't account for selling the contract at the conclusion.

In 2042 you will have basically a SSR length contract left to sell getting a sizeable amount back out.

Even before that you will see the 2042 resorts held back by length of term left.

IF things continue as they have. It's not a stretch but no one can state it's a given either.

 

[sethschroeder]

IF things continue as they have. It's not a stretch but no one can state it's a given either.

I mean I would think its a very long stretch to say you will not get back a good amount of what you paid upfront unless WDW falls off the map.

Even at $100/point that shaves off $5/point for the 20 years you owned it on the straight line math which it brings it under basically the whole chart that was shared.

 

[havoc315]

Except VGF couldn't even walk until 7 months ago? So those point charts preempt that.



Which doesn't account for selling the contract at the conclusion.

And I must assume, doesn't account for the full use of the contract through expiration, if you don't re-sell.

Even if you don't re-sell.... Some 2042, at BWV.. you now have nothing. If you want continued DVC ownership through 2070, you will need to buy a whole new contract -- which will be very expensive.
So what's cheaper -- Buying a RIV contract now....
Or buying BWV now, and then buying a GFV/POLY/CCV/RIV resale contract in 2042, in order to keep ownership into the 2060's?

There are a lot of permutations of the math. Depending on your intended use, there may not be a universal answer as to "best value." But by most calculations, at current pricing, it's hard to conclude that any 2042 resort would be a better value than a 2070 resort.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I mean I would think its a very long stretch to say you will not get back a good amount of what you paid upfront unless WDW falls off the map.

Even at $100/point that shaves off $5/point for the 20 years you owned it on the straight line math which it brings it under basically the whole chart that was shared.

I do agree but still no one can state that absolutely. Things fall out of favor and 20 years is a long time. Maybe Disney sells off the parks and the new operator mismanages. Maybe Disney mismanages. Maybe this pandemic was just a sign of more to come. Maybe......

There are a lot of companies that were HUGE when I was young that are no more.

Plus straightline isn't really great. Spending less now and in the near future costs can significantly add to what you have down the line. BWV resale is not the same cost as RIV direct, the dues are less and the room charts significantly less.

It isn't that difficult to book at standard 1BR so lets say you want to go in a moderately high point time - July. You could purchase a 218 point contract (200 will get you there for 11 years before a break)to book a standard view 1BR. It's not a stretch to purchase BWV at $140/pt so $30,520 up front but lets even go with the exact requirement of 218 points - $30,520. $1703 in dues for 2021.

RIV standard view 1BR for the same time requires 300 points. That currently is $180/pt or in Aug will go up to $185/pt. 300* 180 = $54,000. $2,515 in dues for 2021. So, take that $23,480 in savings for BWV purchase plus the $812 dues savings, invest it AND walk to the park from your room that required only 2/3's the points. Keep contributing the dues savings annual but I'll lessen it to the amount it would be if the dues were identical so around $687/year that also will go into the investment.

Even at a modest 4% return but following those parameters you'll have $72,000. You might consider that the replacement for selling something in 2042 which on 218 points would be the equivalent of $330/pt. How does that sound to have left in 20 years?

 

[sethschroeder]

BWV resale is not the same cost as RIV direct

Except we are talking about Direct the resale piece was brought up but buying RIV direct and then selling in 2042 will have straight line math show RIV cheaper. I am not a huge fan of the chart but its mean to gauge SAP points not so much resort vs resort total cost of ownership.

218 point contract to book a standard view 1BR

RIV standard view 1BR for the same time requires 300 points.

As pointed out though:
RIV Standard View can see Epcot fireworks from balcony (so I am already at 264 if staying at BWV for the Boardwalk View)
RIV also has bigger rooms, actually sleeps 5 without a blow-up mattress, and already has murphy beds

dues are less and the room charts significantly less.

MFs difference will continue to shrink for the next 1-3 years likely. Also as you outlined if this is during the summer you could get a BWV room with your RIV points in a 1BR.

You might consider that the replacement for selling something in 2042 which on 218 points would be the equivalent of $330/pt. How does that sound to have left in 20 years?

Except you won't get BWV 2.0 at 218 points for that week. The point charts will inflate and being very conservative we say the Standard View goes to 250 points for that week in a 1BR. That is now $288/points which is not that good of a deal at all. Lets say more realistically is 275-300 points for the week in a 1BR at BWV 2.0 at which point we are around $240-$261/point which I think its extremely unrealistic.

So no I don't think your math works out very well and thats with not accounting for being able to use the RIV direct at any resort including BWV if I were going in summer. Also for the next 20 years you would have direct points and what benefits those get you so the savings could stack up if you are able to get ticket/ap discounts.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Except we are talking about Direct the resale piece was brought up but buying RIV direct and then selling in 2042 will have straight line math show RIV cheaper. I am not a huge fan of the chart but its mean to gauge SAP points not so much resort vs resort total cost of ownership.





As pointed out though:
RIV Standard View can see Epcot fireworks from balcony (so I am already at 264 if staying at BWV for the Boardwalk View)
RIV also has bigger rooms, actually sleeps 5 without a blow-up mattress, and already has murphy beds



MFs difference will continue to shrink for the next 1-3 years likely. Also as you outlined if this is during the summer you could get a BWV room with your RIV points in a 1BR.



Except you won't get BWV 2.0 at 218 points for that week. The point charts will inflate and being very conservative we say the Standard View goes to 250 points for that week in a 1BR. That is now $288/points which is not that good of a deal at all. Lets say more realistically is 275-300 points for the week in a 1BR at BWV 2.0 at which point we are around $240-$261/point which I think its extremely unrealistic.

So no I don't think your math works out very well and thats with not accounting for being able to use the RIV direct at any resort including BWV if I were going in summer. Also for the next 20 years you would have direct points and what benefits those get you so the savings could stack up if you are able to get ticket/ap discounts.

Mixing $$$'s vs features and also not considering the parameters I used such as that the dues would be equal even though right now BWV is less and the lower point requirement means it's a decent amount less. BWV 2.0? Not even part of any equation as it doesn't exist. Fireworks from the balcony? You get that now and have for years from BWV boardwalk view and also from a few of the high standard view rooms. Not all of Riviera has the fireworks view from the balcony either. BWV - you could walk less than 5 minutes and stand on the bridge to get an even better view or walk into the park and be back in the time you're loading on the Skyliner. It's fine to not care for BWV but the numbers are not dismal in a comparison $$$ wise to Riviera. It's not keeping RIV in a straightline comparison because I was simply comparing purchasing today and what that savings could turn into in 20 years thru the up front buy in and lower point charts and how that could/would offset having nothing to sell in 2042. You think Riviera is the best thing since sliced bread and that's great but it doesn't mean that monetarily it's the best. I did mention walkability but the post was really about $$$'s spent. With all the DVC resorts you then start hitting nuances of what's best for each owner but I wanted to point out that $$$ wise it's not this great divide and is probably still more expensive for RIV than certain 2042 resorts. Then it's the decision of each buyer if that additional cost is worth it.

 

[MBTigger]

If you are truly looking at 1 bedroom units, (Which I really prefer do to dietary requirements in our household) the big question is "What will Riv 1 bedrooms availability be like at 7 months?"

I suspect Riv 1 bedroom availability will be OK for the next 10-15 years until a big percentage of Riv is resale (cannot say the same about STUDIOS). If you love AKV I would buy direct there, and buy enough extra points so you could stay at Riv every other year (or a split stay every trip. Which I kind of like). Also, AKV would get you a chance at the value rooms - not likely to happen, but nice if you manage it.

 

[sethschroeder]

It's fine to not care for BWV but the numbers are not dismal in a comparison $$$ wise to Riviera

I own BWV and its my second favorite resort on property. I also never said dismal or even said when actually comparing that RIV would be less expensive depending on the person individually.

BWV 2.0? Not even part of any equation as it doesn't exist.

I quoted you exactly stating I could use that $72k to buy in 2042. I am saying its unlikely I could do that. Which is part of the equation when comparing BWV vs RIV.

You think Riviera is the best thing since sliced bread and that's fine but it doesn't mean that monetarily it's the best.

I never said it was the cheapest but others do try to claim RIV is extremely high/over priced compared to other resorts which is what I don't agree with and I try to call out information regarding.

Mixing $$$'s vs features and also not considering the parameters I used such as that the dues would be equal even though right now BWV is less and the lower point requirement means it's a decent amount less.

I went from RIV-never to RIV-buyer last year when I did all the math myself and realized RIV wasn't that much more than BWV for our family. Your math stopped where you wanted to stop it and was not exhaustive.

Things that also need to be thought of:

• Direct perks: AP or Ticket Discounts Value
• Staying elsewhere? So will the points be enough or too many (BWV staying at BLT or RIV staying at BWV or ...)
• MFs will contract further over the next 1-3 years and not stay at a $0.57 difference in BWV favor
• What happens in 2042 (selling, buying, holding)
• What is happening with "extra" money will you actually invest it or just use it on something else? (so will you get investment returns or no)
• When you see the math are you looking for the cheapest option or what cost to you apply to things like bigger rooms, more sleeping surfaces for kids, walking to parks, ect

I also never said RIV was the right choice but I am calling out missing things with the math and information being provided. This thread was all about buying direct as well so try comparing BWV Direct vs RIV Direct. I think I even outlined that RIV would likely be more expensive than SSR/OKW/AKV when comparing direct purchase options.

 

[havoc315]

I do agree but still no one can state that absolutely. Things fall out of favor and 20 years is a long time. Maybe Disney sells off the parks and the new operator mismanages. Maybe Disney mismanages. Maybe this pandemic was just a sign of more to come. Maybe......

There are a lot of companies that were HUGE when I was young that are no more.

Plus straightline isn't really great. Spending less now and in the near future costs can significantly add to what you have down the line. BWV resale is not the same cost as RIV direct, the dues are less and the room charts significantly less.

It isn't that difficult to book at standard 1BR so lets say you want to go in a moderately high point time - July. You could purchase a 218 point contract (200 will get you there for 11 years before a break)to book a standard view 1BR. It's not a stretch to purchase BWV at $140/pt so $30,520 up front but lets even go with the exact requirement of 218 points - $30,520. $1703 in dues for 2021.

RIV standard view 1BR for the same time requires 300 points.

Riviera costs more points -- because it is a more expensive room.

That currently is $180/pt or in Aug will go up to $185/pt. 300* 180 = $54,000. $2,515 in dues for 2021. So, take that $23,480 in savings for BWV purchase plus the $812 dues savings, invest it AND walk to the park from your room that required only 2/3's the points. Keep contributing the dues savings annual but I'll lessen it to the amount it would be if the dues were identical so around $687/year that also will go into the investment.

Even at a modest 4% return but following those parameters you'll have $72,000. You might consider that the replacement for selling something in 2042 which on 218 points would be the equivalent of $330/pt. How does that sound to have left in 20 years?

Honestly... That's a bit silly. If you don't buy either, and only pay cash for BWV, then you can have $500,000 in 20 years!

But the key, to all things -- You get what you pay for. BWV is cheaper than Riviera -- Because to the market as a whole, Riviera is better than BWV -- Bigger nicer rooms, nicer pools, nicer resort. Now, it's subjective -- Not everyone will agree. So people who prefer BWV can get a GREAT deal -- They can get a resort that they subjectively believe that is nicer, and it can be cheaper!!

People who believe Riviera is nicer -- To them, it is worth paying more for Riviera.

And it's not really more, when you account for the difference in years.

Even more critically -- BWV is a complete rip-off for 1 bedrooms.

Let's use your math: $140 per point for resale, plus just under $8 per point in dues.
20 years left in BWV -- So that's paying $15 per point, per year.
You can typically rent points for $16-$18. And then you don't have to put down a big down payment.

So if I just rented points for $16-$18... and put that $30,000 into savings, instead of a buying points: The compounded interest, with annual withdrawals.. would allow that $30,000 investment to last 20 years, at a 4% return.
If I can rent points for $16-$17 -- Then that becomes CHEAPER than buying BWV for 1 bedrooms.
If I can rent points for $18-$19 per point, then it's about break even.
If I can rent points for about $20-$21 per point, then I get miniscule savings by purchasing BWV on re-sale.
If I can get a 5% return on that $30,000 -- Then it's almost impossible to save any money by purchasing DVC.

Now, it totally depends on how you use the points. But buying BWV re-sale points for the purposes of renting a 1 bedroom, is 1 of the worst possible rip-offs.

 

[DVCsloth]

Riviera is a newer nicer resort in my opinion so it makes sense that it is more expensive. If you own Boardwalk you have an awesome resort and great point chart but, I wouldn't pay direct and I'm not interested in restricted points. Love the Skyliner and I love the Riviera resort. I don't think the standard room point chart is that bad but you will most likely need to own there to book them regularly. I'm not an owner there because of the resale restrictions and I really love the Wilderness lodge so I added CCV instead.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

RIV is a beautiful resort but it has awful resale restrictions. Wish we purchased last year with the covid price drop as i think resale will not be as much of a loss for those buyers.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

All your RR concerns are valid, especially regarding the MFs and the skyliner. And the points chart is crazy high! I’d buy BLT resale. 1 and 2 BRs are huge with extra bathrooms. Walking distance to MK and monorail to Epcot. 2060 expiration. Probably will get a Murphy pull down during next refurb. Plethora of resort amenities and close proximity to VGF, Poly, and CCV restaurants. And MFs are one of the lowest in all of DVC. While RR room layouts are the best in all of DVC, the ridiculous points chart is not worth owning. Having said that, DVC is an emotional investment and your addonitis will never stop until you get what your heart desires. Just buy 250 direct points at RR and be done with!

 

[Paul Stupin]

I totally agree about the emotional component to buying DVC. One could even argue that the bedrock assumption behind every single DVC purchase, that we will all want to keep returning to WDW every year consistently for much of our lives, that our tastes will never change, that what makes us happy now will not alter the slightest as years go by, is a bit suspect. Is it really that good an idea to prepay for the exact same vacation for decades?

That said, who cares?! We love it. It’s a luxury purchase and it makes us happy. For me, there’s a psychological component to the 2042 expiration dates that doesn’t sit well with me. Though I certainly am aware that there’s a way to crunch the numbers and make it work, I just don’t like the notion of paying a large amount for any resale or direct contract that expires so soon, that will be worthless so quickly. For me, the longer expiration dates are a hedge against our potential changing tastes as well. If my feelings about WDW change in 20 years, I can always get a potentially good percentage of my initial cash outlay back. And if prices keep going up (for the later expiration date resorts), the cost of my vacations will be my maintenance fees.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

I totally agree about the emotional component to buying DVC. One could even argue that the bedrock assumption behind every single DVC purchase, that we will all want to keep returning to WDW every year consistently for much of our lives, that our tastes will never change, that what makes us happy now will not alter the slightest as years go by, is a bit suspect. Is it really that good an idea to prepay for the exact same vacation for decades?

That said, who cares?! We love it. It’s a luxury purchase and it makes us happy. For me, there’s a psychological component to the 2042 expiration dates that doesn’t sit well with me. Though I certainly am aware that there’s a way to crunch the numbers and make it work, I just don’t like the notion of paying a large amount for any resale or direct contract that expires so soon, that will be worthless so quickly. For me, the longer expiration dates are a hedge against our potential changing tastes as well. If my feelings about WDW change in 20 years, I can always get a potentially good percentage of my initial cash outlay back. And if prices keep going up (for the later expiration date resorts), the cost of my vacations will be my maintenance fees.

I completely agree with everything! Riviera is most appealing because of the 2070 exp. But the greatest unknown is what the resale restrictions will do to its long term price point on the resale market. Outside of that and MFs, I think the resort looks absolutely amazing.