Pride month at Disney...

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And why SHOULDN'T people feel bad about the way minorities have been treated? If you can read books/watch movies/listen to stories about slavery and NOT feel remorse/empathy, you should probably interrogate that. It's like watching Schindler's List and not feeling upset about the Holocaust.
"Feeling bad" <> "feeling guilty" which is what PP claimed (and has been claimed on the internet and by politicians). I'd like to know exactly how teachers (according to PP it's happening in multiple educational levels) are making others feel guilty.
 
Mostly was done by liberals and leftist.
That is 100% true, and I know a number of people who had to (and did!) face themselves and have a reckoning about that.

They read newspapers about villages being burned, kids being killed, and other atrocities committed by American soldiers in SE Asia. All of that was true, but during Vietnam the majority of those who served were poorer and younger than in prior wars. They were traumatized kids, some commanded by criminals who lied (also fact) up the chain to the President.

My point? Reality, society, and people are complicated. No one is just one thing. No group of humans can be categorized or defined by one aspect of their being. But anyone can choose to amplify an aspect of self (being a Veteran, being a woman, being a Firefighter, being Trans). Why not tell everyone “Hey. I know it’s hard to tell the world something important to you and hope they respect it. I’m honestly trying to see you as an individual. Thank you for your patience”

That’s what those Vietnam vets deserved. And it’s what LGBTQ+ folks deserve, and it’s what we all deserve if we are being genuine.
 
This sums it up nicely. But...I will never understand why a small, but very loud group of people won't just let another group of people celebrate a marginalized group for one month. And it's really more like the first couple of weekends in June....that's it. But, because the media they watch has fired up the culture war on this topic, they seem to be positively tripping over grooming drag queens and newly gendered underage teens rolling off assembly lines somewhere. I just don't get it.

I know plenty of gay people....have em' in my family even....and yet I don't know a single drag queen or transperson. You have to go out of your way to find drag queens....I mean, they gather....at places....to entertain customers. Transpeople are just trying desperately to be who they are. In many cases, if they don't get to be that person, they take their life. I will just never for the life of me understand what makes people so angry about all of this. Unless it triggers them somehow for their own personal internal reasons.

I do know several drag queens. And they are uniformly sweet, kind, caring people who are fiercely protective of the vulnerable, INCLUDING children. They know what it's like to be marginalized and hated, and how horrible kids can be to each other. So they go out of their way to make others feel safe and seen and protected. The whole idea that they're "grooming kids" just hurts my heart. They would NEVER do anything to harm a child, or anyone else, in any way whatsoever.

Do you have any examples of that "going on"? I mean I've heard it does, but I've never heard how. Are teachers flat out saying "if you're white, you should feel guilty of how minorities have been treated?"

I've never seen it. But when I travel, I often stay in hostels, which tend to have large populations of international travelers. One time we stayed a couple of weeks at a hostel with a group of German high school students and their chaperones. My dad's Jewish, and the subject of the Holocaust came up in conversation. The kids explained it like this: Germany doesn't shy away, at all, from teaching exactly what happened. It starts in the earliest grades and goes more in-depth as they get older. Because Germans are unafraid to call it what it was: an absolute atrocity that can never be repeated. They said they do feel some guilt, and even apologized to my father. He basically said that they, themselves, weren't responsible for it, none of us were alive then, and they had no reason to feel guilty. And the kids said something along the lines of, "No. We should feel guilty, because we carry that legacy. And that's okay, because it reminds us to be better people each and every day."

I realize that one group of high school students doesn't speak for all Germans. But I really liked their perspective on it. This happened, it's part of our legacy, but we're using that collective memory to help us become better people. What's wrong with that?

I'm not the OP, but I read of one person using the example that their tween child read a book in school about the first Black children to attend desegregated schools, and the protests and hate they encountered. Reading the book about how these kids were treated made the child feel sad and cry.

The mom interpreted this as the school making the child feel guilty about being white. Personally I interpret it as the child was having empathy for fellow humans suffering in difficult situations. I think it's okay for my kids to feel sad when they read and learn about the suffering of others, and I don't equate that sadness to guilt.
People forget that this didn't happen all that long ago. I suspect that a lot of the angst comes from people who were alive during desegregation and don't want their grandkids to learn that grandma was the one throwing rocks.
 


My values deserve tolerance because they are my values. Just like your values deserve tolerance because they are your values.

Not who you were responding to but...
Conservative/Traditional:
-believing in pro-life (not hindering access to abortions, but providing alternatives....increased access to BC, support for those in crisis, funding for foster care and adoptions)
-having religious beliefs (specifically Christian)
-believing that marriage is between man/woman (but not hindering those that choose to engage in a same-sex marriage/union, respecting their ability and choice of spouse, free will and all of that)
-believe that transitioning should only be done for those 18+...no hormone replacement, no puberty blockers for underage
-women's sports are for xx women
I literally have the opposite opinion on all of your values.
 


That is 100% true, and I know a number of people who had to (and did!) face themselves and have a reckoning about that.

They read newspapers about villages being burned, kids being killed, and other atrocities committed by American soldiers in SE Asia. All of that was true, but during Vietnam the majority of those who served were poorer and younger than in prior wars. They were traumatized kids, some commanded by criminals who lied (also fact) up the chain to the President.

My point? Reality, society, and people are complicated. No one is just one thing. No group of humans can be categorized or defined by one aspect of their being. But anyone can choose to amplify an aspect of self (being a Veteran, being a woman, being a Firefighter, being Trans). Why not tell everyone “Hey. I know it’s hard to tell the world something important to you and hope they respect it. I’m honestly trying to see you as an individual. Thank you for your patience”

That’s what those Vietnam vets deserved. And it’s what LGBTQ+ folks deserve, and it’s what we all deserve if we are being genuine.

When I was an impressionable teenager I had watched the move Full Metal Jacket. I was talking with a freind (also a teenager) about it, and we talked about how hard to watch the boot camp sequence is. He was very critical of the Gunnery Sergeant (brilliantly played by R. Lee Ermey). I countered that they had to be tough because they are training killers. He responded with, "No, they are training defenders. At least they should be." That simple explanation had an incredible impact on how I see the world. It also highlights how so many mistakes were made regarding how the Vietnam War was handled, and I agree it's not all those kids' fault who got sucked into that system.
 
I do know several drag queens. And they are uniformly sweet, kind, caring people who are fiercely protective of the vulnerable, INCLUDING children. They know what it's like to be marginalized and hated, and how horrible kids can be to each other. So they go out of their way to make others feel safe and seen and protected. The whole idea that they're "grooming kids" just hurts my heart. They would NEVER do anything to harm a child, or anyone else, in any way whatsoever.



I've never seen it. But when I travel, I often stay in hostels, which tend to have large populations of international travelers. One time we stayed a couple of weeks at a hostel with a group of German high school students and their chaperones. My dad's Jewish, and the subject of the Holocaust came up in conversation. The kids explained it like this: Germany doesn't shy away, at all, from teaching exactly what happened. It starts in the earliest grades and goes more in-depth as they get older. Because Germans are unafraid to call it what it was: an absolute atrocity that can never be repeated. They said they do feel some guilt, and even apologized to my father. He basically said that they, themselves, weren't responsible for it, none of us were alive then, and they had no reason to feel guilty. And the kids said something along the lines of, "No. We should feel guilty, because we carry that legacy. And that's okay, because it reminds us to be better people each and every day."

I realize that one group of high school students doesn't speak for all Germans. But I really liked their perspective on it. This happened, it's part of our legacy, but we're using that collective memory to help us become better people. What's wrong with that?
There's a fascinating documentary, Forbidden Films: The Hidden Legacy of Nazi Film, about the pre-war Nazi propaganda films, made by and for people to justify what eventually led to the Holocaust, to inspire the masses. These films were so dangerous and convincing because they presented this propaganda as fact, and they played on the viewers' desire for scapegoats and justification for their hate. These dangerous films are now kept under lock and key, and only shown in strictly controlled screenings to audiences with professionals on hand to lead discussions after, because they're still convincing to this day! It's worth checking out.

 
Isn’t everyone racist because of the color of their skin? It’s when hate, fear, and resentment show up because of that that it becomes a problem.
I become very angry when I am at my place of employment and I am being reprimanded for the color of my skin.
 
When I was an impressionable teenager I had watched the move Full Metal Jacket. I was talking with a freind (also a teenager) about it, and we talked about how hard to watch the boot camp sequence is. He was very critical of the Gunnery Sergeant (brilliantly played by R. Lee Ermey). I countered that they had to be tough because they are training killers. He responded with, "No, they are training defenders. At least they should be." That simple explanation had an incredible impact on how I see the world. It also highlights how so many mistakes were made regarding how the Vietnam War was handled, and I agree it's not all those kids' fault who got sucked into that system.
You were right, your friend was not. Soldiers, by definition, are trained to get past the human instinct not to kill other humans. That’s what FMJ was about.

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When I was an impressionable teenager I had watched the move Full Metal Jacket. I was talking with a freind (also a teenager) about it, and we talked about how hard to watch the boot camp sequence is. He was very critical of the Gunnery Sergeant (brilliantly played by R. Lee Ermey). I countered that they had to be tough because they are training killers. He responded with, "No, they are training defenders. At least they should be." That simple explanation had an incredible impact on how I see the world. It also highlights how so many mistakes were made regarding how the Vietnam War was handled, and I agree it's not all those kids' fault who got sucked into that system.
Having been drafted into the Army and trained as an infantry soldier (11B) before being sent to Vietnam I can tell you that yes, we were trained to kill. We learned more than I care to remember about that.

I'll refrain from any further comment about the experience and hope the discussion can get back to the overall discrimination topic.
 
You were right, your friend was not. Soldiers, by definition, are trained to get past the human instinct not to kill other humans. That’s what FMJ was about.

.

Yes, but his point was that that shouldn't be the primary goal. I understand that that is the case, but a small difference in thinking could have made all the difference in how that war - or any war - is handled.
 
Yes, but his point was that that shouldn't be the primary goal. I understand that that is the case, but a small difference in thinking could have made all the difference in how that war - or any war - is handled.
Im not sure. That presumes that war can be civilized in some fashion. I don’t believe it can. I believe that damage to and sometimes Destruction of soldiers’ humanity is inherent in war
 
I do want to add, there are gay people who are very uncomfortable with the whole "Rainbow Hoopla". A very close co-worker of mine was one of the few that sat inside during the raising of our Pride Flag at work.

He is an amazing person, with an equally amazing husband. They have two children and a very naughty dog:rotfl:

He is just a normal person who doesn't want people clapping and ooohing and ahhhing that he is gay. He rolls his eyes at the commercialization of the rainbow. He doesn't want strangers telling him that they are his ally. He doesn't need or want that. He cringes. He just wants to lead his normal, boring life.

Not everyone is like him, but just giving a different perspective.
 
I do want to add, there are gay people who are very uncomfortable with the whole "Rainbow Hoopla". A very close co-worker of mine was one of the few that sat inside during the raising of our Pride Flag at work.

He is an amazing person, with an equally amazing husband. They have two children and a very naughty dog:rotfl:

He is just a normal person who doesn't want people clapping and ooohing and ahhhing that he is gay. He rolls his eyes at the commercialization of the rainbow. He doesn't want strangers telling him that they are his ally. He doesn't need or want that. He cringes. He just wants to lead his normal, boring life.

Not everyone is like him, but just giving a different perspective.
The people who love the “hoopla” are also “normal people”.
 
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