Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[lockedoutlogic]

Anyone that has ever been to the two hotels can easily tell the difference in Quality.

Personally I think that Disney has pretty clearly defined their categories - and nothing has changed on that.

There's no way that the remains of CBR - regardless of what happens with this new section - can be converted to anything more than a moderate. The resort is too spread out, the rooms are too small. There's no elevators...the amenities are weak. (Yes, the new CBR pool is quite nice, but that doesn't cover it.) I don't see there being anyway to change the definition of the resort to anything besides "moderate".

I'm wondering if this is where the disconnect is?

 

[dlavender]

I'm wondering if this is where the disconnect is?

Its gotta be...

It's like saying if Disney only added pool slides to the values, and changed their marketing, they could command moderate pricing.

No, no, and no.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Its gotta be...

It's like saying if Disney only added pool slides to the values, and changed their marketing, they could command moderate pricing.

No, no, and no.

Are we talking really cool slides? Or the 12 ft shoots of the moderates?

 

[rteetz]

Just wanted to add that permits were filed for the installation of construction trailers today. They obviously want to get a start on this project sooner rather than later.

 

[Roxyfire]

Just wanted to add that permits were filed for the installation of construction trailers today. They obviously want to get a start on this project sooner rather than later.

Well thats good for us since we're all anxious to see what they're up to. Hopefully not by blowing up the DVC charts for those already in it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

...exactly

 

[Budshark]

A tower the size of Bay lake doesn't seem in order at Caribbean...

I can't see a 15 story tower being put inside the property of the existing Caribbean...that leads me to think more of a parceling off of the grounds and a completely different development altogether

This more likely. There really is 2 options right?

Moderate DVC with all its problems - either as a new class of DVC separate from current (ugh) or same but lower point values... but they'd have to go REALLY low to justify.
OR
They want the land and infrastructure, but are building a stand alone resort (ala OKW) that will neighbor but not be part of CBR. Thus, they can make it a Deluxe and alleviate the "but its a Moderate" argument.

 

[LaidBackDad]

How so??? I have no idea where you're getting this from. Have you been to either of these resorts recently?!



This constant point of your argument is making me nuts..https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/planning-guides/in-depth-advice/first-trip/

While vague in this example, Disney clearly has criteria for what they define as value, moderate, and deluxe.

In fact, on their FAQ (which I cannot access right now, I am getting a 404, which is probably my network here at work and not Disney's page) they have a list of hotels that they define in each category.

View attachment 217876
And if you'll accept it, here is a very good breakdown of resort category from Touring Plans.

http://blog.touringplans.com/2012/0...rence-between-disney-world-resort-categories/
At one point Disney actually did have a page you could click on that described the categories. I've been hunting for it all morning, but I have patients now so I have to be more subtle in my Disney searching.

Easy, easy. No one is saying there isn't a difference in the quality of resorts. I'm saying, don't by into the hype of what a deluxe, moderate, or value should be. OKW and SSR have more in common with POR / POFQ and than they do GF or Poly and their price or points show it. If you want to see what a moderate DVC is or would look like, it is SSR and OKW not CBR tower. If you read the info about what makes a deluxe resort, the biggest difference between the 2 are the room entrances (interior hallway entrance or exterior entrance). The Disney "rules" for a deluxe also say they are supposed to have easy park access; OKW and SSR do not have it. CBR tower will have it. It won't sell without better access to the parks. What will you call the rest of CBR when the new access is completed, a moderate resort with deluxe amenities better than some of the so called deluxe. It will have all of the "check marks" of what a deluxe hotel is supposed to be except for interior rooms and the tower will likely have interior hallways. That's all I'm trying to say, no agenda. Just go by the price of what a room will cost and how nice it is or what it has to offer. Don't get hung up on the hype of what marketing says is deluxe, moderate, or value. Just because CBR is classified as a moderate now doesn't mean the new DVC tower won't be really nice and worthy of a deluxe tag.

... and yes, there will be direct access to Epcot and probably DHS. Not just because Google Maps tells you, but because the laws of economics dictates it, the DVC model justifies it, and the valuation of the real estate and the maximization of its value warrants it. I have 100% confidence that @lockedoutlogic knows his stuff when it comes to CBR. Probably too much so and that it is likely more of a hindrance than helpful in this situation. Crossing a road does not equal a logistical and operational dilemma which can only be solved by creating some sort of space sky walk which can only be constructed using diamonds and spider silk.

 

[LaidBackDad]

A tower the size of Bay lake doesn't seem in order at Caribbean...

I can't see a 15 story tower being put inside the property of the existing Caribbean...that leads me to think more of a parceling off of the grounds and a completely different development altogether

I thought I read the tower was supposed to be around 7 stories judging off of the reported height of the test balloons that were spotted a while back.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I thought I read the tower was supposed to be around 7 stories judging off of the reported height of the test balloons that were spotted a while back.

Then that limits the amount of units that can be built in the space...making the return smaller...making the investment not as attractive.

Domino effect.

 

[Madonna3]

The Disney "rules" for a deluxe also say they are supposed to have easy park access; OKW and SSR do not have it.

so the boat to Disney Springs doesn't count then?

CBR tower will have it. It won't sell without better access to the parks.

I think this is where we agree.

... and yes, there will be direct access to Epcot and probably DHS. Not just because Google Maps tells you, but because the laws of economics dictates it, the DVC model justifies it, and the valuation of the real estate and the maximization of its value warrants it. I have 100% confidence that @lockedoutlogic knows his stuff when it comes to CBR. Probably too much so and that it is likely more of a hindrance than helpful in this situation. Crossing a road does not equal a logistical and operational dilemma which can only be solved by creating some sort of space sky walk which can only be constructed using diamonds and spider silk.

Again, this is where we agree *IF* and only *IF* this is earmarked for DVC

 

[lockedoutlogic]

... and yes, there will be direct access to Epcot and probably DHS. Not just because Google Maps tells you, but because the laws of economics dictates it, the DVC model justifies it, and the valuation of the real estate and the maximization of its value warrants it. I have 100% confidence that @lockedoutlogic knows his stuff when it comes to CBR. Probably too much so and that it is likely more of a hindrance than helpful in this situation. Crossing a road does not equal a logistical and operational dilemma which can only be solved by creating some sort of space sky walk which can only be constructed using diamonds and spider silk.

First, your idea of "maximization of real estate value" doesn't quite fit...because that is assuming a competitive market. Wdw is not a competitive real estate market.

And I would suggest you look at the USGS maps for the area...they're tedious, but if I can get through them, anyone can

Have you ever built anything in Florida? Do you know where the water table is?

You may get direct access...but it not easy. The roadway alone makes it hard, as does the service area, as does the distance from the international gateway, as does the complete inadequacy of the current Caribbean facilities to attract the dvc crowd ($25,000 upfront + $1000 annually commitment - whether you go or not) to cater to that demographic....
...but you have to relocate the water and integrate it into the system on the property and beyond.

They can do it...they are good at it. But it's going to be a lot more expensive than you think because it's clear you don't really understand the variables involved.

An expensive connector for a 200 unit dvc unit that may not pull in the high out of pocket spending clientele is not an economic "no brainer". It is not.

 

[PuppyJonathan]

Ok I'm too lazy to read through all this so I'm going to ask for a catch-up: When is this starting and is it going to be an existing section or that open patch of land across Trinidad South? I'm asking because my family just booked (FINALLY!!!!) and I just want to know to get prepared for construction

 

[Roxyfire]

Ok I'm too lazy to read through all this so I'm going to ask for a catch-up: When is this starting and is it going to be an existing section or that open patch of land across Trinidad South? I'm asking because my family just booked (FINALLY!!!!) and I just want to know to get prepared for construction

This article is really the only concrete information http://www.wdwmagic.com/resorts/dis...pansion-at-disneys-caribbean-beach-resort.htm
Everything else is pretty much just guessing. I think I read on an earlier page that they've already got the construction trailers out there. You could probably check the CBR thread on the resorts board to see if there's any other details as this progresses.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Ok I'm too lazy to read through all this so I'm going to ask for a catch-up: When is this starting and is it going to be an existing section or that open patch of land across Trinidad South? I'm asking because my family just booked (FINALLY!!!!) and I just want to know to get prepared for construction

Nobody has the foggiest clue

 

[Saratoga Springs Tom]

Pure speculation as to what is going to be. It's best to just wait and see. Ultimately Disney will do what is in their best interest to make a profit.

 

[beer dave]

I can see your point but nothing from the current disney management gives me any confidence they'll go that far.

The moderates are nearly identical to the values...they just have better theming and minor tweaks to services.

I can't see them do that much to disrupt their comfort levels.

...unless...what if the goal is to eliminate the value category all together?

Ahhhh........ the most interesting and probably correct theory I have seen on this thread yet.....

 

[beer dave]

So CBR will be the flagship resort of the new modreate DVC-- followed by the tower at AOA, POP, and the new All Star mini high rise inside the coke cup.

 

[skier_pete]

Easy, easy. No one is saying there isn't a difference in the quality of resorts. I'm saying, don't by into the hype of what a deluxe, moderate, or value should be. OKW and SSR have more in common with POR / POFQ and than they do GF or Poly and their price or points show it. If you want to see what a moderate DVC is or would look like, it is SSR and OKW not CBR tower. If you read the info about what makes a deluxe resort, the biggest difference between the 2 are the room entrances (interior hallway entrance or exterior entrance). The Disney "rules" for a deluxe also say they are supposed to have easy park access; OKW and SSR do not have it.

Well, it's more than that. Disney Deluxes mostly have direct park access - but not always. AKL/AKV does not, though it's a very short bus ride to a park. Typically they have better amenities. Typically they have larger rooms than values/moderates, which OKW and SSR both have. There's definitely a hierarchy to the deluxes, though. And it's mostly around access. This applies to the villas as well.

Tier 1: VGF/Poly/BLT - Monorail access to MK / Epcot (2 parks)
Tier 2: BWV/BC/YC - Boat/walking access to Epcot & DHS (2 parks)
Tier 3: WLV/AKV - Close access to MK / AK (1 park)
Tier 4: SSR/OKW - Close access to DS (0 parks)

so the boat to Disney Springs doesn't count then?

No, they don't. Some folks DO indeed love DTD/DS and like that easy access, but it is not nearly the same as park access. We haven't stayed at OKW, but we DID stay at SSR, and while I would not rank it as low as a moderate, it did have some pieces that definitely put it below the other DVC resorts. Namely, it is SOOOO spread out - this leads to requiring 5 bus stops (not even counting the treehouses). While the anemities are nice, it is a 5-15 minute walk or a bus ride to get to most of them unless you are staying in certain buildings close to the center.

CBR could well be planned to be something similar to SSR, a deluxe resort without park access...but the problem is the current price point. SSR sold at $95 per point originally, and I think got up to around $115 per point before it sold out. Current points are $170+ only 10 years after SSR sold out, and will likely be $180-190 by the time CBR (or whatever it's called starts selling.) Even at lower point totals, how many people with that kind of money are going to be buying a place at CBR with no park access. I just don't know....every way I slice this it has logic issues.

 

[Madonna3]

I just don't know....every way I slice this it has logic issues.

And that is the true issue at hand.