Is this legal for DVC to do?

[Dean]

This is where I do disagree. I don't see the ability to charge to the KTTW as part of the reservation, but as a seperate side agreement b/n Disney and the occupant. So if it is part of the reservation, then shouldn't the Member be able to request that the ability to charge to the KTTW should not be extended?

Also, one could make the argument that being able to charge to the KTTW is a member "privilege or benefit", then according the the POS "Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members." If that's the case, then the member would be responsible for notifying MS that it is a rental. This may not apply in the OP's case, since benefits and privileges may be extended in cases where the "Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees".

One can make any argument you want. But since DVC has already emphatically stated their interpretation, it would take a major battle to change it, likely involving lawyers. I don't disagree that there is a difference between room related charges and other pass through charges and it might be possible to get DVC to back off, but I doubt it.

Well, I read most of the contract the last few days, which is why I sent a letter to DVC asking for clarification on this issue, and their official policy. One difference to me between inherent charges, and those with KTTW charging is that we're responsible for the rules on property. Property is not defined in the contract as WDW, but the timeshares themselves. If someone staying on my points were found with a gun in the room at the BW, then they could maybe do something to my membership. If that same person was found with a gun at Epcot, that is not my business. If they tried to touch my membership, I would fight it.

Also they go out of their way in this contract to establish that DVCMC and TWDC are separate and distinct entities. Who actually runs the KTTW program, and who is extending this credit upon check-in? If it is TWDC and not DVCMC why do they have any legal right to in any way affect our contracts?

Again, this doesn't just involve renting for money. My parents have three rooms reserved for family members this fall. Now until this is figured out for sure, they'll have to treat them like 2 year olds on the last day, and walk them down to the lobby to make sure everyone has settled up. Just a certain sleezy feel to ending a nice family trip. If DVC would allow and guarantee a no room charging reservation, this wouldn't be a factor.

However, all they can do is interpret the legal paperwork and they could change their interpretation later if they so chose. Asking for clarification might give you a better understanding of where they're coming from. But it would not offer you any additional protection. Put another way, it would not be binding on them if they changed their interpretation later and it affected you negatively.

The only issue is how can one protect themselves in this situation, we need to ask DVC that question. My guess is you can't totally.

 

[ralphd]

I wonder what dispute procedures are in place. What if some charges that weren't actually from a member or guest appeared on the bill? Would they still hold you (DVC owner) responsible?

I had a bad charge on my Visa from WL last year. When I called the lodge they were extremely helpful and courteous. As it turned out when the CM tracked down the charge, the Lodge had already caught the mistake and had credited the Visa card. I have never had any other problems with the resort/DVC record keeping.

 

[ralphd]

The only issue is how can one protect themselves in this situation, we need to ask DVC that question. My guess is you can't totally.

I think the same problem exists at any timeshare resort and probably to a somewhat different extent at any hotel.

 

[Dean]

I think the same problem exists at any timeshare resort and probably to a somewhat different extent at any hotel.

True, but with most timeshares, it's limited to at max a few pizza's, phone and activity charges. With DVC, the sky is the limit. With hotel's, it's definitely not the same as there is not a fall back member to hit up.

 

[Beach_Bound9]

Pam, that is profound enough to be repeated! It also should be the final word for this thread.

Hardly the final word.

I don't rent points, so the anti renting rhetoric doesn't apply to my following statements. If my family member gave thier credit card info when they were using a room I provided them on points, I would expect that credit card that my family member gave to be properly charged. Anything else is a screw up on Disney's part. I also feel that should they refuse to pay for damages they caused to the room using the credit card info they provided, that I would be responsible.

If the OP's story is correct, DVC is in error in it's handling of this case.

I do not dispute that those renting points are ultimately responsible for those using the rooms, but with proper credit card information provided at check in, appropriate charges should be made to that card to cover the expenses on departure.

 

[Dean]

Hardly the final word.

I don't rent points, so the anti renting rhetoric doesn't apply to my following statements. If my family member gave thier credit card info when they were using a room I provided them on points, I would expect that credit card that my family member gave to be properly charged. Anything else is a screw up on Disney's part. I also feel that should they refuse to pay for damages they caused to the room using the credit card info they provided, that I would be responsible.

If the OP's story is correct, DVC is in error in it's handling of this case.

I do not dispute that those renting points are ultimately responsible for those using the rooms, but with proper credit card information provided at check in, appropriate charges should be made to that card to cover the expenses on departure.

DVC is not in error. The resort was in error for not charging the CC correctly and I'm confident everyone on this thread agrees. But after that happened, DVC did the proper thing by attaching it to the members account. Mistakes happen but they do not relieve the guest, or in this case the member, from ultimate responsibility. Had the resort not made the mistake it would never have been an issue, but given it did happen, the resort and DVC had no choice. Sure they could have made an effort toward the guest, it's possible they actually did but unsuccessfully.

Lets take it a step further. What if DVC kept a card on file for us to use. If they did, a guest or renter would eventually have their charges put on that card by mistake.

 

[PamOKW]

Dean, Doctor P and I aren't making our comments as either pro or anti renting. The original question was whether it was permitted for DVC to prohibit a member from making a new reservation if there was an outstanding issue from a previous trip. The answer is yes.

I don't understand the specifics of what happened in this case -- who was at fault, who wasn't notified, etc. etc. The bottom-line to keep in mind whenever you are dealing with DVC is that they are not going to deal with anyone except the member and that it is the member who is ultimately responsible for use of the membership. They try to screen calls -- asking for SS#, address, etc. to try and be sure they are only taking reservation information from the member or someone they have previously agreed to speak with as an associate. They send confirmations only to the member. DVC does not function as our rental agent. If we give our points over to them in a trade, then they take responsibility for non-members who are using the villas. If we maintain control, we maintain responsibility. We know going in that our "guests" will be offered the ability to charge to the room.

I also think that we should never expect the "agreements" we draw up with our renters to actually have much legal standing. They are a "gentleman's agreement" and lay out an understanding for both parties. But, I think actually trying to enforce anything would be difficult, problematic across state lines, and in the end more expensive than any loss.

 

[SoCalKDG]

Does transfering your points to another member bypass this liability?

 

[childsplay]

Does transfering your points to another member bypass this liability?

I'm not absolutley sure, but I would think it would almost have to become the responsibility of the "new owner".
If I transfer 20 points to complete a 400 point reservation am I 5% responsible for what happens? What if I transfer 20 points to give them the 400 they need to book 5 studios...which of the 5 am I into? It just gets too hard to track IMO.

 

[RobDoc]

Does transfering your points to another member bypass this liability?

Absolutely - once transferred, they are no longer your points and are fully controlled by the other member. You cannot make a reservation using those points and can have no liability for any use of the transferred points.

 

[Deep-Thots]

Absolutely - once transferred, they are no longer your points and are fully controlled by the other member. You cannot make a reservation using those points and can have no liability for any use of the transferred points.

Kewl.

 

[DennisV]

It is in our by-laws that as owners we are ultimately responsible for anyone who uses our points.If someone you let use your points causes alot of damage to a room you as the owner are liable. I also believe in our by-laws that we are NOT suppose to rent our points or be paid for the use of our points. It is too bad that you are in this pickle
but you should not be surprised because everyone knew a $1500 charge would catch up to somebody. Good Luck to you.

 

[Deep-Thots]

It is in our by-laws that as owners we are ultimately responsible for anyone who uses our points.If someone you let use your points causes alot of damage to a room you as the owner are liable. I also believe in our by-laws that we are NOT suppose to rent our points or be paid for the use of our points. It is too bad that you are in this pickle
but you should not be surprised because everyone knew a $1500 charge would catch up to somebody. Good Luck to you.

Gosh.

Did you even bother to fully read diesel's complete post?

I sense, from your derogatory tone, that you did not. He was in no way trying to escape the charge. Neither was he renting his points or being paid for the use of his points (he was giving them to a family member).

Please go back and re-read the original post. Then you might want to offer an apology to diesel.

Sheesh.

 

[Tigger1]

I agree that this should be between Disney and the one who they allowed to use the room. If it was a cash reservation would it then be DVD fault or would BW be on thier own to recove the $$$. If a member is allowed to share there points with family ( I plan to do this when my children have there own familys) then I think they should be allowed to say no charging. If Disney wants to allow charging then Disney should be the one to recover the charges.

Does Disney contact cash customers when this happens? I imagine they do.

I think Diesel should also get an explanation of why the original card was never billed too.

I am glad to hear theat renters are responsible for damages. I always wondered who would flip the bill if anything happened.

Maybe the one good thing of this situation would be that renters will be more careful who the rent to.

Tigger

 

[Chuck S]

I agree that this should be between Disney and the one who they allowed to use the room.

Since the people using the room are not cash renters Disney didn't have anything to do with "allowing them" to use the room, the room was used with the permission of the DVC owner who made the ressie.

Unless you think Disney should have to pre-approve every person/family member that the owners allow to use their points...imagine what that type of process would cost us in employee time.

 

[idratherbeinwdw]

Since the people using the room are not cash renters Disney didn't have anything to do with "allowing them" to use the room, the room was used with the permission of the DVC owner who made the ressie.

Unless you think Disney should have to pre-approve every person/family member that the owners allow to use their points...imagine what that type of process would cost us in employee time.

But it was only the room that the DVC owner "allowed" someone else to use. The CREDIT CARD was taken and approved by a CM at Disney World. I can certainly understand the owner being accountable for room damage, but once someone at WDW messes up by recording a Credit Card incorrectly, it is ridiculous imo for the owner to be considered responsible for Disney's mistake.

I hear what a lot of you are saying--"that's what the rules are", and I am not arguing that point. But I think that rule is not right. Even though I don't rent points and probably never will I think it stinks that Disney can mess up--and hold YOU accountable for THEIR mistake. Not losing any sleep over this personally, but I still think it's poor customer service.

 

[tamu91]

Diesel, has this been resolved yet? Is your BIL now in hiding C'mon, inquiring minds want to know

 

[cruise-o-matic]

But it was only the room that the DVC owner "allowed" someone else to use. The CREDIT CARD was taken and approved by a CM at Disney World. I can certainly understand the owner being accountable for room damage, but once someone at WDW messes up by recording a Credit Card incorrectly, it is ridiculous imo for the owner to be considered responsible for Disney's mistake.

I hear what a lot of you are saying--"that's what the rules are", and I am not arguing that point. But I think that rule is not right. Even though I don't rent points and probably never will I think it stinks that Disney can mess up--and hold YOU accountable for THEIR mistake. Not losing any sleep over this personally, but I still think it's poor customer service.

Big DITTO

 

[crisi]

It may be poor customer service, but its good business. This sort of customer service gaffe is unlikely to cost them much business. Few people are going to sell their contracts over this - and if anyone does, there is another customer waiting to buy it. Perhaps a few people will rent less or be more careful, but they aren't going to let points go to waste. But Disney has reduced the chance to have bad debt expense that needs to be written off as uncollectible - something all companies struggle to keep low.

Its hard to realize, but good customer service is not always good business. And good business sometimes means bad customer service.

 

[idratherbeinwdw]

Its hard to realize, but good customer service is not always good business. And good business sometimes means bad customer service.

I am sure you are right. But WDW is supposed to be THE place for good customer service. So when I read things like this thread it disappoints me. It's one thing for WDW to "eat" the loss if it was a guest's else's fault. But if it's due to an employee making a mistake it's not right to pass that mistake on to the consumer IMO.

I just can't imagine Walt agreeing with this policy if he was alive, but of course since he isn't no one knows for sure.