Is it ok for spouse to go to lunch with co-worker of opposite sex?(Inspired by RIDISN

[kimblebee]

She is pretty focused on it though.

Considering she replied to the thread before me LOL

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Well, sexism is definitely alive and well.

Really?

Someone doing something on their own time, on their own dime? They have to make sure they spend equal amounts of time and money on both sexes? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Keep in mind I am not talking about training required for work. This is outside of any requirements for work. All on your own time. No expense report is submitted.

How in the world is that sexist?

 

[Magpie]

I've got no doubt that many women (past and present) have very real challenges in relation to the way they are viewed and treated by men in the workplace. But really, other than your own personal example, which was apparently a sudden, unexpected occurrence, don't those examples sound more like systemic discrimination, misogyny or even just plain old cronyism? (Especially the example by @rigs32 - totally sounds like the "old boy's club".) I guess we'll never know, but I'd love to know how many of the men involved shared a value with their wives of not spending social time with members of the opposite sex.

Systemic problems arise when your personal moral and/or values become widespread in society and impact people negatively.

Systemic discrimination, misogyny, cronyism and old boys clubs all have their roots in common value systems, specifically ones that say men and women should inhabit different spheres of society, and that sexual attraction between them is inevitable, dangerous, and impossible to protect yourself against except by avoiding contact (aka "temptation") with the opposite sex.

 

[Magpie]

This exactly, I think most couples can agree not to be unfaithful but not everyone has a chat about what they consider to be infidelity: sure we all know hitting home base is a universal agreement, but is holding hands? Flirty texts? Emotional sharing? A lap dance? Dirty dancing? Online relationships?
It's better to clearly set boundaries than assume you are both on the same page.

I remember doing exactly this with my husband, back when we first started going steady (as it were).

I told him I was fine with him looking and admiring, but if he started chasing women down the street and asking for their phone number, that'd be the end of it for me. Adorably, he always tries to point out the handsome men to me, just to be fair.

And, knowing several friends in open and poly arrangements, I also made a point of telling him I don't share. This girl's monogamous, thank you.

Happily, he was agreeable to both conditions.

Good communication is SO important!

 

[CarolAnn856]

Really?

Someone doing something on their own time, on their own dime? They have to make sure they spend equal amounts of time and money on both sexes? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Keep in mind I am not talking about training required for work. This is outside of any requirements for work. All on your own time. No expense report is submitted.

How in the world is that sexist?

Refusing to support or mentor someone because of their gender is ridiculous and, yes, sexist.

 

[bdcp]

This exactly, I think most couples can agree not to be unfaithful but not everyone has a chat about what they consider to be infidelity: sure we all know hitting home base is a universal agreement, but is holding hands? Flirty texts? Emotional sharing? A lap dance? Dirty dancing? Online relationships?
It's better to clearly set boundaries than assume you are both on the same page.

I think most people (and everyone I know) would say all of those cross the line into inifidelity. You shouldn't have to set boundaries like those as those are things you do not do with others when you are married or in a committed relationship. I would hope by the time you are that involved with someone you would know where you each stand. We never had to have this conversation. Apparently though, my neighbor did, because her DH thought it was perfectly fine, while she didn't. So, they're getting divorced and he doesn't want to because he wants it all.

 

[mummabear]

Systemic problems arise when your personal moral and/or values become widespread in society and impact people negatively.

Systemic discrimination, misogyny, cronyism and old boys clubs all have their roots in common value systems, specifically ones that say men and women should inhabit different spheres of society, and that sexual attraction between them is inevitable, dangerous, and impossible to protect yourself against except by avoiding contact (aka "temptation") with the opposite sex.

Could it be that the person giving you a lift home released that they were potinetally putting themselves in a situation where accusations could be made and decided to avoid it although there? (Not saying this is your fault but sadly a reality in this day and age)

I think most people (and everyone I know) would say all of those cross the line into inifidelity. You shouldn't have to set boundaries like those as those are things you do not do with others when you are married or in a committed relationship. I would hope by the time you are that involved with someone you would know where you each stand.

I believe they are all infidetly, as does my DH, and I know this because we talked about it.
But there are plenty of people who have had emotional affairs who think they aren't doing anything wrong because there is nothing physical, same goes with online contact.
You have said that those are not things you do while in a committed relationship (and I agree) but not everyone is on the same page about what is and isn't ok while in a committed relationship.
Some women feel strongly that going to a strip club is cheating, others are ok with it.

 

[Magpie]

So noI wouldn't have a problem, generally. Like another poster said my DH travels a lot for work, can be 4 months a year totalled, he is in a male dominated industry but sometimes he will be grabbing lunch or dinner with workmates or customers, sometimes in groups, sometimes one on one, he has given me no reason not to trust him and it would not do my mental Heath well to be worried for no reason every time he is away (and he works from home when he is not away).

However he told me about one female coworker who came into him one trip, invited him back to her room and said she didn't care he was married, he called me from his room to tell me, needless to say I wouldn't be happy if he was having one on one lunches with her-again not because I don't trust him but because her behaviour crossed the line.

When I was working (I'm a SAHM) I became good friends with a male colleuge, we are still friends more than 10 years later, DH also sometimes joined us, I also still caught (and now as well) with an old friend from school for lunch sometimes, DH also sometimes joined us.

My motto is that if you have to sneak, hide or lie about something hen what you are doing isn't right whether it's drinking, gambling, eating or your relationship with someone outside of your spouse, so if you would be happy for your spouse to join you, be shown a tape of how you acted etc then you are probably fine, if you would be okay if they had that same sort of relationship with someone, then you are probably fine, but if you are lying about who you went to lunch with, or lying that there was other people there etc then you are crossing a line somewhere

My husband has been propositioned a few times, too. And yes, he also tells me all about it!

I agree completely with your last paragraph! If you have to sneak, hide or lie about something, then what you're doing isn't right.

 

[Magpie]

Could it be that the person giving you a lift home released that they were potinetally putting themselves in a situation where accusations could be made and decided to avoid it although there? (Not saying this is your fault but sadly a reality in this day and age)

Could very well be, and this is exactly the kind of thing we need to be able to move past, as a society.

My husband is a senior executive. At one point many years ago the rumour mill, to his great amusement, had him cheating on me with five different women, simultaneously, all because of who he went out to lunch with. Did this cause him to change his behaviour? Not at all. If he'd take a male colleague out, then he'd take a female one out, too.

He is deeply committed to equity in the workplace (he's frequently been in charge of hiring, mentorships, etc). The only way to create real lasting positive change, is to become the change you want to see.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Could very well be, and this is exactly the kind of thing we need to be able to move past, as a society.

My husband is a senior executive. At one point many years ago the rumour mill, to his great amusement, had him cheating on me with five different women, simultaneously, all because of who he went out to lunch with. Did this cause him to change his behaviour? Not at all. If he'd take a male colleague out, then he'd take a female one out, too.

He is deeply committed to equity in the workplace (he's frequently been in charge of hiring, mentorships, etc). The only way to create real lasting positive change, is to become the change you want to see.

I'm not sure that is what the poster was talking about.

By being alone with a woman, a man opens himself up to accusations from the woman. For example, "he put his hand on my thigh. And propositioned me."

If someone has already been burnt by those type of accusations, they may simply be protecting themselves.

But of course that is sexist, and they need to suck it up. Because there is no reason whatsoever that justifies not wanting to spend private time with the opposite sex.

Sorry, but this conversation, in my opinion has gone off the rails. So, bye all. On to more Disney planning.

 

[Magpie]

I'm not sure that is what the poster was talking about.

By being alone with a woman, a man opens himself up to accusations from the woman. For example, "he put his hand on my thigh. And propositioned me."

If someone has already been burnt by those type of accusations, they may simply be protecting themselves.

But of course that is sexist, and they need to suck it up. Because there is no reason whatsoever that justifies not wanting to spend private time with the opposite sex.

Sorry, but this conversation, in my opinion has gone off the rails.

Yes, indeed! What an interesting digression you're proposing!

I thought we were talking about lunch in a public place. Most don't consider this "private time". And in the case of the lieutenant, I was rarely ever the only one in his car and had given him no reason to fear false accusations. I'm not even the flirtatious type (most of the men I worked with put me in the "little sister" category).

In any case, generally women in the workplace are not predators looking to slap men with unfounded accusations of sexual assault. Just as most men that you'll meet in the workplace are not Roger Ailes. There is generally no need for either men or women to avoid lunch dates out of a fear of being either sexually assaulted or falsely accused of sexual assault.

But you're quite right... if you've been psychologically injured in the past, either by being raped or accused of rape, of course you may be afraid of being near the opposite sex (unless of course the person who hurt you was of the same sex as you, in which case you may fear your own sex instead). You might also fear being alone with people of the same race or religion as your molester. While this is a reason to be compassionate toward this individual, it's not something an employer should expect upon hiring them. "I can't spend any time alone with - insert specific race/gender/other descriptor - because a person like that hurt me once." The employer might be able to accommodate them, or they might decide not to hire them. Ideally, we'd hope this individual would recover, some day, and be able to socialize normally again.

 

[TCRAIG]

Just can't quit thinking about this issue...

My DH is a District Manager with his HUGE company. Over half of the group of employees under him are female (and most have been with the company longer and make more $) and his direct boss is also female. He probably eats lunch with co-workers three out of five days a week - often with one or two females. Many times this is necessity, not social...I mean, they're on the road alot (in town and out) and they have to eat! He even travels with them and stays in the same hotel. This is HIS JOB...male or female isn't exactly a choice - thank goodness IMO!!

I have never even questioned this practice and even after reading recent posts, I still don't. I've been trying to find a problem with it, but I can't!! Once, he even called from his hotel to let me know where he was staying and he said, "We're in room..." He was with a female that trip!! I did actually call both of them IN THEIR SEPARATE ROOMS to tell them what he said in a JOKING WAY...still wasn't worried. DH still has to live that one down at work though, cause everyone heard about it!

Anyway, my DH works very, very hard for us. I trust him completely. I will say that I personally know his direct co-workers and we do family get-togethers every so often with kids and all. Very comfortable situation! Just wondering what others think!

By the way, DH doesn't know my DIS name nor would he even think to care to. He could ask and I'd tell of course, but HE JUST DOESN"T CARE!!

Before I worked from home full time - I traveled up to 40wks a year with a male crew for close to 20 years - honestly - it never entered my mind - nor my husbands - that there is/was anything inappropriate about it...it's was work nothing more

 

[mummabear]

I'm not sure that is what the poster was talking about.

By being alone with a woman, a man opens himself up to accusations from the woman. For example, "he put his hand on my thigh. And propositioned me."

If someone has already been burnt by those type of accusations, they may simply be protecting themselves.

But of course that is sexist, and they need to suck it up. Because there is no reason whatsoever that justifies not wanting to spend private time with the opposite sex.

Sorry, but this conversation, in my opinion has gone off the rails. So, bye all. On to more Disney planning.

No actually they don't.
If a man decides he doesnt want to drive a workmate home, he really doesnt have to. Would you still say suck it up to a woman who felt uncomfortable driving a male colleague home?
And as far as why this particular workmate wouldnt drive his female workmate home any longer but was willing to do so for a male collauge, who knows? Was his girlfriend jealous and banned him? Did someone pull him aside and warn him of the risk of accusation by being alone with a subordinate? Was it a personal issue with the female (no offense to the poster)? Did she never offer to pay for gas? Did she talk the whole time and drive him nuts or not talk at all and make him feel like a free taxi? There are loads of reasons for him to do so that arent sexist.

I don't think that there are bunch of men sexually harassing women whenever they get the chance to be alone, nor do I think there is a bunch of a women waiting to get alone so they can make false accusations. However when my Dad went through teachers college it was drilled into the male teachers to never be alone with the kids to protect themselves from any accusations.
Male doctors arent taking advantage of patients every chance they get but that hasnt stopped them being requiring a female nurse to be present while physically examining female patients.

 

[Westcoastwild]

No actually they don't.
If a man decides he doesnt want to drive a workmate home, he really doesnt have to. Would you still say suck it up to a woman who felt uncomfortable driving a male colleague home?
And as far as why this particular workmate wouldnt drive his female workmate home any longer but was willing to do so for a male collauge, who knows? Was his girlfriend jealous and banned him? Did someone pull him aside and warn him of the risk of accusation by being alone with a subordinate? Was it a personal issue with the female (no offense to the poster)? Did she never offer to pay for gas? Did she talk the whole time and drive him nuts or not talk at all and make him feel like a free taxi? There are loads of reasons for him to do so that arent sexist.

I don't think that there are bunch of men sexually harassing women whenever they get the chance to be alone, nor do I think there is a bunch of a women waiting to get alone so they can make false accusations. However when my Dad went through teachers college it was drilled into the male teachers to never be alone with the kids to protect themselves from any accusations.
Male doctors arent taking advantage of patients every chance they get but that hasnt stopped them being requiring a female nurse to be present while physically examining female patients.

While there are a lot of reasons he COULD have stopped carpooling with the PP, if he's still carpooling with men in the office, it's probably down to the fact she's female- jealous gf or not, that's bs. Doesn't sound like he had a a good reason to give her for the change. If it had been about gas money, he would have said that.

I don't know. There are definitely coworkers I would not carpool with but that's usually something you know before several trips. If someone was uncomfortable carpooling with a member of the opposite sex, they just don't. This guy was apparently ok with it several times and then he quit without a valid reason. I would wonder too. I mean, no one has to give a reason, but if you do stuff like that, it affects people's perception of you.

I also get what you're saying about teachers and doctors, but I think those are somewhat separate from other fields. A coworker accusing another coworker of harassment is not the same thing as a student accusing a teacher or a patient accusing a doctor. The second is about abuse of power. A more apt comparison would be if the PP had been the guy's subordinate.

It goes back to the whole lunch thing. Eating lunch with a boss everyday would be perceived differently than if someone just ate lunch everyday with a coworker. Doesn't really matter if it's same or opposite sex. But I also agree with the poster who said they thought we were talking about lunch in a public place. I mean, if someone accuses a coworker of inappropriate behavior at Starbucks, that can be verified and it also could not have gone too far.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Systemic discrimination, misogyny, cronyism and old boys clubs all have their roots in common value systems, specifically ones that say men and women should inhabit different spheres of society, and that sexual attraction between them is inevitable, dangerous, and impossible to protect yourself against except by avoiding contact (aka "temptation") with the opposite sex.

By being alone with a woman, a man opens himself up to accusations from the woman. For example, "he put his hand on my thigh. And propositioned me."

I definitely think we need to work on both of these things - that a woman would be discriminated against, but also that simply accusing a man of something (even if it is later found to be false) can do lasting damage. We need to reduce the "power" factor all around.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Really?

Someone doing something on their own time, on their own dime? They have to make sure they spend equal amounts of time and money on both sexes? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Keep in mind I am not talking about training required for work. This is outside of any requirements for work. All on your own time. No expense report is submitted.

How in the world is that sexist?

For a salaried employee, mentoring another employee form your company about their job? Is there ever eally "your own time" if what you are doing is with coworkers and meant to help them in the bussiness and you are salary?
Probably not.

And even if you can get away with it, the thought that "hey, it's totally fine to make sure men get more help and more advancementoppurtunities so long as it is after workign hours" is pretty awful IMO and much of what is behind systematic discrimination in the workplace.

Honestly, this thread just makes me so sad. I had no idea how rampant fully conscious and self aware sexism was even today. I had though that except for religious extremists it was primarily an unconscious thing in most people. Yet, here are posters advocating for it or dismissing it outright as no big deal while fully aware of it. It's depressing.

 

[mummabear]

A more apt comparison would be if the PP had been the guy's subordinate.

I had them impression from her post that he outranked her.

While there are a lot of reasons he COULD have stopped carpooling with the PP, if he's still carpooling with men in the office, it's probably down to the fact she's female

I don't think we have enough detail, we know he has declined giving lifts to a woman while still offering lifts to at least one man. That's a long way from being clear that the reason for it is that she is female.
That would be like saying the person a is blonde and person b is brunette and since he declines giving person a a lift then it must be because they are blonde (and not any other reasons to do with personality or actions of person a)

 

[Magpie]

No actually they don't.
If a man decides he doesnt want to drive a workmate home, he really doesnt have to. Would you still say suck it up to a woman who felt uncomfortable driving a male colleague home?
And as far as why this particular workmate wouldnt drive his female workmate home any longer but was willing to do so for a male collauge, who knows? Was his girlfriend jealous and banned him? Did someone pull him aside and warn him of the risk of accusation by being alone with a subordinate? Was it a personal issue with the female (no offense to the poster)? Did she never offer to pay for gas? Did she talk the whole time and drive him nuts or not talk at all and make him feel like a free taxi? There are loads of reasons for him to do so that arent sexist.

I don't think that there are bunch of men sexually harassing women whenever they get the chance to be alone, nor do I think there is a bunch of a women waiting to get alone so they can make false accusations. However when my Dad went through teachers college it was drilled into the male teachers to never be alone with the kids to protect themselves from any accusations.
Male doctors arent taking advantage of patients every chance they get but that hasnt stopped them being requiring a female nurse to be present while physically examining female patients.

I wouldn't say suck it up, but I would be surprised if a woman gave a man a lift several times and then suddenly announced she felt uncomfortable doing this. I would actually wonder if he'd done something inappropriate to her and I might be suspicious of him, moving forward!

Since I know I didn't do anything untoward to the gentleman, though, we can rule that one out.

Possibly the gas... I can't remember if I offered to chip in or not. I was very young, so it's entirely conceivable I didn't think of it. But I'd hope he'd have had the guts to say something to me. And yes... possibly I talked too much (that is something I do), but then again, shouldn't he tell me, instead of claiming it's because I'm a "girl"? I mean, imagine if he'd decided he didn't want to give a black colleague a lift any more because the guy talked too much and didn't chip in for gas, but instead of saying either of these, he says, "It's because you're black and I'm white and it's inappropriate!"

In any case, I got the distinct impression someone had talked to him. I don't know if it was a girlfriend or a superior, but I was disappointed with him, either way. I don't think he's a monster, though. He was also very young, and just handled things badly.

Male teachers are in exactly the same position as women trying to make inroads into non-traditional fields. They're isolated, viewed with suspicion and sometimes even antipathy, and prevented from performing their duties with the same freedom their female colleagues enjoy. They shouldn't have to take special precautions around the kids just because they're male, any more than a female trucker should have to face sexual harassment just because they're female.

It's wrong, no matter what gender we're talking about! And it's something that needs to change. If the prohibition against being alone with students can't currently be lifted for male teachers, then it needs to be applied to female teachers as well. No exceptions.

When I was helping with my children's cub scout troop, no one was allowed to be alone with the kids, male or female, parent or leader. Everyone had to follow the same rules.

As for the doctor... I don't think this is universally applied. Every time a doctor has given me a physical (ie, looked at me lady bits), the two of us have been the only people in the room. My regular doctor is male. I've never requested a nurse be present, though if I'm at the clinic (and seeing a doctor I don't know) they always tell me I can, if I want. I'm usually all, "No, no, let's just get this over with!"

 

[Magpie]

I had them impression from her post that he outranked her.

I don't think we have enough detail, we know he has declined giving lifts to a woman while still offering lifts to at least one man. That's a long way from being clear that the reason for it is that she is female.
That would be like saying the person a is blonde and person b is brunette and since he declines giving person a a lift then it must be because they are blonde (and not any other reasons to do with personality or actions of person a)

Except if he says, "You're a blonde and it's inappropriate," and then proceeded to give lifts to all the brunettes, then we'd be pretty clear the reason is because the person is blonde.

For the record, as I wrote in the original post, he did say, "You're a girl and it's inappropriate." It was very, very clear to me that he felt he shouldn't give girls (me being the only one) lifts any more.

(He did indeed outrank me, but if that was the only issue, then he should have stopped giving lifts to the male privates as well.)

 

[Westcoastwild]

For a salaried employee, mentoring another employee form your company about their job? Is there ever eally "your own time" if what you are doing is with coworkers and meant to help them in the bussiness and you are salary?
Probably not.

And even if you can get away with it, the thought that "hey, it's totally fine to make sure men get more help and more advancementoppurtunities so long as it is after workign hours" is pretty awful IMO and much of what is behind systematic discrimination in the workplace.

Honestly, this thread just makes me so sad. I had no idea how rampant fully conscious and self aware sexism was even today. I had though that except for religious extremists it was primarily an unconscious thing in most people. Yet, here are posters advocating for it or dismissing it outright as no big deal while fully aware of it. It's depressing.

I agree with you on the depressing thing.

But I'm not sure about the mentoring. Official mentoring- sure, that's wrong to deny someone.

But the thing is, unofficial mentoring- socializing after hours or whatever- that is off the clock. Getting together, doing stuff like golfing or fishing. I've known female coworkers who complain they feel left out of the "in crowd" at work. But it's like school- you might get to be part of an excellent study group or an invite to a party of movers and shakers because you were taken under wing by someone with connections and because they like you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: sometimes good old boys club is active discrimination, but at most jobs I've had, it's not. It's just that people won't invite you golfing or fishing if you clearly hate golfing and fishing. If you don't get invited, you don't make those connections.