Is it ok for spouse to go to lunch with co-worker of opposite sex?(Inspired by RIDISN

[NFLDERS]

Considering she replied to the thread before me LOL

 

[Magpie]

Of course this is just my opinion. I think regardless whether it is for work or whatever reason do not think it is a good idea. The attraction between a male and female is extremely dangerous and before you say well I love my spouse too much to do that. Talk to others that have said the same thing but fell into the pit of adultery. I am a Christian man and very well versed in scripture and in real life situations. I think you might be surprised of what you think you have control of, or how a man or women can be enticed to do thru the wearing down of another's aggressive pressing (if that person wants it)
Too many biblical examples for me too play around or put myself in a situation that can get out of hand due to our nature and make up
Read about David and Samson.
Before you say well maybe you don't trust yourself or Love your wife enough. I will say this I love my wife way too much to do it.
No opportunity, No Regret !
God Bless

And this is fine, as long as you are ethical enough never to accept a job offer that would have you either working closely with women, for women, or in a supervisory position over women. You also need to be responsible enough not to favour men over women in your hiring practices or in the workplace (for ex, by spending time one-on-one in strategy meetings with men, but not women or mentoring men, but not women). And if you ever find yourself in the position where your faith is preventing you from behaving equitably toward both men and women, you should immediately resign.

It's fine to put all sorts of rules on yourself, but you should never allow your personal taboos to get in someone else's way, whether you are a "Christian man" or Conservative Muslim or Orthodox Jewish or belong to any other faith which teaches that men and women should not interact.

This is exactly why I am always in favour of a clear separation between church and state.

By the way, at 45, married since my early 20s, and Unitarian, I am not likely to find myself "surprised" any more by my libido. I know quite well what I, and my husband have control over (namely, our choices and our actions - taking personal responsibility is VERY important to us both). Your rules need to be for you alone, and should never be imposed on others who do not share your faith.

 

[wilkeliza]

And this is fine, as long as you are ethical enough never to accept a job offer that would have you either working closely with women, for women, or in a supervisory position over women. You also need to be responsible enough not to favour men over women in your hiring practices or in the workplace (for ex, by spending time one-on-one in strategy meetings with men, but not women or mentoring men, but not women). And if you ever find yourself in the position where your faith is preventing you from behaving equitably toward both men and women, you should immediately resign.

It's fine to put all sorts of rules on yourself, but you should never allow your personal taboos to get in someone else's way, whether you are a "Christian man" or Conservative Muslim or Orthodox Jewish or belong to any other faith which teaches that men and women should not interact.

This is exactly why I am always in favour of a clear separation between church and state.

By the way, at 45, married since my early 20s, and Unitarian, I am not likely to find myself "surprised" any more by my libido. I know quite well what I, and my husband have control over (namely, our choices and our actions - taking personal responsibility is VERY important to us both). Your rules need to be for you alone, and should never be imposed on others who do not share your faith.

This highlights my whole deal with it. The whole idea that men and women can't be friends just perpetrates the idea that people can't control themselves and their sexual desires. I know most people don't intend for it but it also adds to rape culture the whole boys will be boys and well she deserved it because look at what she was wearing type of stuff. Calling women who sleep with married men temptress or home wrecker is just as bad because guess what?! HE DECIDED TO DO IT! No one made him unzip his pants (unless he was raped and to me that's not cheating) so I don't believe the whole I couldn't' stop myself she came on to me bs. Any man who feels like a female counterpart is being aggressive in her coming on to him is allowed to lodge sexual harassment complaints just like any female is.

One thing that always infuriated me the most growing up was the lack of personal responsibility I saw and how everyone was so quick to blame the tempter or the way G-d made them instead of just saying look I screwed up and need help getting back on track.

 

[NFLDERS]

Of course this is just my opinion. I think regardless whether it is for work or whatever reason do not think it is a good idea. The attraction between a male and female is extremely dangerous and before you say well I love my spouse too much to do that. Talk to others that have said the same thing but fell into the pit of adultery. I am a Christian man and very well versed in scripture and in real life situations. I think you might be surprised of what you think you have control of, or how a man or women can be enticed to do thru the wearing down of another's aggressive pressing (if that person wants it)
Too many biblical examples for me too play around or put myself in a situation that can get out of hand due to our nature and make up
Read about David and Samson.
Before you say well maybe you don't trust yourself or Love your wife enough. I will say this I love my wife way too much to do it.
No opportunity, No Regret !
God Bless

Self Discipline, and Self Control!?

 

[luvsJack]

This highlights my whole deal with it. The whole idea that men and women can't be friends just perpetrates the idea that people can't control themselves and their sexual desires. I know most people don't intend for it but it also adds to rape culture the whole boys will be boys and well she deserved it because look at what she was wearing type of stuff. Calling women who sleep with married men temptress or home wrecker is just as bad because guess what?! HE DECIDED TO DO IT! No one made him unzip his pants (unless he was raped and to me that's not cheating) so I don't believe the whole I couldn't' stop myself she came on to me bs. Any man who feels like a female counterpart is being aggressive in her coming on to him is allowed to lodge sexual harassment complaints just like any female is.

One thing that always infuriated me the most growing up was the lack of personal responsibility I saw and how everyone was so quick to blame the tempter or the way G-d made them instead of just saying look I screwed up and need help getting back on track.

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

 

[pryncess527]

He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen..

I think one of the difficulties in this conversation, is that I legitimately do not see a fundamental difference between these statements. If it can happen, even over time, that is a lack of control.
Also, many of us have said that we'd treat a predatory situation differently. I'd absolutely expect my husband to choose, of his own free will, to stop having lunch with a woman who made aggressive moves towards him (because he's in control of his own actions and choices and can put a stop to that). That's moving the bar and not what the gist of this conversation has been about.

 

[wilkeliza]

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

If one of them is an aggressor then you can remove yourself form the situation at that point or again tell HR about unwanted sexual advancements. Even over time it is still the choice of both parties involved. Again there are other options besides no females or no men alone ever together.

 

[Magpie]

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

Actually, if one of the two is the aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, this is straight up sexual harassment.

Believe me, there's nothing appealing about being sexually harassed by someone. That kind of behaviour generally does not "wear you down" until you eventually decide, "Yes! I've suddenly realized how attractive you are! You've succeeded in seducing me against my will! Let's embark on a torrid romance!" (Although, if people really think sexual attraction works like that, this could very much explain some of the extremely repellant advances I've endured...)

If a particular person is giving you reason to believe that they may be interested in a relationship with you, then by all means put a responsible amount of distance between yourself and that person.

But, that's still no reason to avoid ALL people of the opposite gender. Or heck, even the same gender, if the person indicating interest in you happens to be gay. Or bi!

Just because someone is female and you're male, that doesn't mean you're inevitably going to end up in each others' pants. You always have a choice! You're not helpless. You're not weak. If you do have an affair (versus being raped), you aren't the unwitting victim of a sexual aggressor.

"I don't know what happened! I thought we were just innocently going out for lunch. I didn't know it was orgy hour at Panera!"

 

[NFLDERS]

Actually, if one of the two is the aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, this is straight up sexual harassment.

Believe me, there's nothing appealing about being sexually harassed by someone. That kind of behaviour generally does not "wear you down" until you eventually decide, "Yes! I've suddenly realized how attractive you are! You've succeeded in seducing me against my will! Let's embark on a torrid romance!" (Although, if people really think sexual attraction works like that, this could very much explain some of the extremely repellant advances I've endured...)

If a particular person is giving you reason to believe that they may be interested in a relationship with you, then by all means put a responsible amount of distance between yourself and that person.

But, that's still no reason to avoid ALL people of the opposite gender. Or heck, even the same gender, if the person indicating interest in you happens to be gay. Or bi!

Just because someone is female and you're male, that doesn't mean you're inevitably going to end up in each others' pants. You always have a choice! You're not helpless. You're not weak. If you do have an affair (versus being raped), you aren't the unwitting victim of a sexual aggressor.

"I don't know what happened! I thought we were just innocently going out for lunch. I didn't know it was orgy hour at Panera!"

^^^THIS!

 

[DisneyOma]

Removing oneself from temptation - it just cracks me up. If you're tempted, it doesn't matter where you are. If you can't keep your pants zipped, that's your fault, no one else's. And if you can't trust your spouse to have a friendship with someone of your gender/sexual preference, even if you both agree to not having lunch with certain people, then there's something wrong in the marriage - where's the trust?

 

[CarolAnn856]

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

But it really comes down to self control. There is a good argument for never trying a cigarette, because there is a biological dependency on the molecular level created that takes away a portion of a person's control. That is not the case in relationships.

 

[morgan98]

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

That may be fine advice for teens to stay away from temptations. I have never considered a professional work interaction, one on one with a member of the opposite sex, that may involve food being like getting drunk at a keg party. Attending the party is a choice. Working with members of the opposite sex and having normal day to day interaction is a requirement of many jobs or is needed to exchange information. It is often even on the company's time and dime.

Again, I am not talking about a particular poster or their particular work situation. I am talking in general terms.

 

[luvsJack]

That may be fine advice for teens to stay away from temptations. I have never considered a professional work interaction, one on one with a member of the opposite sex, that may involve food being like getting drunk at a keg party. Attending the party is a choice. Working with members of the opposite sex and having normal day to day interaction is a requirement of many jobs or is needed to exchange information. It is often even on the company's time and dime.

Again, I am not talking about a particular poster or their particular work situation. I am talking in general terms.

Well, I used the advice for my teens for more than keg parties. It was advice also used by the youth director to kids and advice he used himself until he married.

Work setting AT work with members of the opposite sex is quite different than a quiet lunch. And again, perhaps the pp doesn't work in that type of setting but I would imagine in all this great big earth there are people that work in the very settings that you and others describe that do follow the same "rules" as the pp and others and do just fine as well as the people around them. And they are not holding anyone back or handicapping the other gender. They have figured out solutions. You and others have not because it just hasn't been necessary for you to.

No one is right or wrong here. Everyone has to choose for themselves how to live their life, how to conduct themselves and what is best for their marriage or relationship.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I don't think that's what the pp is saying. He isn't saying that one cannot control themselves. He is saying that over time it can happen. He is saying that if one of the two is an aggressor and wants more than a professional relationship and continually goes after the other, it can happen. And his choice is to not be in a situation where it could happen. Or to be in a situation where the jilted person could say that it happened either.

Its like I always told my teens. If you don't want certain things to happen, do not let yourself get in a situation where it might. (whether we were talking about having sex, drinking, drugs, whatever).

I see the argument with teens. I have a policy of nothing good happens after midnight. It is too easy to make stupid decisions when caught up in the situation.

BUT...c'mon, fallen into the pit of adultery? If people really were so easily tempted by the opposite sex, my workplace would be a lot more interesting. Plenty of people have friends or neighbors or coworkers of the opposite sex that they have never slept with- or even been remotely attracted to. We're adults. We know right from wrong. What stops someone from taking unattended money or keeping a lost cell phone? People who commit adultery or steal or hurt others can justify their decision all they like but they know they did wrong. And often, you know that because they went out of their way to cover up their sin. I've no patience for cheaters. I have never met one who absolutely did not know they were doing something hurtful, and I've never met one with even a passable excuse.

The PP's post reminds me of the post/article I saw once about the woman who was asked to move from her reserved plane seat because her seat mate was a Muslim man who could not sit next to an unrelated woman. Mind boggling that the airline would even take his side. What possible justification could there be? Seriously, what possible hanky panky does anyone really think can happen on a flight or at the local diner or coffee shop? That's what I really don't get about this thread. It would be literally easier to hook up AT work in every job that I've had than it would be to hook up on your lunch break. If you told your boss you couldn't do business trips with a team member of the opposite sex, no one would hire you, if business trips were part of the job. You need a better excuse than gender to refuse to work.

ETA: sexual harassment is a valid excuse that you can report to Hr. But you can't report the possibility of harassment that hasn't happened yet! If my spouse asked me to not work one on one with someone who was being investigated for harassment or rape, I sure wouldn't. But if he asked me to not work with other men because they MIGHT harass me...because other men might be overcome by my feminine charms...nope. Ridiculous. I'd ask what he was on!

 

[luvsJack]

Removing oneself from temptation - it just cracks me up. If you're tempted, it doesn't matter where you are. If you can't keep your pants zipped, that's your fault, no one else's. And if you can't trust your spouse to have a friendship with someone of your gender/sexual preference, even if you both agree to not having lunch with certain people, then there's something wrong in the marriage - where's the trust?

So in your opinion, every affair (and btw, affairs can be much more than "keeping your pants zipped") starts with the full intention of going out and finding someone to cheat with? All cheaters are habitual cheaters? Never at any time the history of affairs have any started innocently with work, or friendship (which no one said anyone couldn't have a friend of the opposite gender)?

I can't answer for others that say they have an "agreement" but it sounds like for most that have said it, its more of a decision than an agreement. As in: I make the decision for me, my spouse makes the decision for himself. And as everyone has said, its not about trust.

 

[luvsJack]

I see the argument with teens. I have a policy of nothing good happens after midnight. It is too easy to make stupid decisions when caught up in the situation.

BUT...c'mon, fallen into the pit of adultery? If people really were so easily tempted by the opposite sex, my workplace would be a lot more interesting. Plenty of people have friends or neighbors or coworkers of the opposite sex that they have never slept with- or even been remotely attracted to. We're adults. We know right from wrong. What stops someone from taking unattended money or keeping a lost cell phone? People who commit adultery or steal or hurt others can justify their decision all they like but they know they did wrong. And often, you know that because they went out of their way to cover up their sin. I've no patience for cheaters. I have never met one who absolutely did not know they were doing something hurtful, and I've never met one with even a passable excuse.

The PP's post reminds me of the post/article I saw once about the woman who was asked to move from her reserved plane seat because her seat mate was a Muslim man who could not sit next to an unrelated woman. Mind boggling that the airline would even take his side. What possible justification could there be? Seriously, what possible hanky panky does anyone really think can happen on a flight or at the local diner or coffee shop? That's what I really don't get about this thread. It would be literally easier to hook up AT work in every job that I've had than it would be to hook up on your lunch break. If you told your boss you couldn't do business trips with a team member of the opposite sex, no one would hire you, if business trips were part of the job. You need a better excuse than gender to refuse to work.

Of course they know they are doing something wrong. No one said they didn't.

I have no patience for them either, but otoh, I do know that not all affairs start with the intention of starting one.

Its just a decision some have made for themselves. You aren't going to get it because you don't want to and that's ok, you don't have to.

 

[morgan98]

Of course they know they are doing something wrong. No one said they didn't.

I have no patience for them either, but otoh, I do know that not all affairs start with the intention of starting one.

Its just a decision some have made for themselves. You aren't going to get it because you don't want to and that's ok, you don't have to.

Again for the sake of discussion, it just seems arbitrary the agreement about meals. I do work with many men. Honestly, I want to sleep with none of them. I have also been cheated on, so y our statement to people about not getting it because they do not want to is insulting. I get it and I personally sometimes do get paranoid since it has happened to me before. But I have to trust and not punish my current husband for the sins of others so to speak.

But all this talk about not putting yourself in the position to be tempted by getting too close to someone. Does that include emails or texts? I have and do have men that I word with that text me on my cell phone after hours or over the weekend. Sometimes, it is about work things, other times it can be photos of vacation spots or things like that. Is that considered crossing the line.

I work in an industry where we work hundreds of hours of overtime a year. Work and personal time are blurred. Maybe that is why the meals, travel, etc are more of an issue and it is harder to understand this "decision." Quite frankly, it would be very hard to work around this. We also have very high turnover, especially in the first few years. Perhaps people have self selected out of the profession for this reason (or at least some have)

I have never said this decision is wrong. I am just trying to understand the parameters.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Of course they know they are doing something wrong. No one said they didn't.

I have no patience for them either, but otoh, I do know that not all affairs start with the intention of starting one.

Its just a decision some have made for themselves. You aren't going to get it because you don't want to and that's ok, you don't have to.

Not all affairs start intentionally, but everyone makes a conscious choice to cross that line. Really, I think very, very few people sleep together "accidentally".

Making a choice for yourself is fine. I understand that. But the PP was making it sound like it's inevitable that cheating happens, and that excuses the behavior of both the cheaters and the people who discriminate against people based on gender. Not fine.

 

[DisneyOma]

So in your opinion, every affair (and btw, affairs can be much more than "keeping your pants zipped") starts with the full intention of going out and finding someone to cheat with? All cheaters are habitual cheaters? Never at any time the history of affairs have any started innocently with work, or friendship (which no one said anyone couldn't have a friend of the opposite gender)?

I can't answer for others that say they have an "agreement" but it sounds like for most that have said it, its more of a decision than an agreement. As in: I make the decision for me, my spouse makes the decision for himself. And as everyone has said, its not about trust.

Anything can start from anything - but the choice to step over the line from friendship into something else is a matter of trust, and respect for the promise of the marriage bond. If you can't trust your spouse to have lunch with someone, if you have to make 'a decision to avoid temptation' by not spending time with certain people, then yes, it is completely about trust. If you can't handle the temptation of eating lunch with a person, having conversation, then it is all about trust. You don't trust yourself, your spouse, to say no. To realize the boundary. Sounds like jealousy, insecurity, and marriage issues if you can't trust your spouse.

 

[amberpi]

Is it just me, or is anyone else surprised this has been allowed to continue to this point?