Is it ok for spouse to go to lunch with co-worker of opposite sex?(Inspired by RIDISN

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

if there is a clear pattern of not mentoring women, or not mentoring certain minorities, etc then it can be assumed this will effect things. And if ther are men flat out saying they refuse to work individiúally with a woman, then YES; that is going to effect how the women are able to advance versus the men regarldess of other factors. SO, for example, Snarling Coyote's coworker who refused to dine alone with a female coworker and stated her gender was why---I think it could be pretty easy for someone to make a case that they are being denied advancement oppurtunity if their work is related to collaborting or learnign from him in ways typically done over a meal, etc and i would imagine HR wouldn't be ahppy about it and would explain that gender discrimination in the work place is illegal.

As long as mentoring is part of their job. Something that they are suppose to be doing. And something that they are choosing not to do.

Because if it isn't, the employee could simple stop mentoring. Or at least stop within earshot of other employees. Especially if they are doing it on their own time.

Like my husband in the example I gave a while back---he has the 12 people he works with to get them better trained to handle the individual issues. If he worked with the 10 male ones one on one so they learned and improved and refused to do the same with the two female ones---it WOULD prevent the women from leanring as much, especially since he creates teh training programs they are implementing. Since he really only ever sees any of these people while traveling and not at the same time, it would be possible the women would have no idea they were missing out on hours of instruction the men were getting and it would be possible their manages would have no idea either. But it would mean they'd be a lot less effective in their jobs than their male counterparts which would in turn reduce their chances of promotion. I am grateful that my husband would never mess with people's careers like that. I have no issue at all with him having dinner with anyone, but I would take issue with him limiting someone based on their gender.

Very true. Because working with them is part of his job.

His other option would be to, instead of working individually with the men, he could use small groups. That way he doesn't put himself in the position of being accused of discrimination. It really isn't difficult to do. Things like that might take a little foresight, but it would be something that would be normal for someone that knows they will not meet with individually with the opposite sex.

 

[Magpie]

You and others have repeatedly tried to convince me and others that we are wrong because of how it would impact someone in a different job.

I don't think you're wrong. You're free to live your life as you choose, and if it works for you and your husband, then that's terrific.

Ideally, you'd agree however that your personal self-imposed marital rules of conduct should not influence either public policy or general social mores. They should not be expected of anyone else. They should not be held up as particularly admirable or desirable in any way.

Just by way of example... I chose to stay home to raise my children. While this was the right choice for me, I still do not think that other women should be encouraged to do the same. I do not want to be held up as in any way more moral than a working mother. I do not want the leaders of my country to put in place policy that rewards my choice, while penalizing (however subtly and indirectly) women who choose differently.

On the flip side, I don't much enjoy being shamed for abandoning the working world, either. "What do you do?" "I'm a homemaker." "Oh."

I am not wrong for staying home. But I'm not right, either.

And I am keenly aware of the fact that I would not want to live in a country where every women stayed home with her child (or felt socially pressured to do so). I want women, and men, to have real choice and real equality, and to be able to work together freely and respectfully. A country where an engineer is an engineer, not a lady-engineer who can't go out to lunch with her boss without setting tongues wagging.

 

[NHdisneylover]

As long as mentoring is part of their job. Something that they are suppose to be doing. And something that they are choosing not to do.

Because if it isn't, the employee could simple stop mentoring. Or at least stop within earshot of other employees. Especially if they are doing it on their own time.
Very true. Because working with them is part of his job.

His other option would be to, instead of working individually with the men, he could use small groups. That way he doesn't put himself in the position of being accused of discrimination. It really isn't difficult to do. Things like that might take a little foresight, but it would be something that would be normal for someone that knows they will not meet with individually with the opposite sex.

No he cannot work with them in a group--eahc is for a different topic and the sole person and they are never at the same worksites at the same time.

he could:
1. not mentor 8it is not actually required of him, but it would be bad for the company, bad for the people being mentored and bad for him to not create reliable peopel to handle things meaning he'd have to handle it)
2. Only mentor the men and add yet another pane to the glass ceiling for the women (ehtically wrong IMO)
3. Mentor all as he does (go him!)
4. Have refused this, and many other jobs so as to truly work in a situation in which he is never in a position to discrimante agaisnt women if it bothered him to be alone with one (this is morally fine with me---and my point, if you have that rule in your relationship that is FINE but you should not allow it to carry over into you creating obsticals for people at work, so taht means it is incumbent upon you to make sure you are not in a position where you would be by following that rule).

 

[pryncess527]

Because if it isn't, the employee could simple stop mentoring. Or at least stop within earshot of other employees. Especially if they are doing it on their own time.

.

Wait, i just reread this and I'm a bit horrified by this suggestion. I'm going to assume I misunderstood -- because it sounds like you are suggesting that it's fine if her husband mentors men and does not mentor women as long as he does it out of earshot of women and therefore his discrimination is harder to detect. I sure hope that's not what you meant.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Wait, i just reread this and I'm a bit horrified by this suggestion. I'm going to assume I misunderstood -- because it sounds like you are suggesting that it's fine if her husband mentors men and does not mentor women as long as he does it out of earshot of women and therefore his discrimination is harder to detect. I sure hope that's not what you meant.

I read it the same way. It does appear (hopefully it was not explained clearly) that the poster is OK with women being dirscrimanted against in the workplace and having more hurdles, so long as it is harder for them to be sure of why or how it is happening. And that IS horrifying. So, like you, I hope that it is simply not well explaiend and not at all what hte poster means.

 

[CarolAnn856]

You and others have repeatedly tried to convince me and others that we are wrong because of how it would impact someone in a different job.

No, not one person has done that. Most of us have tried to discuss this in a general sense, with personal experiences used to explain what we mean. Yes, one aspect we have noted is that this practice *could* impact others negatively, and several have shared instances where it could. That does not mean anyone is saying that you, yourself, are hurting others' careers. If you are taking it personally, that is completely on you.

 

[morgan98]

Folks, you are still trying to take something that is part of one person's life and fit it into another life. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. In MY line of work and in DH's line of work, it isn't a big deal. In DS's line of work or in DIL's it isn't a big deal. DS is on an oil rig in the middle of the ocean with a bunch of men. Who exactly is he holding back by not having a work lunch with a woman????

Me not having lunch with the science teacher isn't going to effect morgan98's job, it just isn't. You don't get to tell anyone that the way they conduct themselves or their marriage is wrong, just as no one gets to tell you the same thing.

I am not talking about you or your work situation at all. Not talking about anyone in particular. I am trying to explain how in my profession, how if I or someone else had this "rule" that it could impact things.

I do not feel that I get mentored less than the men, actually. I feel that I am very fortunate in that regard. However, I feel that if I limited my interactions, it would impact my career. I am not saying it would hold me back. I am saying that I would not be included in certain situations where learning or sharing of knowledge does take place.

 

[ronandannette]

I do think that is a natural tendency for most people, no matter what your position in a discussion. I am genuinely curious, not trying to debate you, but I was wondering what would happen if you or your husband found yourselves in that kind of work environment? Or do you actively avoid pursuing those kinds of jobs? As others have noted, there are many fields and positions where trying to quietly include a third party for lunches, etc. would be basically impossible without raising questions from co-workers or making the execution of work extremely difficult.

ETA: In the interest of fairness, I can describe how I think I would respond if a male colleague said he could not meet me over lunch without a third party. I would certainly respect his decision and not insist upon that kind of meeting if it could be avoided. However, I can't say that it wouldn't have a negative impact on my impression of him, as I think I would feel that he did not see me as a professional equal. And, if I was in business where working lunches and travel were common, I would not feel compelled to vary my work style or schedule in order to suit his personal decision.

OK, sure, I'll take a stab at imagining what we might do. First and foremost, we would understand the requirements of any job we accept and commit 100% to performing satisfactorily. If that included business lunches, dinners, over-night travel or whatever, we would do it - end of story. But on a purely social level it would still be a "no". And I'm very curious about the bolded. As we are both just imagining these scenarios, I actually find it hard to picture anybody actually saying to anybody else "Sorry, I'd like to but since you're a (wo)man, I just can't."

No, I have not, even once, tried to convince you that how you and your husband act in your marriage is wrong. I've repeatedly made statements about not judging the relationships of otehrs.

I have, however, asked that people be THOUGHTFUL in how their choices may impact work relationships. You say yours are not impacted -- fine. I take you at your word. But that is not universally true for everyone, and we have provided examples how others are negatively impacted by similar decisions. I have not asked youto change, nor called you wrong. I have shared information in hopes that people will be THOUGHTFUL.

Sorry if I've missed it, but what I think has actually been provided is examples of how people imagine it might impact them, or others, if it were really happening to them. I don't remember reading any PP's who have said they have opposite-sex supervisors or colleagues who won't spend time alone with them. In fact, almost everybody on this thread is completely incredulous that people would actually live like this, let alone say that they know anybody who does.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Wait, i just reread this and I'm a bit horrified by this suggestion. I'm going to assume I misunderstood -- because it sounds like you are suggesting that it's fine if her husband mentors men and does not mentor women as long as he does it out of earshot of women and therefore his discrimination is harder to detect. I sure hope that's not what you meant.

What I am saying is that what someone does on their own time, well, that is up to them. And if, on their own time, they want to only mentor those of the same sex, they can do that. As long as they don't talk about what they are doing during their off hours, during their work hours, work has no input.

And it doesn't matter if the mentor is male or female. The outcome is the same. Someone, on their own time, is doing their own thing. There is nothing illegal in that.

 

[Magpie]

Sorry if I've missed it, but what I think has actually been provided is examples of how people imagine it might impact them, or others, if it were really happening to them. I don't remember reading any PP's who have said they have opposite-sex supervisors or colleagues who won't spend time alone with them. In fact, almost everybody on this thread is completely incredulous that people would actually live like this, let alone say that they know anybody who does.

Rigs32 wrote: "I have been working in my industry for almost a decade now. Used to be male dominated, but is becoming more evenly distributed. But I frequently see men with my level of experience being mentored by other more powerful men in ways that those senior men would *never* mentor women - golfing, drinks, meals. And when politics (in the general sense) comes into play, those male to male relationships open doors for those men that just aren't available to me. It's frustrating."

And SnarlingCoyote wrote: "A situation where the wife doesn't want her husband to eat alone with a woman when they are travelling on business came up the other day and the husband is respecting his wife's feelings. I'd never heard of such in 30 years of work before this and neither had the other women in our department. If he had put forth this restriction when he was interviewing for the job, he might well not have gotten the job, in fact, as we do travel and you WILL most likely be travelling with one other woman, so there is a clear logistical difficulty in his not eating alone with a woman. Fortunately, I don't travel with him, so no skin off my nose. I rather strongly suspect that if he travels with one particular woman in our department quite senior to him, he is eventually going to get told how the cow eats its cabbage. It will be interesting how this plays out."

And then there was the Atlantic article cited earlier which gives many different examples, and cites research and stats which show that this is indeed a serious problem in both Washington politics and the business world.

It's not a purely theoretical problem. It's real.

On a purely personal level, I myself experienced a fair bit of sex-based workplace discrimination when I was in the military, all those years ago. Some men didn't want to let me do my job and would jump in to "help" aka take over (because "that's how I was raised" - ugh!). I had to continually prove that I was capable in ways a man would never be asked to, and when I succeeded they'd tell me I "wasn't like other girls" as if that was supposed to be some kind of compliment. I used to catch rides back to my hometown on the weekend with a lieutenant who was headed in the same direction, until one day he suddenly said, "I can't talk to you any more and you're going to have to find another way to get home." When I asked why, he said, "You're a girl and it's inappropriate." I remember I was shocked at the suddenness of it all, especially since he'd never made even so much as a friendly pass at me. The worst part... he continued to offer lift to other - male - soldiers. Maybe his girlfriend got jealous? Or maybe he thought this is how you show respect to your woman. I know I sure didn't feel he respected me!

 

[CarolAnn856]

OK, sure, I'll take a stab at imagining what we might do. First and foremost, we would understand the requirements of any job we accept and commit 100% to performing satisfactorily. If that included business lunches, dinners, over-night travel or whatever, we would do it - end of story. But on a purely social level it would still be a "no". And I'm very curious about the bolded. As we are both just imagining these scenarios, I actually find it hard to picture anybody actually saying to anybody else "Sorry, I'd like to but since you're a (wo)man, I just can't."

Thank you!

For the bolded...fair enough, I doubt many would come out and phrase it like that. However, another poster said that a coworker did indeed say he couldn't dine with his female colleague while on travel, so I guess it can happen, even if not often. The other possibility is that if someone always finds an excuse to either bring someone else along or decline, then it could become more obvious.

 

[CarolAnn856]

What I am saying is that what someone does on their own time, well, that is up to them. And if, on their own time, they want to only mentor those of the same sex, they can do that. As long as they don't talk about what they are doing during their off hours, during their work hours, work has no input.

And it doesn't matter if the mentor is male or female. The outcome is the same. Someone, on their own time, is doing their own thing. There is nothing illegal in that.

Well, sexism is definitely alive and well.

 

[ronandannette]

Rigs32 wrote: "I have been working in my industry for almost a decade now. Used to be male dominated, but is becoming more evenly distributed. But I frequently see men with my level of experience being mentored by other more powerful men in ways that those senior men would *never* mentor women - golfing, drinks, meals. And when politics (in the general sense) comes into play, those male to male relationships open doors for those men that just aren't available to me. It's frustrating."

And SnarlingCoyote wrote: "A situation where the wife doesn't want her husband to eat alone with a woman when they are travelling on business came up the other day and the husband is respecting his wife's feelings. I'd never heard of such in 30 years of work before this and neither had the other women in our department. If he had put forth this restriction when he was interviewing for the job, he might well not have gotten the job, in fact, as we do travel and you WILL most likely be travelling with one other woman, so there is a clear logistical difficulty in his not eating alone with a woman. Fortunately, I don't travel with him, so no skin off my nose. I rather strongly suspect that if he travels with one particular woman in our department quite senior to him, he is eventually going to get told how the cow eats its cabbage. It will be interesting how this plays out."

And then there was the Atlantic article cited earlier which gives many different examples, and cites research and stats which show that this is indeed a serious problem in both Washington politics and the business world.

It's not a purely theoretical problem. It's real.

On a purely personal level, I myself experienced a fair bit of sex-based workplace discrimination when I was in the military, all those years ago. Some men didn't want to let me do my job and would jump in to "help" aka take over (because "that's how I was raised" - ugh!). I had to continually prove that I was capable in ways a man would never be asked to, and when I succeeded they'd tell me I "wasn't like other girls" as if that was supposed to be some kind of compliment. I used to catch rides back to my hometown on the weekend with a lieutenant who was headed in the same direction, until one day he suddenly said, "I can't talk to you any more and you're going to have to find another way to get home." When I asked why, he said, "You're a girl and it's inappropriate." I remember I was shocked at the suddenness of it all, especially since he'd never made even so much as a friendly pass at me. The worst part... he continued to offer lift to other - male - soldiers. Maybe his girlfriend got jealous? Or maybe he thought this is how you show respect to your woman. I know I sure didn't feel he respected me!

I've got no doubt that many women (past and present) have very real challenges in relation to the way they are viewed and treated by men in the workplace. But really, other than your own personal example, which was apparently a sudden, unexpected occurrence, don't those examples sound more like systemic discrimination, misogyny or even just plain old cronyism? (Especially the example by @rigs32 - totally sounds like the "old boy's club".) I guess we'll never know, but I'd love to know how many of the men involved shared a value with their wives of not spending social time with members of the opposite sex.

 

[AlaskaMomof2]

I accidentally came upon this thread while researching an upcoming Disney trip. However I do have experience/comments in the spouse opposite sex work interaction topic.
My husband works from home but travels a lot! Has for years. I never questioned who he was with or pried for more info. I'd hear random names companies etc upon his return. I was very preoccupied with raising two small children.
On one of his international tips he left his beloved iPad at home. Unbeknownst he had his text messages work emails etc linked. I decided to play games on it one night. What I saw was disheartening. Other coworkers comments on hot girls they were hooking up with there. Husband and coworkers looking to hit the bars after meetings. Women included. When we'd talk he was so tired busy, missing home. (The usual banter I heard for years.) I asked his evening plans, what he's been doing. All lies, according to texts I'd seen. Grabbing early dinner with "Paul" then getting some sleep still jet lagged. But then I'd see hours later texts messages back and forth of everyone meeting at bars etc. He returned home and I was unsure how to proceed. Decided to confront him with what I'd seen. It wasn't pretty. Yelling denial. Blaming ME FOR HIS LIES. After a few weeks went by, I became the wife I'd only read about. I snooped everywhere. Wallet phone computer. I began to see a pattern. Found receipts emails etc all contradictory to what I had been told for so many trips. A picture of him and 2 young coworkers was texted to him from another coworker. I lied when I found it saying it was on the cloud. He denied knowing who they were, coworker took the picture and he didn't know the girls. LIE. He knew both and actually had travelled with one several times. The other he had just met that trip while in Europe. But she caught his eye..... I found an email of him requesting to link with her on LinkedIn the day he returned. People don't lie unless they have a reason to hide. Was he unfaithful? No I don't think so, but then what constitutes infidelity? Only sex? Or Touching? Getting drunk in bars and flirting? All infidelities to me. Especially when lied about. Especially when the coworkers/clients are single women looking to bar hop with a married man. To this day I question everything he tells me. I trusted him with my all my heart.

 

[CarolAnn856]

I accidentally came upon this thread while researching an upcoming Disney trip. However I do have experience/comments in the spouse opposite sex work interaction topic.
My husband works from home but travels a lot! Has for years. I never questioned who he was with or pried for more info. I'd hear random names companies etc upon his return. I was very preoccupied with raising two small children.
On one of his international tips he left his beloved iPad at home. Unbeknownst he had his text messages work emails etc linked. I decided to play games on it one night. What I saw was disheartening. Other coworkers comments on hot girls they were hooking up with there. Husband and coworkers looking to hit the bars after meetings. Women included. When we'd talk he was so tired busy, missing home. (The usual banter I heard for years.) I asked his evening plans, what he's been doing. All lies, according to texts I'd seen. Grabbing early dinner with "Paul" then getting some sleep still jet lagged. But then I'd see hours later texts messages back and forth of everyone meeting at bars etc. He returned home and I was unsure how to proceed. Decided to confront him with what I'd seen. It wasn't pretty. Yelling denial. Blaming ME FOR HIS LIES. After a few weeks went by, I became the wife I'd only read about. I snooped everywhere. Wallet phone computer. I began to see a pattern. Found receipts emails etc all contradictory to what I had been told for so many trips. A picture of him and 2 young coworkers was texted to him from another coworker. I lied when I found it saying it was on the cloud. He denied knowing who they were, coworker took the picture and he didn't know the girls. LIE. He knew both and actually had travelled with one several times. The other he had just met that trip while in Europe. But she caught his eye..... I found an email of him requesting to link with her on LinkedIn the day he returned. People don't lie unless they have a reason to hide. Was he unfaithful? No I don't think so, but then what constitutes infidelity? Only sex? Or Touching? Getting drunk in bars and flirting? All infidelities to me. Especially when lied about. Especially when the coworkers/clients are single women looking to bar hop with a married man. To this day I question everything he tells me. I trusted him with my all my heart.

I'm very sorry you are experiencing that. People do cheat, and sometimes it is with people they know through work. Nobody is denying that. I hope you are seeking help or therapy, as it is clear that you need some support. My best wishes to you.

 

[mummabear]

So noI wouldn't have a problem, generally. Like another poster said my DH travels a lot for work, can be 4 months a year totalled, he is in a male dominated industry but sometimes he will be grabbing lunch or dinner with workmates or customers, sometimes in groups, sometimes one on one, he has given me no reason not to trust him and it would not do my mental Heath well to be worried for no reason every time he is away (and he works from home when he is not away).

However he told me about one female coworker who came into him one trip, invited him back to her room and said she didn't care he was married, he called me from his room to tell me, needless to say I wouldn't be happy if he was having one on one lunches with her-again not because I don't trust him but because her behaviour crossed the line.

When I was working (I'm a SAHM) I became good friends with a male colleuge, we are still friends more than 10 years later, DH also sometimes joined us, I also still caught (and now as well) with an old friend from school for lunch sometimes, DH also sometimes joined us.

My motto is that if you have to sneak, hide or lie about something hen what you are doing isn't right whether it's drinking, gambling, eating or your relationship with someone outside of your spouse, so if you would be happy for your spouse to join you, be shown a tape of how you acted etc then you are probably fine, if you would be okay if they had that same sort of relationship with someone, then you are probably fine, but if you are lying about who you went to lunch with, or lying that there was other people there etc then you are crossing a line somewhere

 

[mummabear]

eople don't lie unless they have a reason to hide. Was he unfaithful? No I don't think so, but then what constitutes infidelity? Only sex? Or Touching? Getting drunk in bars and flirting? All infidelities to me. Especially when lied about. Especially when the coworkers/clients are single women looking to bar hop with a married man. To this day I question everything he tells me. I trusted him with my all my heart

This exactly, I think most couples can agree not to be unfaithful but not everyone has a chat about what they consider to be infidelity: sure we all know hitting home base is a universal agreement, but is holding hands? Flirty texts? Emotional sharing? A lap dance? Dirty dancing? Online relationships?
It's better to clearly set boundaries than assume you are both on the same page.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

OK, sure, I'll take a stab at imagining what we might do. First and foremost, we would understand the requirements of any job we accept and commit 100% to performing satisfactorily. If that included business lunches, dinners, over-night travel or whatever, we would do it - end of story. But on a purely social level it would still be a "no". And I'm very curious about the bolded. As we are both just imagining these scenarios, I actually find it hard to picture anybody actually saying to anybody else "Sorry, I'd like to but since you're a (wo)man, I just can't."


Sorry if I've missed it, but what I think has actually been provided is examples of how people imagine it might impact them, or others, if it were really happening to them. I don't remember reading any PP's who have said they have opposite-sex supervisors or colleagues who won't spend time alone with them. In fact, almost everybody on this thread is completely incredulous that people would actually live like this, let alone say that they know anybody who does.

Actually, I pointed out that someone in my company has said EXACTLY that.

 

[kimblebee]

AND, I would now like to take this lull as an opportunity to thank kimblebee for this thread resurrection. It has been truly insight full.

I don't know why you keep blaming me for it LOL

I didn't go searching for it and I didn't reply to it first.

 

[Allison]

I don't know why you keep blaming me for it LOL

I didn't go searching for it and I didn't reply to it first.

She is pretty focused on it though.