Is it ok for spouse to go to lunch with co-worker of opposite sex?(Inspired by RIDISN

[Westcoastwild]

I wouldn't say suck it up, but I would be surprised if a woman gave a man a lift several times and then suddenly announced she felt uncomfortable doing this. I would actually wonder if he'd done something inappropriate to her and I might be suspicious of him, moving forward!

Since I know I didn't do anything untoward to the gentleman, though, we can rule that one out.

Possibly the gas... I can't remember if I offered to chip in or not. I was very young, so it's entirely conceivable I didn't think of it. But I'd hope he'd have had the guts to say something to me. And yes... possibly I talked too much (that is something I do), but then again, shouldn't he tell me, instead of claiming it's because I'm a "girl"? I mean, imagine if he'd decided he didn't want to give a black colleague a lift any more because the guy talked too much and didn't chip in for gas, but instead of saying either of these, he says, "It's because you're black and I'm white and it's inappropriate!"

In any case, I got the distinct impression someone had talked to him. I don't know if it was a girlfriend or a superior, but I was disappointed with him, either way. I don't think he's a monster, though. He was also very young, and just handled things badly.

Male teachers are in exactly the same position as women trying to make inroads into non-traditional fields. They're isolated, viewed with suspicion and sometimes even antipathy, and prevented from performing their duties with the same freedom their female colleagues enjoy. They shouldn't have to take special precautions around the kids just because they're male, any more than a female trucker should have to face sexual harassment just because they're female.

It's wrong, no matter what gender we're talking about! And it's something that needs to change. If the prohibition against being alone with students can't currently be lifted for male teachers, then it needs to be applied to female teachers as well. No exceptions.

When I was helping with my children's cub scout troop, no one was allowed to be alone with the kids, male or female, parent or leader. Everyone had to follow the same rules.

As for the doctor... I don't think this is universally applied. Every time a doctor has given me a physical (ie, looked at me lady bits), the two of us have been the only people in the room. My regular doctor is male. I've never requested a nurse be present, though if I'm at the clinic (and seeing a doctor I don't know) they always tell me I can, if I want. I'm usually all, "No, no, let's just get this over with!"

I somehow missed that this was the military you were talking about. I bet it was a superior. That would make sense. Dad's former army and that something his colleagues are very cautious about, especially when there's a rank difference.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I agree with you on the depressing thing.

But I'm not sure about the mentoring. Official mentoring- sure, that's wrong to deny someone.

But the thing is, unofficial mentoring- socializing after hours or whatever- that is off the clock. Getting together, doing stuff like golfing or fishing. I've known female coworkers who complain they feel left out of the "in crowd" at work. But it's like school- you might get to be part of an excellent study group or an invite to a party of movers and shakers because you were taken under wing by someone with connections and because they like you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: sometimes good old boys club is active discrimination, but at most jobs I've had, it's not. It's just that people won't invite you golfing or fishing if you clearly hate golfing and fishing. If you don't get invited, you don't make those connections.

yes, of course some true connections form based on personality or really seeing some potential and skill in the person---but if those metors have a rule that they never, ever, work/socialize/mentor in that way with only one gender (or one ethnicitiy or one religion) regardless of personality or interests or skill, that becomes a big problem---and it seems at least one poster here is FINE with that so long as it is "on your own time". To me that is just blatant discrimination.

 

[Magpie]

I agree with you on the depressing thing.

But I'm not sure about the mentoring. Official mentoring- sure, that's wrong to deny someone.

But the thing is, unofficial mentoring- socializing after hours or whatever- that is off the clock. Getting together, doing stuff like golfing or fishing. I've known female coworkers who complain they feel left out of the "in crowd" at work. But it's like school- you might get to be part of an excellent study group or an invite to a party of movers and shakers because you were taken under wing by someone with connections and because they like you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: sometimes good old boys club is active discrimination, but at most jobs I've had, it's not. It's just that people won't invite you golfing or fishing if you clearly hate golfing and fishing. If you don't get invited, you don't make those connections.

This is one of those cases when modern sensitivity training can really help.

If the head of an office is having an afterhours platonic romance with a subordinate (male or female), then this person needs to be aware of what they're doing and take steps to avoid the appearance of favoritism and cronyism. Doesn't mean they can't still be great friends with their subordinate, but it's always good to be cognizant both of how it can look to people on the outside and of the power imbalance inherent in this relationship. The people working for you need to believe that you are fair and unbiased.

As a leader, you are responsible for everyone working beneath you. It's your job to bring out the best in all of them. Singling out one individual as your special friend to help and nurture and guide, while fun for you, can be problematic for everyone else in the office. It has to be handled sensitively.

Similarly, if the tradition is that everyone goes golfing after work once a week, then you must invite the lady regardless of whether or not you think she'll say yes. You never assume she hates golfing, because even if she does, she might very well be willing to go anyway for the sake of her career. If she says no, and everyone goes without her, then that's on her. Although, again, as an effective leader, you may also want to take this opportunity to consider whether this is a tradition worth keeping. Is there some other office-bonding social activity that would appeal to everyone?

 

[Magpie]

I somehow missed that this was the military you were talking about. I bet it was a superior. That would make sense. Dad's former army and that something his colleagues are very cautious about, especially when there's a rank difference.

The funniest part of all this was that while they would make a huge fuss about males interacting with females in some aspects of my job (ie, the girls' tent was literally roped off), they were inconsistent in the rest of it. I could spend hours sitting in a windowless truck with a sergeant, waiting for something to come through on the radio and reading his collections of dirty jokes, and that was fine. But, on maneuvers, a superior officer inexplicably decided it'd be "safer" to stick me way out in the bushes all by myself under my tarp, where I felt very lonely and vulnerable. (I'm sure I heard wolves! ) And yet, when we were moving as a troop and didn't have time to pitch camp, he was completely okay with me sleeping in the middle of a pile of exhausted men, like we were all puppies. I can sleep with a man's head in my lap, but I wasn't allowed to pitch my tent near his.

My guess is, they really didn't have any standards for integrating women into the force and they were feeling their way blind. I really hope things have standardized by now, because it was hard never knowing what was appropriate and what wasn't.

Especially as I was somehow supposed to know, and could be criticized for not anticipating, and yet my superiors were entirely inconsistent themselves. I still remember showing up late for the ritual handing out of condoms. The sergeant ordered me to kneel and ask for it... which was flippin' hilarious to all those 19 year old boys.

And it was absolutely because I was a girl. The sniggering and jokes about "on your knees" left no doubt.

(Edit: I should add, in case I've given the wrong impression, that I really enjoyed my time working with the military. It was fun, challenging, and I liked most of my colleagues. I'm not the sort to faint at a naughty joke. I did come out of it, though, with a more finely tuned sense of what it means to be a woman in a traditionally male-dominated environment.)

 

[CarolAnn856]

It's wrong, no matter what gender we're talking about! And it's something that needs to change. If the prohibition against being alone with students can't currently be lifted for male teachers, then it needs to be applied to female teachers as well. No exceptions.

In fairness, it is, at least in any school where I have worked. If any teacher, male or female, is going to be alone with a student, the recommendations are to either meet in a more "public" area, such as the library, or to make sure the door is always open (which, of course, contradicts the fire code, but we routinely deal with conflicting codes).

 

[Westcoastwild]

This is one of those cases when modern sensitivity training can really help.

If the head of an office is having an afterhours platonic romance with a subordinate (male or female), then this person needs to be aware of what they're doing and take steps to avoid the appearance of favoritism and cronyism. Doesn't mean they can't still be great friends with their subordinate, but it's always good to be cognizant both of how it can look to people on the outside and of the power imbalance inherent in this relationship. The people working for you need to believe that you are fair and unbiased.

As a leader, you are responsible for everyone working beneath you. It's your job to bring out the best in all of them. Singling out one individual as your special friend to help and nurture and guide, while fun for you, can be problematic for everyone else in the office. It has to be handled sensitively.

Similarly, if the tradition is that everyone goes golfing after work once a week, then you invite the lady regardless of whether or not you think she'll say yes. You never assume she hates golfing, because even if she does, she might very well be willing to go anyway for the sake of her career. If she says no, and everyone goes without her, then that's on her. Although, again, as an effective leader, you may also want to take this opportunity to consider whether this is a tradition worth keeping. Is there some other office-bonding social activity that would appeal to everyone?

I'm not necessarily saying it's an official office bonding ritual. It's socializing. Sure, someone might say yes if they feel their job depends on it. But they probably wouldn't be invited again if they turn out to be a downer or just a terrible player.

My point is that I don't think it's something anyone can regulate. The boss could mentor the person who doesn't like golf some other way, and should, but that won't negate the fact that he/she probably knows the golfing people better, and has more in common with them.

I'm only using golfing and fishing as examples because those are things that my female coworkers would never do. One of my previous jobs- I wasn't part of the "in crowd" because I don't drink. People invited me to the bars in the beginning, but it's awkward to be the only person drinking sprite, and this was when smoking was still allowed in bars and that's a migraine trigger for me- so I turned the invites down. And they stopped inviting me. My roommate who also worked there thought it should bug me, but I don't actually like socializing with coworkers outside of work. I can't see being mentored extensively or offering to mentor someone else. Work- life balance is important to me, and unless it was a situation where I was on call, I'm not in constant contact with work over weekends or whatever.

 

[Magpie]

I'm not necessarily saying it's an official office bonding ritual. It's socializing. Sure, someone might say yes if they feel their job depends on it. But they probably wouldn't be invited again if they turn out to be a downer or just a terrible player.

My point is that I don't think it's something anyone can regulate. The boss could mentor the person who doesn't like golf some other way, and should, but that won't negate the fact that he/she probably knows the golfing people better, and has more in common with them.

I'm only using golfing and fishing as examples because those are things that my female coworkers would never do. One of my previous jobs- I wasn't part of the "in crowd" because I don't drink. People invited me to the bars in the beginning, but it's awkward to be the only person drinking sprite, and this was when smoking was still allowed in bars and that's a migraine trigger for me- so I turned the invites down. And they stopped inviting me. My roommate who also worked there thought it should bug me, but I don't actually like socializing with coworkers outside of work. I can't see being mentored extensively or offering to mentor someone else. Work- life balance is important to me, and unless it was a situation where I was on call, I'm not in constant contact with work over weekends or whatever.

I think the difference is, you were given the opportunity, and you freely declined.

Balance and equity is what the boss should ideally be striving for. It's fundamental to his/her job.

 

[Westcoastwild]

The funniest part of all this was that while they would make a huge fuss about males interacting with females in some aspects of my job (ie, the girls' tent was literally roped off), they were inconsistent in the rest of it. I could spend hours sitting in a windowless truck with a sergeant, waiting for something to come through on the radio and reading his collections of dirty jokes, and that was fine. But, on maneuvers, a superior officer inexplicably decided it'd be "safer" to stick me way out in the bushes all by myself under my tarp, where I felt very lonely and vulnerable. (I'm sure I heard wolves! ) And yet, when we were moving as a troop and didn't have time to pitch camp, he was completely okay with me sleeping in the middle of a pile of exhausted men, like we were all puppies. I can sleep with a man's head in my lap, but I wasn't allowed to pitch my tent near his.

My guess is, they really didn't have any standards for integrating women into the force and they were feeling their way blind. I really hope things have standardized by now, because it was hard never knowing what was appropriate and what wasn't.

Especially as I was somehow supposed to know, and could be criticized for not anticipating, and yet my superiors were entirely inconsistent themselves. I still remember showing up late for the ritual handing out of condoms. The sergeant ordered me to kneel and ask for it... which was flippin' hilarious to all those 19 year old boys.

And it was absolutely because I was a girl. The sniggering and jokes about "on your knees" left no doubt.

Well, the inconsistency sounds like the military all over.

I think it's gotten somewhat more consistent but that may just be in specific situations or branches. The people I know who went in as officers (rotc/ West Point) had a much different experience than the ladies I know who enlisted. The latter were navy and the stories they've told me are very similar to your experience.

 

[Magpie]

Well, the inconsistency sounds like the military all over.

I think it's gotten somewhat more consistent but that may just be in specific situations or branches. The people I know who went in as officers (rotc/ West Point) had a much different experience than the ladies I know who enlisted. The latter were navy and the stories they've told me are very similar to your experience.

Aw, that's unfortunate!

Hopefully, as more women move into the different branches of the armed forces, it'll continue to change for the better. (I actually tried to convince my daughter to sign up for the Reserves, but she decided it wasn't her thing.)

 

[PollyannaMom]

I agree with you on the depressing thing.

But I'm not sure about the mentoring. Official mentoring- sure, that's wrong to deny someone.

But the thing is, unofficial mentoring- socializing after hours or whatever- that is off the clock. Getting together, doing stuff like golfing or fishing. I've known female coworkers who complain they feel left out of the "in crowd" at work. But it's like school- you might get to be part of an excellent study group or an invite to a party of movers and shakers because you were taken under wing by someone with connections and because they like you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: sometimes good old boys club is active discrimination, but at most jobs I've had, it's not. It's just that people won't invite you golfing or fishing if you clearly hate golfing and fishing. If you don't get invited, you don't make those connections.

yes, of course some true connections form based on personality or really seeing some potential and skill in the person---but if those metors have a rule that they never, ever, work/socialize/mentor in that way with only one gender (or one ethnicitiy or one religion) regardless of personality or interests or skill, that becomes a big problem---and it seems at least one poster here is FINE with that so long as it is "on your own time". To me that is just blatant discrimination.

I see it as similar to the advice I give kids at recess - it's absolutely fine to play with just one or two good friends, it's not very nice to ask everyone to play but one person. (Before this becomes a side discussion...I do listen if they say "It's because so and so didn't follow the rules last time.")

In the grown-up case, it's fine to hand-pick one person to mentor. It's not fine if half the office has no chance at all of being that one person.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I think the difference is, you were given the opportunity, and you freely declined.

Balance and equity is what the boss should ideally be striving for. It's fundamental to his/her job.

Then we're in agreement. Shouldn't be exclusive at all. I wasn't talking about deliberate discrimination. I just think connections happen naturally. Off the clock mentoring isn't something that would ever be consistent by definition. It's not like the senior worker sends out invitations. It's more like they ask the new guy if they like to fish and did they want to come along this weekend.

 

[DopeyDame]

I don't think you're wrong. You're free to live your life as you choose, and if it works for you and your husband, then that's terrific.

Ideally, you'd agree however that your personal self-imposed marital rules of conduct should not influence either public policy or general social mores. They should not be expected of anyone else. They should not be held up as particularly admirable or desirable in any way.

Just by way of example... I chose to stay home to raise my children. While this was the right choice for me, I still do not think that other women should be encouraged to do the same. I do not want to be held up as in any way more moral than a working mother. I do not want the leaders of my country to put in place policy that rewards my choice, while penalizing (however subtly and indirectly) women who choose differently.

On the flip side, I don't much enjoy being shamed for abandoning the working world, either. "What do you do?" "I'm a homemaker." "Oh."

I am not wrong for staying home. But I'm not right, either.

And I am keenly aware of the fact that I would not want to live in a country where every women stayed home with her child (or felt socially pressured to do so). I want women, and men, to have real choice and real equality, and to be able to work together freely and respectfully. A country where an engineer is an engineer, not a lady-engineer who can't go out to lunch with her boss without setting tongues wagging.

Someday I'd love to meet you in person Magpie! You sound awesome.

 

[DopeyDame]

On a purely personal level, I myself experienced a fair bit of sex-based workplace discrimination when I was in the military, all those years ago. Some men didn't want to let me do my job and would jump in to "help" aka take over (because "that's how I was raised" - ugh!). I had to continually prove that I was capable in ways a man would never be asked to, and when I succeeded they'd tell me I "wasn't like other girls" as if that was supposed to be some kind of compliment. I used to catch rides back to my hometown on the weekend with a lieutenant who was headed in the same direction, until one day he suddenly said, "I can't talk to you any more and you're going to have to find another way to get home." When I asked why, he said, "You're a girl and it's inappropriate." I remember I was shocked at the suddenness of it all, especially since he'd never made even so much as a friendly pass at me. The worst part... he continued to offer lift to other - male - soldiers. Maybe his girlfriend got jealous? Or maybe he thought this is how you show respect to your woman. I know I sure didn't feel he respected me!

Oh my word! I can't tell you how many times I've been told "well, you're not reallllllllly a girl" or "you're just one of the guys anyway"
Not cool.
I love that I've generally been welcomed into my teams as just a regular-old-member of the team, but the idea that being just a regular-old-member of the team makes me "one of the guys" rather than a competent woman just burns me up sometimes.

 

[DopeyDame]

I accidentally came upon this thread while researching an upcoming Disney trip. However I do have experience/comments in the spouse opposite sex work interaction topic.
My husband works from home but travels a lot! Has for years. I never questioned who he was with or pried for more info. I'd hear random names companies etc upon his return. I was very preoccupied with raising two small children.
On one of his international tips he left his beloved iPad at home. Unbeknownst he had his text messages work emails etc linked. I decided to play games on it one night. What I saw was disheartening. Other coworkers comments on hot girls they were hooking up with there. Husband and coworkers looking to hit the bars after meetings. Women included. When we'd talk he was so tired busy, missing home. (The usual banter I heard for years.) I asked his evening plans, what he's been doing. All lies, according to texts I'd seen. Grabbing early dinner with "Paul" then getting some sleep still jet lagged. But then I'd see hours later texts messages back and forth of everyone meeting at bars etc. He returned home and I was unsure how to proceed. Decided to confront him with what I'd seen. It wasn't pretty. Yelling denial. Blaming ME FOR HIS LIES. After a few weeks went by, I became the wife I'd only read about. I snooped everywhere. Wallet phone computer. I began to see a pattern. Found receipts emails etc all contradictory to what I had been told for so many trips. A picture of him and 2 young coworkers was texted to him from another coworker. I lied when I found it saying it was on the cloud. He denied knowing who they were, coworker took the picture and he didn't know the girls. LIE. He knew both and actually had travelled with one several times. The other he had just met that trip while in Europe. But she caught his eye..... I found an email of him requesting to link with her on LinkedIn the day he returned. People don't lie unless they have a reason to hide. Was he unfaithful? No I don't think so, but then what constitutes infidelity? Only sex? Or Touching? Getting drunk in bars and flirting? All infidelities to me. Especially when lied about. Especially when the coworkers/clients are single women looking to bar hop with a married man. To this day I question everything he tells me. I trusted him with my all my heart.

Oh I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I hope you and your husband can somehow find a way to regain the trust he broke.

 

[Frankie Nova]

Of course this is just my opinion. I think regardless whether it is for work or whatever reason do not think it is a good idea. The attraction between a male and female is extremely dangerous and before you say well I love my spouse too much to do that. Talk to others that have said the same thing but fell into the pit of adultery. I am a Christian man and very well versed in scripture and in real life situations. I think you might be surprised of what you think you have control of, or how a man or women can be enticed to do thru the wearing down of another's aggressive pressing (if that person wants it)
Too many biblical examples for me too play around or put myself in a situation that can get out of hand due to our nature and make up
Read about David and Samson.
Before you say well maybe you don't trust yourself or Love your wife enough. I will say this I love my wife way too much to do it.
No opportunity, No Regret !
God Bless

 

[NFLDERS]

I don't know why you keep blaming me for it LOL

I didn't go searching for it and I didn't reply to it first.

No, No, not blaming just gratitude.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I've got no doubt that many women (past and present) have very real challenges in relation to the way they are viewed and treated by men in the workplace. But really, other than your own personal example, which was apparently a sudden, unexpected occurrence, don't those examples sound more like systemic discrimination, misogyny or even just plain old cronyism? (Especially the example by @rigs32 - totally sounds like the "old boy's club".) I guess we'll never know, but I'd love to know how many of the men involved shared a value with their wives of not spending social time with members of the opposite sex.

I think that as long as men and women think this is okay and perfectly acceptable, it will be used as an excuse and a cover for systemic discrimination, misogyny and cronyism.

 

[CrankyDad]

I think it is 100% fine. My wife does and I do. Not a big deal. If you are covering it up or not being up front, maybe that would be an issue.

 

[NFLDERS]

She is pretty focused on it though.

She's (kimblebee) my mentor, and at times I (occasionally?) her tormentor. lol

 

[CarolAnn856]

Of course this is just my opinion. I think regardless whether it is for work or whatever reason do not think it is a good idea. The attraction between a male and female is extremely dangerous and before you say well I love my spouse too much to do that. Talk to others that have said the same thing but fell into the pit of adultery. I am a Christian man and very well versed in scripture and in real life situations. I think you might be surprised of what you think you have control of, or how a man or women can be enticed to do thru the wearing down of another's aggressive pressing (if that person wants it)
Too many biblical examples for me too play around or put myself in a situation that can get out of hand due to our nature and make up
Read about David and Samson.
Before you say well maybe you don't trust yourself or Love your wife enough. I will say this I love my wife way too much to do it.
No opportunity, No Regret !
God Bless

I've asked this before but nobody answered, so maybe you'll take a shot at it.

Why does it seem that adultery is the only thing certain groups seems to believe they need to safeguard against? I am aware of some people who believe as you do who go hunting with friends. Are they not worried that, if they have an argument with someone in their hunting party, they might be led down the path of committing murder? Some people with the above mindset work in retail or banking. Are they not concerned about being tempted to steal, and therefore should find different employment? After all, no opportunity, no regret could apply to the other commandments, too, right? I genuinely do not see why there is such a huge focus on adultery and not the other commandments / temptations.