Has anything gotten BETTER over time?

[sssteele]

When free soda in one park and website improvement are the top answers to what is better, you have your answer right there.

Annual Passes!!!

 

[RoseGold]

There are a lot of FREE things Disney could do that would add a lot of value. Buy event tickets a day early, book dining a day early, make a secret, expensive merch section you have to log in for, pay for a dark pink magic band welcome scan, sell a DVC trader Sam’s cocktail...

 

[Bjaiken77]

It's worth thinking about what a sales agent---not just at DVC, but anywhere---actually does.

The agent's job is to help the customer construct a narrative as to why this widget is worth buying. It's almost never the case that the buyer needs the widget, but the agent is not about to point that out. It is not the sales agent's job to explain why the buyer might not want the widget. But, a good agent can do all of this---construct a positive narrative and avoid a negative one---without actually relying on the buyer's narrative being factually untrue.

A somewhat less-scrupulous agent will knowingly allow a customer to come to an incorrect conclusion without disabusing them of that notion. An agent with even fewer scruples might construct a narrative that, given sufficient motivation on the part of the buyer, will lead the buyer to that incorrect conclusion without the agent actually saying it out loud. The more motivated the buyer (to "save money," for example) the easier this is.

In almost any sales organization, agents are measured on how well they convert prospects to sales. In some---including DVC---the agents are paid in part in proportion to how much they sell. Human nature being what it is, agents in such organizations are likely to get closer and closer to whatever line they have that they don't want to cross. Over time, it is likely that that line will also move.



The same is true of the organization itself: it will drift closer to (and farther across) those various lines unless leadership is spending conscious effort to counteract this drift. And, leadership might not be inclined to do that, depending on how they are measured by the organization.

In other words (and to mis-quote the the Stand-Up Economist): People respond to incentives because incentives are things that move people to action.

I agree with this 100%. There is no motivation to be completely forthright other than integrity and looking out for the member’s best interest. Therefore, it’s fair game to criticize Disney, as a company, when they act without integrity and in their own best interest.

The sales analogy of the widget holds up for people on the front line, however, if I’m a Disney executive, I might want to remember that I’m in the business of selling customer experiences. I mean, selling the “magic” is essentially their business model.

 

[Bjaiken77]

There are a lot of FREE things Disney could do that would add a lot of value. Buy event tickets a day early, book dining a day early, make a secret, expensive merch section you have to log in for, pay for a dark pink magic band welcome scan, sell a DVC trader Sam’s cocktail...

+1

 

[DonMacGregor]

I agree with this 100%. There is no motivation to be completely forthright other than integrity and looking out for the members best interest. Therefore, it’s fair game to criticize Disney, as a company, when they act without integrity and in their own best interest.

The sales analogy of the widget holds up for people on the front line, however, if I’m a Disney executive, I might want to remember that I’m in the business of selling customer experiences. I mean, selling the “magic” is essentially their business model.

I'm absolutely not trying to be negative, or cast aspersions on any DVD Guides, but the looseness of the perks program and the lack of guarantee (understanding that there IS transparency) re: type, duration, etc., gives such a huge amount of latitude in how a salesperson (Guide) pitches the product.

 

[Brian Noble]

I agree with this 100%. [...] it’s fair game to criticize Disney, as a company, when they act without integrity and in their own best interest.

Then you don't agree with me 100%. You should expect the company to act in their own best interests. I suppose you can also criticize them, but that's like criticizing gravity for keeping you firmly planted to earth.

As for the "integrity" piece: I do not believe even the most ethical Guide is obligated to explain that e.g. the AP discount can come and go, unless they observe the customer clearly assuming it is guaranteed.

if I’m a Disney executive, I might want to remember that I’m in the business of selling customer experiences. I mean, selling the “magic” is essentially their business model.

This is an important observation. I've said this many times before, but: Disney is a company that is in the business of selling happiness. That's not the same as "Disney wants me, personally, to be happy." It is very easy to conflate the two, and many folks new to the Mouse do exactly that. It can be very disillusioning when one discovers they are different.

 

[DougEMG]

Non perk benefits that have improved are the ability to book online which was a huge benefit for me. I also really like being able to pay MF monthly from my account, not sure how long this has been in effect. A big benefit is that the rise in onsite room costs makes me feel a lot better about owning DVC.

For perks my favorites are the annual pass discount, the merch discount (although no discount might actually save me money) and the Epcot lounge. I've been to 1 Moonlight Magic which I really liked, but the odds of being at WDW when one of these events is on isn't that good. The annual pass discount is the one perk that I can't live without and the removal of it would certainly change how I vacation at WDW.

 

[upritbass]

As for the "integrity" piece:

So how many Florida real estate laws are you accusing them of breaking?

 

[CarolynFH]

For a detailed historical account of DVC perks and benefits, check out this article on www.DVCnews.com.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Then you don't agree with me 100%. You should expect the company to act in their own best interests. I suppose you can also criticize them, but that's like criticizing gravity for keeping you firmly planted to earth.

As for the "integrity" piece: I do not believe even the most ethical Guide is obligated to explain that e.g. the AP discount can come and go, unless they observe the customer clearly assuming it is guaranteed.


This is an important observation. I've said this many times before, but: Disney is a company that is in the business of selling happiness. That's not the same as "Disney wants me, personally, to be happy." It is very easy to conflate the two, and many folks new to the Mouse do exactly that. It can be very disillusioning when one discovers they are different.

I do expect sales reps to act according to incentivized money making. I expect Disney executives to oversee the process and make sure their sales reps are acting ethically and not just chasing commissions but being honest and forthright with the members. I expect Disney to see the big picture and prioritize long term business over short term gains. I’m aware Disney is a business, but they better be interested in my happiness and the happiness of others. Otherwise, their type of business goes out of business. Their prioritization of consumer happiness and experience is what has allowed them to build their business.

 

[Drew729]

Sometimes I feel like there is a disconnect as to what owning DVC actually is.

Base level- ownership interest that hopefully provides a discount on future vacations. Are we partners with Disney in ownership? I would say yes.

Are we partners on anything else? I would say no. My belief is that that the line between partner and consumer starts with any perks/ extras offered.

 

[davidl81]

That isn't a plus to everyone. Increased membership is one of the reasons the DVC magic doesn't scale.

I think the addition of Aluani to the DVC system is a huge win for us Being able to use points at Aulani on non WDW years has been great for us. It is a better value that trading out into RCI for a Hawaii timeshare. We have stayed in Hawaii several times and for a family with younger kids (ours are 8 and 5 now) Aulani is absolutely perfect. If it was just DW and I that would change where we would want to stay, but part of the reason we bought DVC was with kids in mind.

 

[Bjaiken77]

I think the addition of Aluani to the DVC system is a huge win for us Being able to use points at Aulani on non WDW years has been great for us. It is a better value that trading out into RCI for a Hawaii timeshare. We have stayed in Hawaii several times and for a family with younger kids (ours are 8 and 5 now) Aulani is absolutely perfect. If it was just DW and I that would change where we would want to stay, but part of the reason we bought DVC was with kids in mind.

good one!!! I agree with this totally. I am looking forward to the day i can take my SSR points and book Aulani at the 7 month mark.

 

[crisi]

I think the addition of Aluani to the DVC system is a huge win for us Being able to use points at Aulani on non WDW years has been great for us. It is a better value that trading out into RCI for a Hawaii timeshare. We have stayed in Hawaii several times and for a family with younger kids (ours are 8 and 5 now) Aulani is absolutely perfect. If it was just DW and I that would change where we would want to stay, but part of the reason we bought DVC was with kids in mind.

Its certainly a benefit to some. But it isn't universal.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Its certainly a benefit to some. But it isn't universal.

Isn’t that kind of the tricky part of measuring improvement and perks? Rarely is something universally approved or a benefit to everyone. I think the goal needs to be the greatest amount of good to the greatest number of people. I think most people approve of Aulani being in network.

 

[Carol_]

That’s my point exactly. Besides, never in the history of message board posts has anyone received a positive response by saying “didn’t you read the documents before signing?” You have two possible scenarios: 1) someone didn’t read the contract or understand and feels awful right now or 2) the person did read the contract, understands it, and is trying to make a larger point. Either way, it’s an antagonistic comment.

And you are highlighting my larger point. Regardless of what the contract says, if you promote perks on your website, use them as a tactic to reel people in, AND aren’t equally as forthright in the sales pitch that you should focus strictly on the timeshare, I find that to be dishonest advertising. That’s just my opinion.

My experiences were that when we sat down with DVC, we were very clearly told what was included and what was fluff. We were still thrilled to sign contracts fully knowing even the fun pools aren’t necessarily included.
(When Armageddon hit, and the feature pools weren’t necessarily open while DVC was, I booked a nearby resort with fun pools, and saved my points.)
All this to say, my salespeople were “equally as forthright.” Now, whether people hear what is said to them is a different story.

 

[mgarbowski]

That isn't a plus to everyone. Increased membership is one of the reasons the DVC magic doesn't scale.

I think this lies at the heart of the entire discussion.
There are many things Disney could offer to DVC members only when members were a tiny percentage of resort guests. Meanwhile DIsney has not only been building new DVC resorts recently. They increasingly convert cash rooms to DVC (which affects both sides of the ratio) and have not built a new cash hotel in several years. All of this has just increased the ratio of DVC guests to all other onsite guests. Some perks do scale fairly well but offering major ticket discounts to DVC members does not when a larger and larger share of all park guests (and even more so of resort guests) are DVC members.

Also, the growth in membership occasioned by new resorts is also, at best, a mixed benefit/harm for existing members. Someone pointed out how much they value the ability to use DVC points in Hawaii at Aulani, and no doubt that is a great benefit to many. But Aulani generally is under used even by people who own there and this has contributed to the availability squeeze at all other DVC resorts. Similarly, someone pointed out how they like to stay at the Poly bungalows and Copper Creek cabins and again, they are wonderful, but they also are under used by owners at those resorts due to massive point requirements so this also contributes to the system wide availability squeeze (which to be fair that post acknowledged - I'm not looking to argue).

Another reason the expansions generate diminishing returns for existing members is point inflation (separate from point price inflation) as each new resort generally has higher point charts per average room night than previous resorts. When we bought DVC 10 years ago we made some mistakes in the particulars and also did some things right, and one thing we did right was to buy more points than we needed for our typical annual stay back then. This has given my family the flexibility to try many of the new resorts that have come on line in the last decade, but I think we've just about reached the end of that cushion, and many families don't have that cushion to begin with. This means that to stay at new resorts long time owners either have to (1) go less often, (2) take shorter trips, or (3) add on. Now, not being able to stay at new resorts does not harm me or other long term members, as we can still stay at numerous resorts without any reduction in anything, but it's also fair to say that at some point the new resorts with higher point charts don't add much to our experience either.

Finally, as Disney has expanded DVC membership while raising point costs they have had to reduce the minimum contract size in order to keep the potential buyers pool at a size that generates sufficient sales. I think it started at 230, then was 160 for a long time, and at some point was as low as 75, though I believe it currently is 100. Note I am referring to the minimum initial contract buy, not the amount needed for blue card perks. The influx of low point contracts puts extra stress on studio availability, for which I do not blame those owners but do think DVC management made decisions that benefit DIsney rather than membership as a whole.

With all that I probably sound more negative in this post than I am. I have no regrets about my purchase at all. In fact I am very pleased to have done so and believe it enhanced my family vacation experiences measurably and we have gotten great value. I think overall it is a solid program despite some reduction in benefits over time (and much of that is really part of Disney increased corporate focus on maximizing revenue per guest trip rather than specific DVC issues). But I did think it worth stressing that the expansions and conversions that have grown DVC so much in the last several years have not provided clear cut benefits to existing members. At best they probably balance benefits to some members with costs (usually in the form of reduced availability) to others. Which makes it kind of like the FP+ debate now that I think about it.

 

[crisi]

Isn’t that kind of the tricky part of measuring improvement and perks? Rarely is something universally approved or a benefit to everyone. I think the goal needs to be the greatest amount of good to the greatest number of people. I think most people approve of Aulani being in network.

The AP discount you are talking about is a good example. When we bought, the discount was on hoppers. And for the way our family travels, it was great. We only do Disney every other year and usually for a fairly short stay. In 20 years of ownership, our family of four has owned a total of two annual passes - my husband took his brother a year we were going, which put him in AP territory, and I had a business trip that had me near property, and spent a few extra days - that put me over. But in general, the AP discount has been useless to us - where the hopper discount we did use and would have continued to use.

The goal isn't the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of people. The goal is what DISNEY thinks is good. And "better" is relative to each individual. I don't "approve" or "disapprove" of Aulani being in the network. I do disapprove, for a number of reasons, of Disney continuing to add resorts. (As a shareholder, they are prioritizing short term gains - its an awesome financial strategy, but its not going to help the long term "happiness" factor for their customer base - and I think they are overbuilding in a fashion that won't be supportable long term)

 

[TeamRiley]

I think DVC has been awesome for us. We live in the west, and own at VGC and Aulani. Over the years I have realized that staying at VGC has totally spoiled us compared to any other DVC resort. WDW is great, but not ever having to take a bus or boat or any transportation ever is genuinely awesome. One a magic morning, we can get up, step straight into the park, and ride 5 or 6 of the very best rides before they let anyone else in.

All this being said, I do think that a lot of DVC members do have a feeling that they are more special than other guests, and Disney somehow OWEs them something extra. If you have that mindset, you will end up disappointed .

Many people here have mentioned something along the lines of this quote:

"Overall the Disney experience has diminished in the last decade. However, they still pull in millions of guests who don't know how much better things were "back in the day" when Disney cared about guest experience first and foremost rather than pure profit. "

Part of that is true, but we all need to remember things may have been better in our memories, but the average guest expectation has changed as well. The other thing that has changed is that in the last 20 years Disney has become a major World Wide attraction. Not just a US thing.

We are super happy to have bought into DVC. Things always change. The popularity of DVC is enormous, and everyone needs to remember that there are literally 1000s of people that would gladly buy your points at current prices. When sales are up, perks are down. That is just how it goes.

 

[Brian Noble]

we all need to remember things may have been better in our memories

It's also worth considering how accurate those rosy memories are. This is definitely an aside, but I've been doing a lot of "armchair quarterback" reading in the general space of neuroscience and psychology over the past few years. One of the lessons of the last decade or two in that space is we really don't understand how our own personal brains work, and the stories we tell ourselves about why we do things and what we remember are generally just fiction.