Does anyone think that maybe Michael Jackson was murdered?

I believe it was Manslaughter. The doctor should have known better. He took an oath. He violated that oath. He's not properly trained to even administer that drug. The doctor also dropped the ball by waiting 30 MINUTES to call for help. That is a lifetime in that situation. MJ might have been saved had he called for help right away. This doctor is guilty.
 
I believe it was Manslaughter. The doctor should have known better. He took an oath. He violated that oath. He's not properly trained to even administer that drug. The doctor also dropped the ball by waiting 30 MINUTES to call for help. That is a lifetime in that situation. MJ might have been saved had he called for help right away. This doctor is guilty.

Michael Jackson is guilty too.
 
He should have gone for help, but the thing with addicts is that most don't think they need help. Just like someone with some other mental illness thinks they are perfectly fine.

Addiction is a horrible thing to live with and just because one addict gets help and all is well, doesn't mean the same will happen for another. And even the addict or alcoholic who did get help, may start using again tomorrow.

With MJ, you have someone who is an addict. This addict, more than likely does not admit that he is an addict so there is strike one of getting help. His addictions are pain killers and this medication that put him to sleep; he is really in pain (all addicts to pain killers are) and he really cannot sleep--in his mind he needs this drugs, so is not an addict. Strike two on getting help. On top of all this, he has an MD who is sitting there ready, willing and able to give him the drugs he "needs". (thousands of addicts say everyday, "I'm not addicted, my dr. gives me this medication")Strike three on getting help.

This dr. did not act as a dr. should. This dr. should have been getting MJ the help he needed, instead he caused his death.
 
Michael Jackson is guilty too.

The bottom line is the doctor violated his oath and did something unethical. Then he waited too long to call for help. Regardless of what Michael Jackson was asking him to do he knew he was not trained nor authorized to give that drug. He is the one that administered the drug that ultimately ended Michael Jackson's life.
 

He should have gone for help, but the thing with addicts is that most don't think they need help. Just like someone with some other mental illness thinks they are perfectly fine.

Addiction is a horrible thing to live with and just because one addict gets help and all is well, doesn't mean the same will happen for another. And even the addict or alcoholic who did get help, may start using again tomorrow.

With MJ, you have someone who is an addict. This addict, more than likely does not admit that he is an addict so there is strike one of getting help. His addictions are pain killers and this medication that put him to sleep; he is really in pain (all addicts to pain killers are) and he really cannot sleep--in his mind he needs this drugs, so is not an addict. Strike two on getting help. On top of all this, he has an MD who is sitting there ready, willing and able to give him the drugs he "needs". (thousands of addicts say everyday, "I'm not addicted, my dr. gives me this medication")Strike three on getting help.

This dr. did not act as a dr. should. This dr. should have been getting MJ the help he needed, instead he caused his death.

:thumbsup2 ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!
 
OT:
An acquaintance went to the memorial.... and gave me the program today!!!
Oh it's really special. I'm keeping it forever :hug:
 
The doctor should not have administered the meds. However, he would not have administered the drug if MJ didn't want it.
If this doctor had not administered the drug, MJ would have found someone else to do it. That's what junkies do
.

It is not ok. Did you miss the part where I posted: "The doctor should not have administered the meds."? .

Yes but I also saw where there was what I saw as an excuse made for the doctor. Sorry if I am reading it wrong. :flower3:
For me, I cant think of any reason that doc could give for making it OK. He was totally irresponsible giving him that drug, and the way he handled the situation afterwards may have even been worse.

If he didnt think his actions sucked, he wouldnt have run away and let his patient leave in an ambulance without him there.

I'm really not here to argue. Just to talk. None of us were there so we only know what we hear.... which may or may not be true.
 
He should have gone for help, but the thing with addicts is that most don't think they need help. Just like someone with some other mental illness thinks they are perfectly fine.

Addiction is a horrible thing to live with and just because one addict gets help and all is well, doesn't mean the same will happen for another. And even the addict or alcoholic who did get help, may start using again tomorrow.

With MJ, you have someone who is an addict. This addict, more than likely does not admit that he is an addict so there is strike one of getting help. His addictions are pain killers and this medication that put him to sleep; he is really in pain (all addicts to pain killers are) and he really cannot sleep--in his mind he needs this drugs, so is not an addict. Strike two on getting help. On top of all this, he has an MD who is sitting there ready, willing and able to give him the drugs he "needs". (thousands of addicts say everyday, "I'm not addicted, my dr. gives me this medication")Strike three on getting help.

This dr. did not act as a dr. should. This dr. should have been getting MJ the help he needed, instead he caused his death.

I read your post on the alcoholic thread, so I know you have had some experience. I have too. Every one of the people that I know or have known with substance abuse problems knew they had a problem. Whether they were willing to work on it was a different matter.

My ex SIL was addicted to pain killlers. When she broke her shin, she was in pain. After she healed, she wasn't- her words. However, she liked the feeling she had when she was on the pain medicine, so she went to doctors all over our town and neighboring towns getting doctors to give her pain killers. Then she decided she didn't like feeling so groggy all the time, so she found different doctors who gave her diet pills. She had her act down pat. My BIL begged her to get help. She went to rehab but wouldn't follow through. Notice I said ex SIL? Do I blame the doctors? No. Do I blame her husband? No. I blame her because she had the opportunity to get help but was too stupid to take it. Michael had the money to get hep but didn't.

I understand some people are upset that MJ died but that doesn't change the fact that when he should have acted responsibly.

If your neighbor had 3 kids and had a doctor living with them to pump them full of anesthesia to sleep, would you give them a pass? If you found out they were taking 100s if not 1000s of pills a month would that be ok?
 
I read your post on the alcoholic thread, so I know you have had some experience. I have too. Every one of the people that I know or have known with substance abuse problems knew they had a problem. Whether they were willing to work on it was a different matter.

My ex SIL was addicted to pain killlers. When she broke her shin, she was in pain. After she healed, she wasn't- her words. However, she liked the feeling she had when she was on the pain medicine, so she went to doctors all over our town and neighboring towns getting doctors to give her pain killers. Then she decided she didn't like feeling so groggy all the time, so she found different doctors who gave her diet pills. She had her act down pat. My BIL begged her to get help. She went to rehab but wouldn't follow through. Notice I said ex SIL? Do I blame the doctors? No. Do I blame her husband? No. I blame her because she had the opportunity to get help but was too stupid to take it. Michael had the money to get hep but didn't.

I understand some people are upset that MJ died but that doesn't change the fact that when he should have acted responsibly.

If your neighbor had 3 kids and had a doctor living with them to pump them full of anesthesia to sleep, would you give them a pass? If you found out they were taking 100s if not 1000s of pills a month would that be ok?

It's not that people don't understand that. It's that a doctor administered this drug to him. That to me makes it a little different. If he had simply taken too many pills and overdosed I would feel differently. A doctor only has so much control over that. This doctor was (most likely) the very person that administered this drug to Michael Jackson. That's why I hold him responsible. Not only that but the 30 minute lag in calling for help when he realized something was wrong. That is very disturbing to me. I don't care who it is, it's just wrong. Doesn't matter to me if it's Michael Jackson or the neighbor down the street that I don't know. It's just wrong. Should he have gotten help for his addiction? Yes. That doesn't give a doctor the right to administer a drug knowing it could kill him and that is totally against his oath and obligation. That's where I draw the line.
 
I read your post on the alcoholic thread, so I know you have had some experience. I have too. Every one of the people that I know or have known with substance abuse problems knew they had a problem. Whether they were willing to work on it was a different matter.

My ex SIL was addicted to pain killlers. When she broke her shin, she was in pain. After she healed, she wasn't- her words. However, she liked the feeling she had when she was on the pain medicine, so she went to doctors all over our town and neighboring towns getting doctors to give her pain killers. Then she decided she didn't like feeling so groggy all the time, so she found different doctors who gave her diet pills. She had her act down pat. My BIL begged her to get help. She went to rehab but wouldn't follow through. Notice I said ex SIL? Do I blame the doctors? No. Do I blame her husband? No. I blame her because she had the opportunity to get help but was too stupid to take it. Michael had the money to get hep but didn't.

I understand some people are upset that MJ died but that doesn't change the fact that when he should have acted responsibly.

If your neighbor had 3 kids and had a doctor living with them to pump them full of anesthesia to sleep, would you give them a pass? If you found out they were taking 100s if not 1000s of pills a month would that be ok?

No, it wouldn't be ok for the person nor would it be ok for the dr that was giving them the pills or the anesthesia. There comes a point when the dr. knows he is contributing to the addiction, he is no longer a healer but an enabler.

I agree that there is a certain amount of responsibility to the addict. And MJ certainly had the ability to get any kind of help that he felt necessary for his addictions. But, the point at which the dr. begins to hold the majority of the blame passed long ago. MJ was too far gone in his addiction to be able to do much of anything on his own, imho.

I liken so much of what went on with MJ to what happened to Elvis. (your ex-sil's story reminded me a bit of his story too) I remember one of Elvis's friends saying that Elvis thought he was safe with his pills because he taught himself all about them and was very careful about what he took, when and how much and always saw his dr. for the meds. MJ may have felt a certain amount of safety because a medical doctor was giving him the meds.

Sadly, his dr. had become nothing but a well educated drug dealer and in my opinion all drug dealers should be charged with murder.

I am not disagreeing with you that MJ was responsible for his own life, to a point. I just think that the dr. did not act professionally and contributed to MJ's death. He was a trusted person and he violated that trust by endangering this man's life.
 
yes he has beautiful kids but I say suicide (possibly) because everything that came out with the resusitation. If he were a sain man I would say noooooooooooooooo he would NOT want to leave those wonderful babies. But it sounds to me like he was an adict on the edge. And with a lot of help. So weather it was assisted suicide or murder, they should be punished all the same I think. He wasn't in his right mind obviously especially as of late :( Gosh is he really dead??? Are we REALLY talking about him like this...
 
He should have gone for help, but the thing with addicts is that most don't think they need help. Just like someone with some other mental illness thinks they are perfectly fine.

Addiction is a horrible thing to live with and just because one addict gets help and all is well, doesn't mean the same will happen for another. And even the addict or alcoholic who did get help, may start using again tomorrow.

With MJ, you have someone who is an addict. This addict, more than likely does not admit that he is an addict so there is strike one of getting help. His addictions are pain killers and this medication that put him to sleep; he is really in pain (all addicts to pain killers are) and he really cannot sleep--in his mind he needs this drugs, so is not an addict. Strike two on getting help. On top of all this, he has an MD who is sitting there ready, willing and able to give him the drugs he "needs". (thousands of addicts say everyday, "I'm not addicted, my dr. gives me this medication")Strike three on getting help.

This dr. did not act as a dr. should. This dr. should have been getting MJ the help he needed, instead he caused his death.

ITA! the problem with prescription meds is that they last so long, but keep the addict in a constant state, unlike street drugs or alcohol where people are more on a roller coaster. So they really have more effect on your day-to-day judgement than many other substances. And with any addiction, you're either high/drunk or craving the substance -- neither state is conducive to rational thinking.

Add to that the fact that every adult around him was probably in a state of denial, if not of his drug use but certainly the extent of it -- somebody should have thrown him in a limo and dropped him off at Dr. Drew's, but they didn't

Enter the doctor, the one person who was mandated by law to look out for his health, the one person who should have known the extent of his drug abuse, and the only person who could have administered the propofol (which, by the way, he did without any safeguards although he would have known they were necessary).

So...is a bartender allowed to serve another drink to somebody who is obviously way over their limit, even if they're being offered a huge tip? No. Why would we expect any less self-control from a doctor?

It's not that people don't understand that. It's that a doctor administered this drug to him. That to me makes it a little different. If he had simply taken too many pills and overdosed I would feel differently. A doctor only has so much control over that. This doctor was (most likely) the very person that administered this drug to Michael Jackson. That's why I hold him responsible. Not only that but the 30 minute lag in calling for help when he realized something was wrong. That is very disturbing to me. I don't care who it is, it's just wrong. Doesn't matter to me if it's Michael Jackson or the neighbor down the street that I don't know. It's just wrong. Should he have gotten help for his addiction? Yes. That doesn't give a doctor the right to administer a drug knowing it could kill him and that is totally against his oath and obligation. That's where I draw the line.

The more I hear about this doctor, the more he scares me. He called himself a cardiologist -- he wasn't one. He operated a clinic in Texas which is known as a "pill mill" (a new word in my vocabulary). His partner just had his license reinstated after he was proven to be overprescribing narcotics and had it revoked for 2 or 3 years, during which time MJ's doctor took over his patients.

And nobody, nobody, nobody, would do CPR on a bed.

But since he actually is a trained physician he will be held to a higher standard than another person -- he gave MJ a drug illegally knowing that it could cause death, he gave him the drug even though he didn't have the assistance and equipment required to prevent his death, and he did nothing effect when he knew his patient was in trouble. As a pp said, the Dr. was probably more concerned with covering up his own actions once he knew something was wrong than preventing MJ's death.

IMO, this is criminal behaviour -- no different than a person being hit by an ambulance driver and the driver leaves the victim to die in the street (knowing full well what the outcome will be) -- it doesn't even really matter whether the victim was intoxicated or sober, since the fact is they would not have died had they not been hit. When you really think about it, MJ's life would have been in much better hands with one of us than with that Dr. :scared1:
 
I have so many different opinions on this...

I just don't know. I mostly suspect foul play on behalf of AEG. I don't think that they were very upfront with the fact that Michael needed to do 50 concerts.
I don't think Michael thought he would make it. So for them to push him so hard, if he really was ill, is just wrong.

Now about the doctor, and the deprivan.
I refuse to believe Michael was addicted to these drugs purely on his own terms. I do think that he had trouble sleeping but it is also a doctors place to step in.
If Michael really would "demand more" and "assume different names" he should have been reported.

To be honest I am waiting for the autopsy report, because in my heart of hearts, I hope that Michael wouldn't do that hardcore of prescription drugs while his children were with him.
Deprivan really messes you up, I wouldn't want to wake up to my father on that drug.
 
OT:
An acquaintance went to the memorial.... and gave me the program today!!!
Oh it's really special. I'm keeping it forever :hug:

Oh my gosh - that's wonderful!!! What a very special gift your friend gave you. :goodvibes

Yes, I'm a wee bit jealous, too! :laughing:
 
yes, yes he was.

and we will hear every little detail over and over and over and over

until they acquit the people they charged, rule it an accidental death, and move on.

so..

no, no he wasn't!
 
yes, yes he was.

and we will hear every little detail over and over and over and over

until they acquit the people they charged, rule it an accidental death, and move on.

so..

no, no he wasn't!

If the doctor was involved, it can't be ruled an accidental death -- it would be very difficult to prove that he used due diligence if his patient accidentally died.

The only way the doctor could get off is if his patient died of natural causes, coincidentally right after he had given him medication. But it's my understanding that natural causes have already been ruled out which is why they're waiting for the toxicology report and the results of the examination of his brain.
 
Every day new twists come out. I am anxiously awaiting the toxicology results. I feel more and more every day that Dr. Murray is responsible for MJ's death. If even a quarter of what the media is reporting is correct then that doctor (and I use that term loosely) is in BIG trouble. :sad2:
 
Every day new twists come out. I am anxiously awaiting the toxicology results. I feel more and more every day that Dr. Murray is responsible for MJ's death. If even a quarter of what the media is reporting is correct then that doctor (and I use that term loosely) is in BIG trouble. :sad2:

If I were him, I'd be on a plane right now, or getting a bodyguard, or both. :scared1:
 












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