An end to tipping?

[OceanAnnie]

That's why I put my flame suit on when I started this thread. I knew just QUESTIONING tips would result in accusations that I'm cheap, don't tip, or otherwise disrespect servers.

I *DO* tip every time I go out, usually 18-20%. But that doesn't matter apparently.

It's a VERY touchy subject.

OT- The boards seem extremely slow today!

Must.do.something.productive. I'm outta here.

 

[mrodgers]

But you're only counting the time the server is in the restaurant actually serving guests. You're not adding in the 1.5 hrs beforehand setting up, or the hour afterwards cleaning up or the very beginning of the night or very end of the night when everyone is standing around for 1 or 2 tables. Where I used to work (at a hotel that served breakfast/dinner only) all staff were in the restaurant for the time between breakfast and dinner doing the weekly type stuff like changing out the fresh flowers, polishing the silver, cleaning the ceiling fans and so on. You can't look at the tips earned on a busy Saturday night, without looking at the slow Wednesday night.
Is it higher than minimum wage? Sure, but not significantly higher unless you decide to work your way up the ranks to the higher end restaurants or extremely popular restaurants - and those jobs aren't easy to get. The people who get those jobs (and make an incredible amount of money) are the true professionals, with great people skills, an ability to multi task flawlessly, and have a skill. They're not just grabbing orders and dropping off food.

I don't care what they are doing before hours or when they are just standing around (that is called "not working" and I don't get paid to just stand around and not work...) I am in the restaurant for about 45 minutes with my family and the staff is doing a job for me for that 45 minutes. They are working for someone else if I am not in the establishment as a customer. For that 45 minutes that I am a customer, if I eat a meal that is $60 for my family and I tip 20%, the waitress made $16/hour ($12 for 3/4 of an hour of work) from my family at the time of service. That is significantly more than minimum wage and still more than most "regular" jobs pay.

In reality, the tip % calculation should be: minimum wage X hours of service / meal cost. That gets the staff minimum wage for the time they are there working for you as the customer and anything above that would be a tip for exceptional service. In the example of a $60 meal, that gets the server 9% tip for wage, or $5.40 for 45 minutes worth of work, which equates to $7.25 (I think) minimum wage that is here where I am. Anything beyond that is an actual tip for exceptional service.

By the government taxing staff with the expectation of getting 15% tips, that means that the government has set the minimum income for waitressing at a higher income than minimum wage.

 

[sbell111]

By the government taxing staff with the expectation of getting 15% tips, that means that the government has set the minimum income for waitressing at a higher income than minimum wage.

Don't believe everything that you read on disboards. As explained in this IRS publication, servers are taxed based on their actual amount of tips that they report to their employer and to the IRS.

 

[Acklander]

I don't care what they are doing before hours or when they are just standing around (that is called "not working" and I don't get paid to just stand around and not work...) I am in the restaurant for about 45 minutes with my family and the staff is doing a job for me for that 45 minutes. They are working for someone else if I am not in the establishment as a customer. For that 45 minutes that I am a customer, if I eat a meal that is $60 for my family and I tip 20%, the waitress made $16/hour ($12 for 3/4 of an hour of work) from my family at the time of service. That is significantly more than minimum wage and still more than most "regular" jobs pay.In reality, the tip % calculation should be: minimum wage X hours of service / meal cost. That gets the staff minimum wage for the time they are there working for you as the customer and anything above that would be a tip for exceptional service. In the example of a $60 meal, that gets the server 9% tip for wage, or $5.40 for 45 minutes worth of work, which equates to $7.25 (I think) minimum wage that is here where I am.
Bwage.

Why does't the work they do to prepare for you to come in not count towards their hours worked? If you're going to figure out their hourly wage based on the tips, you take the total tips earned (after tipping out to others) divided by the hours worked on the job. That average is what they earn per hour. Is it more than minimum wage? Sure, unless you're a really crappy wait person or work in a close to a fast food type place. I've never thought of being a wait person as a minimum wage job. There are a lot easier jobs you can get for minimum wage. But I wouldn't put it up there with earns more than most other jobs either.

 

[pacrosby]

Why does't the work they do to prepare for you to come in not count towards their hours worked? If you're going to figure out their hourly wage based on the tips, you take the total tips earned (after tipping out to others) divided by the hours worked on the job. That average is what they earn per hour. Is it more than minimum wage? Sure, unless you're a really crappy wait person or work in a close to a fast food type place. I've never thought of being a wait person as a minimum wage job. There are a lot easier jobs you can get for minimum wage. But I wouldn't put it up there with earns more than most other jobs either.

How much a waiter/waitress makes depends entirely on where they work. It can be a pretty lousy paying job or it can be a pretty good paying job...especially if it's a second job or a temporary job. I worked as such during graduate school. Made great money working at a function facility for weddings etc. We'd be in there for 4-5 hours and get paid 150 dollars or more. When I worked in bars and nightclubs in college I did almost as well. IMO giving them a straight wage is only going to be a good idea for the waitstaff working in the run of the mill restaurants. Like anything else...if you want to make more money, go where the money is. And if you don't want to make the effort to do what needs to be done, don't take everyone else down with you.

 

[sbell111]

Why does't the work they do to prepare for you to come in not count towards their hours worked?

Because the amount tipped is based on the experience given to that table, just like the person wouldn't be tipped based on whether they worked on days that you didn't come into the restaurant or based on the service that other customers are receiving. Similarly, special dispensation isn't figured into a tip if a server has worked a long shift or a short one or has been 'cut' and is attempting to do their side work, to the detriment of the customers who they are still expected to 'serve'.

 

[sbell111]

... Like anything else...if you want to make more money, go where the money is. And if you don't want to make the effort to do what needs to be done, don't take everyone else down with you.

No better argument against tipping regardless of service quality has ever been written.

 

[Erin1700]

Do you think there are people who dont tip at all? My friend and I were talking about this because she used to work in a restaurant. She said every now and then people would not leave a tip. Do you think they forgot? were angry at something yet never spoke up? or just dont feel the need to tip?

 

[rotlex]

I'd be happy if Disney would just include the tip in the dining plan again! Jeez, I HATE tipping at Disney when I've already paid for the dining plan!

Really though. I do tip any time I go out to eat. Do I like it? No. Not at all. I really don't like the fact that I'm expected to tip the same amount whether I'm at a sit down meal or a buffet. For instance, on our last Disney trip, we had a large group at every meal. 8 people. I have NO problem paying 20% for good service. I DO have a problem with a forced 18% regardless of service, or meal type, served of buffet, just because my party is large. My plan for this year, going with 8 people again, is to simply refuse to pay the 18% at any buffet and knock it down to 10. THAT is a bunch of crap.

 

[Acklander]

Because the amount tipped is based on the experience given to that table, just like the person wouldn't be tipped based on whether they worked on days that you didn't come into the restaurant or based on the service that other customers are receiving. Similarly, special dispensation isn't figured into a tip if a server has worked a long shift or a short one or has been 'cut' and is attempting to do their side work, to the detriment of the customers who they are still expected to 'serve'.

Yes, the tip paid is based on what they do at the table. But the poster wasn't talking about what the tip paid was based on. The poster was talking about what the wait person makes per hour. If you're going to talk about how much per hour, you have to count all the hours the server works, not just the time at the table.
When a client hires me for a consulting job, I'm going to spend an hour meeting with the client for his input, I'm,going to spend 10 hours researching and doing up my report and then I'm going to spend an hour answering questions for my client. That client is going to pay me a flat rate for that report. If that client wanted to figure out how much I made per hour, he would divide the total fee by 12 hours for his answer. It would be incorrect for him to divide the fee by the 2 hours I met with him.
If you want to figure out how much a wait person makes per hour, you don't divide how much you tipped, by how long you were in the restaurant and then state that it's more than most people make per hour. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Acklander]

I'd be happy if Disney would just include the tip in the dining plan again! Jeez, I HATE tipping at Disney when I've already paid for the dining plan!

Really though. I do tip any time I go out to eat. Do I like it? No. Not at all. I really don't like the fact that I'm expected to tip the same amount whether I'm at a sit down meal or a buffet. For instance, on our last Disney trip, we had a large group at every meal. 8 people. I have NO problem paying 20% for good service. I DO have a problem with a forced 18% regardless of service, or meal type, served of buffet, just because my party is large. My plan for this year, going with 8 people again, is to simply refuse to pay the 18% at any buffet and knock it down to 10. THAT is a bunch of crap.

Then don't go to buffets. Problem solved.

 

[pacrosby]

No better argument against tipping regardless of service quality has ever been written.

Why? I'm confused. Initially I thought you were irritated at what I wrote because you believed that 'all' waitstaff should make the same amount of money.........and then of course I laughed thinking "ugh, an occupod" LOL But now I'm not so sure that was what you meant. I didn't make any comment about service quality.

 

[sbell111]

Then don't go to buffets. Problem solved.

Not if one likes to go to buffets.

 

[sbell111]

Why? Because 'all' waitstaff should make the same amount of money?

Not at all. I'm just seeing your comment as being diametrically opposed to the position of others that people should be tipped 10-15% or more even if the service was unacceptable. Your position seems to be that if these servers can't hack it at their jobs and actually give superior service, then they should find work at some location that doesn't demand good service.

You must be an occupod.

I don't know what that is.

 

[sbell111]

I didn't make any comment about service quality.

Really? I thought that that's what you were going with when you stated that if people weren't willing to put in the effort to do what needs to be done then they shouldn't bring everyone else down with them. If not service quality, what were your referring to in regards to 'the effort to do what needs to be done'?

 

[mrodgers]

Why does't the work they do to prepare for you to come in not count towards their hours worked?

Because that is the restaurant's priority, to get ready for people to come in and eat. The staff are just employees. If they don't get paid for their work, it isn't my fault. They are directly related to me when I am in the establishment being served.

If you're going to figure out their hourly wage based on the tips, you take the total tips earned (after tipping out to others) divided by the hours worked on the job. That average is what they earn per hour.[/quote]
Because as I said, I am there for 45 minutes and pay them $12 for a $60 meal. That is the time that I am paying their wages, the 45 minutes they are actively working for me. I am paying them $16/hour just for me, not including the 4 or 5 other tables they may be waiting on as well. I'm not paying them a weeks wages when I am in the restaurant. I am paying them for the 45 minutes that they are working for me.

But I wouldn't put it up there with earns more than most other jobs either.

It is my experienced when a forum is full of folks who make a decent income, collectively, that group of folks is out of touch with reality. Reality is, most jobs are $12ish per hour. This is why median income for families is around $50k/year and no one raises their own kids, because with two $12/hour jobs, $50k is about what you make in a household. That $12/hour is a good bit less than what I just paid a waitress for 45 minutes of working for me.

When a client hires me for a consulting job, I'm going to spend an hour meeting with the client for his input, I'm,going to spend 10 hours researching and doing up my report and then I'm going to spend an hour answering questions for my client. That client is going to pay me a flat rate for that report. If that client wanted to figure out how much I made per hour, he would divide the total fee by 12 hours for his answer. It would be incorrect for him to divide the fee by the 2 hours I met with him.
If you want to figure out how much a wait person makes per hour, you don't divide how much you tipped, by how long you were in the restaurant and then state that it's more than most people make per hour. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I think you are comparing apples to orange. With your client, you are working directly for the client, whether you are with him or not. You are not preparing a general report to give to all your clients, you are working with that one individual client. Waitstaff are not preparing the restaurant for me and me alone. They are preparing the restaurant for the owners to open to the public. The owners are the client at that point. I become the client when I walk in the door and cease to be the client when I walk out. During that time that I am the client, I am paying the waitress $16/hour for that 45 minutes. Thus, for me alone, they made $16/hour. If they are standing around 7 hours and 15 minutes doing nothing or they are prepping the restaurant for the owner to open, or if I am the only one to visit the restaurant for that day, their wages are not my concern. I am a client only for that 45 minutes.

 

[Acklander]

It is my experienced when a forum is full of folks who make a decent income, collectively, that group of folks is out of touch with reality. Reality is, most jobs are $12ish per hour. This is why median income for families is around $50k/year and no one raises their own kids, because with two $12/hour jobs, $50k is about what you make in a household. That $12/hour is a good bit less than what I just paid a waitress for 45 minutes of working for me.

ok, if you google for labor board statistics it shows the average wait person makes $9.80 an hour once you add in the tips. Yes, there will be people who make more than this (higher end restaurants, big cities) and there will be people who make less than this (I'd guess your breakfast type restaurants and coffee shop type places) but when all is lumped together, they average $9.80 an hour.
Maybe you don't count the time they're setting up for your arrival, but I'm sure the people working it do; and you may not count what you have to tip out to the support staff - but that time and expenses are there - you jus can't say, I'm in a restaurant and pay an 18$ tip for 45 minutes, so therefore they make over 18$ an hour. It's not accurate.

 

[pacrosby]

Not at all. I'm just seeing your comment as being diametrically opposed to the position of others that people should be tipped 10-15% or more even if the service was unacceptable. Your position seems to be that if these servers can't hack it at their jobs and actually give superior service, then they should find work at some location that doesn't demand good service.

I don't know what that is.

LOL I just thought, at first, that you were advocating for all waitstaff to be paid a similar amount regardless of where they work/how they do their job. Now I see how your comment makes sense even though it's not exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it.

I'm actually with you 100% that 15% tip is not an entitlement and I don't ever recall looking at it that way when I worked the job way back when. Sure I was only getting less than 2 bucks an hour from my employer but, in the food/beverage industry, if you want a jackpot you have to be willing to work for it. It's that "potential" to make really good fast money that makes it such a great job.

Really? I thought that that's what you were going with when you stated that if people weren't willing to put in the effort to do what needs to be done then they shouldn't bring everyone else down with them. If not service quality, what were your referring to in regards to 'the effort to do what needs to be done'?

Looks like I was kind of off track. What I was really talking about was that if someone wanted to make better money in that industry they had to search out the waitstaff posititions that they would be likely to end up making more money in. In other words....f you don't want to work late and drive any further than the local yocal family restaurant that closes at 11 pm then you need to accept the local yocal earnings that go along with it.

Truth be told, I hadn't read through all the replies so I may have not realized the track of the discussion. I thought some people were claiming that getting rid of tipping would be a good thing because then waiters/waitresses would be sure to always get paid at least minimum wage. As a result I wanted to make the point that getting rid of tipping in favor of minimum wage pay while a good thing for some, would be lousy for the wait person who had the wherewithall to go where the money generally is.

I'm sorry. Next time I'll read more replies before posting LOL

 

[MIGrandma]

Do you think there are people who dont tip at all? My friend and I were talking about this because she used to work in a restaurant. She said every now and then people would not leave a tip. Do you think they forgot? were angry at something yet never spoke up? or just dont feel the need to tip?

I think occasionally someone forgets to tip, heck I even had a customer (a local pastor) forget to pay his bill once. He was chatting with another customer and just forgot. It happens.

I worked 12 years as a waitress. Most people tipped, and most tipped well. There were a few who never tipped. Ever. I didn't understand how they could come in week after week and never tip any of us. And truthfully when I knew they were not going to tip, I didn't go "above and beyond" for them like I did with other customers. They just weren't worth my time. If they needed drink refills and a table right next to them (who I knew tipped) needed them, who do you think was going to get their refills first? I'm not saying I didn't take care of the people who didn't tip, I did take care of them and they did get drink refills, or whatever, but just not as quickly as others.

As a server I would hate to see tipping go away. I made good money working 15-20 hours a week as a server. I would not have made nearly as much if it were a minimum wage paid position. And as a customer I don't mind the tipping policy at all. If tipping went away then restaurant owners would have to pay their servers a higher wage and they would just raise the prices accordingly on the menu. We tip well, as I know serving can be a difficult job. Most times we tip 20% or more, if service was just okay they'll get 15%. If it was obvious they preferred standing around chatting with other servers and we were neglected, or if they were rude I have no problem in not leaving a tip (or a little change by the plate, so they know we didn't just "forget").

I think tipping is not really "optional" since the server generally makes $2-$3 an hour and is expected to make up the difference in tips, and I'm in the camp that thinks if you can't afford the tip don't go to a sit-down restaurant to eat, McD's is right down the road. But I do think it is "optional" in that the customer should decide how much the server is worth, whether or not they did their job well, took good care of you, were attentive but not intrusive, etc.

As for reporting our tips to the IRS, we did have to write down our tips each night when I first started there but after awhile we were just taxed on 8% of our sales and no longer had to report our tips.

 

[sbell111]

ok, if you google for labor board statistics it shows the average wait person makes $9.80 an hour once you add in the tips. Yes, there will be people who make more than this (higher end restaurants, big cities) and there will be people who make less than this (I'd guess your breakfast type restaurants and coffee shop type places) but when all is lumped together, they average $9.80 an hour.
Maybe you don't count the time they're setting up for your arrival, but I'm sure the people working it do; and you may not count what you have to tip out to the support staff - but that time and expenses are there - you jus can't say, I'm in a restaurant and pay an 18$ tip for 45 minutes, so therefore they make over 18$ an hour. It's not accurate.

The problem is that you are using statistics for all wait staff everywhere. No one is arguing that the high school kid working at Mr Gatti's makes $18 an hour. However, your position that the hypothetical server makes only $9.80 an hour doesn't pass the smell test.

This person gets two bucks an hour from his boss and is tipped $15 by one of his tables for a 45 minute meal. Presumably, he also gets tips from the other tables that he is assigned during the same period. It is simply not possible for all of this to add up to less than ten dollars per hour.

That being said, a person who doesn't earn a living wage waiting tables should look for a job that pays a living wage and not merely expect people to tip more.