An end to tipping?

[Acklander]

I wasn't talking about servers tips. I was talking about every other position where there is a base pay of minimum wage or above. Fairy godmothers in training at BBB, barbers at the barber shop, the housekeepers at the resorts, the bellhops at the resort.
I was just as much a direct impact on a guest's experience as any of those other position. So what makes them special enough to get a tip, other than it's the norm in America?

Yes, more than once I was given a tip based on making a day special for a guest. And i had to directly tell management and turn it over.

Because they are people who are serving you individually. These are positions that have always, customarily, been tipped positions. Even when there is a base of minimum wage. If you want the potential to make more than minimum wage, one way to do it is by getting a position where you can earn tips, learn to suck up to people, and hustle for the tips.
To complain about one position being considered a tipped position and one to be considered a flat hourly position is silly.
Look at sales - some are flat rate positions (I.e. Working in the mall or at wall mart) some are strictly commission (I.e car sales, real estate etc) some are a mixture of both. I'm not going to get a job selling tv's at walmart and complain that a car salesman can make a bigger commission than I do or become a real estate agent and then complain that I don't get a salary even when I haven't sold anything. You can't just demand that all real estate agents will now make minimum wage because the clerks at sears do.
Comparing the photo pass person to the person who went to barber school is apples to oranges.

 

[OceanAnnie]

There is something that I never quite understood. Why is tipping based on the amount of money you spend? I can see it if it's expensive drinks or what not because it's more involved, but based on a meal? It takes the same amount of time and effort to deliver a plate of burgers and ff as it does a gourmet plate. Seems kind of "off" to me to pay tips based on a plate of food. Just seems odd to me.

 

[Acklander]

There is something that I never quite understood. Why is tipping based on the amount of money you spend? I can see it if it's expensive drinks or what not because it's more involved, but based on a meal? It takes the same amount of time and effort to deliver a plate of burgers and ff as it does a gourmet plate. Seems kind of "off" to me to pay tips based on a plate of food. Just seems odd to me.

The finer the restaurant the more knowledge that goes into the job. It's not just knowing the menu, it's also knowing wine pairings and so on. You can't walk into a expensive restaurant and get a job. You have to work your way up to it. Just like in any profession, the better servers rise to the top. Next time you're at a fine restaurant talk to your server about the steps he/she needed to get there. What classes they've taken. You might be surprised.

 

[Hoodie]

I don't tip for rudeness. That's just not going to happen.

Additionally, this tipping thing, beyond waitstaff has really expanded IMO. Sometimes it seems everyone is in on it.

Tipping everyone and their brother is crazy. My favorite example is our local yogurt shop. It's self serve - you select your yogurt, use the machine to get it, go to the toppings bar and put your own toppings on, walk it to the cashier, put it on the scale and the cashier presses the button to calculate the weight. They used to then stick a spoon in your cup, but now the spoons are next to the scale so you get it after it's weighed. If you pay via credit/debit card you swipe it. There's a tip cup next to the cashier. Why? Am I supposed to tip based on how effectively she presses the button? She doesn't even give you the spoon anymore! It's literally a push of a button.

Tips is To Insure Proper Service. Not exceptional service, not even above average service, just proper service. My standard used to be 20% but has dropped a bit because of increased prices and my own decreased income. Still between 15-18%. If someone is really good, then the tip goes up. Someone is bad, tip goes down. I've only not left a tip while dining a couple of times and the service was well deserving of the big fat $0.

 

[OceanAnnie]

The finer the restaurant the more knowledge that goes into the job. It's not just knowing the menu, it's also knowing wine pairings and so on. You can't walk into a expensive restaurant and get a job. You have to work your way up to it. Just like in any profession, the better servers rise to the top. Next time you're at a fine restaurant talk to your server about the steps he/she needed to get there. What classes they've taken. You might be surprised.

Honestly, I wasn't even talking about the difference between establishments. I was referring to dishes in just a regular restaurant. The waitstaff doesn't have to know that much about dishes but they are paid a premium for the difference. The effort in delivery is the same.

 

[sbell111]

I would support a mandatory tip/service charge. Many people were saying that food prices would soar astronomically to make up for servers not getting tips. If there was a mandatory 15-18% service charge, it will take away a lot of the guesswork. Do it like the Carnival cruiseline - if someone is really unhappy, they can have it removed.

If 15% is expected for average service, why not just make it mandatory?

I would sooner complain to the manager and have things resolved to my satisfaction if I'm unhappy vs stiffing a waiter of his wages.

I'm not in favor of having to seek out a manager to deal with every gripe that I may have. A server knows or should know what good service is. I take it as my responsibility to reward my server for good service, but it is not my job to train my server to give good service.

Honestly, I had no idea 18-20% was the expectation until I started coming on the Dis! Here in Canada, I've always been told 10-15%.

I think that this is one of the many ways that some of the posters on these boards are out of step with the norm.

 

[mom2of2]

Honestly, I wasn't even talking about the difference between establishments. I was referring to dishes in just a regular restaurant. The waitstaff doesn't have to know that much about dishes but they are paid a premium for the difference. The effort in delivery is the same.

Servers do indeed need to know about the dishes...ALL dishes. How can we answer questions or concerns if we don't know what's in them/on them/ comes with them?? Servers are trained on the menu's and tested on them. How on earth can you sell a product if you know nothing about it??

 

[OceanAnnie]

Servers do indeed need to know about the dishes...ALL dishes. How can we answer questions or concerns if we don't know what's in them/on them/ comes with them?? Servers are trained on the menu's and tested on them. How on earth can you sell a product if you know nothing about it??

Well, there's another topic. The upsell. I have asked about the portion size and was told dishes were smaller than they were. We ended up with entirely too much food and a much larger bill.

ETA- I haven't had a lot of bad experiences. I don't have anything against servers or tipping them. I don't see how being knowledgeable about your job in a regular dining establishment warrants bigger tips on pricier dishes. I *know* it does. I tip accordingly. Just one of those things that makes *me* pause.

 

[sbell111]

Tips is To Insure Proper Service. Not exceptional service, not even above average service, just proper service.

Proper service IS exceptional service. In my opinion, too many people in this thread have it in their mind that the 'proper' service that should be rewarded is the bare minimum. They believe that the mere fact that food was eventually brought to their table should be rewarded with a large tip regardless of the employees attitude, how long it took for the food to arrive, how cold it was, whether it was at on time or properly cooked before it sat under a heat lamp for twenty minutes, or even if it was actually the correct food.

My expectation is that the server will promptly arrive at our table to take our drink order. Our drinks will then show up promptly and our meal order will be taken. Our orders will arrive at our table within a reasonable amount of time. Whoever brings it to our table will visually check it to see if it is accurate and complete. Out server will check back with us after a few minutes to see if it is to our liking. Our server will occasionally check the condition of our drinks and clear away any empty dishes. As our meals are completed, our server will enquire as to whether we would like dessert. Our check will arrive promptly. Our credit card will be taken promptly and promptly returned to us with the charge slip. The server should not try to be my friend. I do not care about his/her life. I care about my family and our food.

A server that can accomplish all of this will be rewarded. Failure to do any of the above items may be reflected in his/her tip and I may or may not bring these deficiencies to his/her attention or the manager.

 

[mjkacmom]

I worked at Disney in a strictly non tipping service position. That was photopass. I hd to bust my butt just like any other CM, make the same pay, but they get tips? What makes my job any less harder, any less demanding than cleaning a room, putting a girl's hair in a pony tail (BBB), cutting hair, taking bags to a room? What about those operating rides, cleaning the streets, checking you into a hotel, watching the pool, the train conductor (that's one of the worst), setting off fireworks, performing shows and giving out hugs. Why can't they recieve tips? Some are ensuring your safety and life, some are bringing joy to the whole family, alot more than a maid.

Servers are the only ones i tip at Disney. I busted my butt off to do my job, they can do thier own, without compensation. At least there's no room service at the Fort.

Hairdressers are a tipped position, bellboys are a tipped position, photographers are not a tipped position. When you accept a job, you take into consideration the salary. Those who work in tipped positions accept a salary, knowing to factor tips in.

 

[sbell111]

<double post deleted>

 

[sbell111]

Servers do indeed need to know about the dishes...ALL dishes. How can we answer questions or concerns if we don't know what's in them/on them/ comes with them?? Servers are trained on the menu's and tested on them. How on earth can you sell a product if you know nothing about it??

You are kind of making OA's argument. If as a server one is required to know 'everything' about all of the restaurant's food and the server is providing the same service regardless of whether a person orders a BLT or a lobster, then why shouldn't the tip be exactly the same for the two meals? Why is the price that the restauarant owner paid for the lobster to be flown in reflected in the server's tip? Why isn't the overall knowledge that the server is expecteed to have reflected in the tip for the BLT?

Imagine if the person who ordered the BLT drank a glass of water while the lobster eater drank a glass of wine. The water added nothing to the tip while the glass of wine did, even though the server did more work related to the glass of water.

 

[Acklander]

Honestly, I wasn't even talking about the difference between establishments. I was referring to dishes in just a regular restaurant. The waitstaff doesn't have to know that much about dishes but they are paid a premium for the difference. The effort in delivery is the same.

Sure They need to know the menu even in a regular restaurant. Especially in this day and age where so many have allergies. As far as the effort in delivery - don't complain on feeling that you're over tipping on the expensive items unless you're also going to make up for undertipping on the cheaper items.
When I used to waitress, I could have 2 tables side by side. One would order no apps, no desserts, the cheap item on the menu and ice water with lemon to drink. The second one might order apps, a nice bottle of wine, a good steak and share a dessert. If I gave them both fantastic service, of course I'm going to make great money on the expensive table and not so great money on the early bird special and on average I'm going to do pretty good.
If you're thinking the expensive dinner should pay a cheaper percentage would only work if you also think the early birds should pay a more expensive percentage since I'm doing about the same work.
And if you want to base it on actual among of work, tea drinkers should tip bigger than coffee drinkers and chocolate milk drinkers should tip more than plain milk drinkers.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Sure They need to know the menu even in a regular restaurant. Especially in this day and age where so many have allergies. As far as the effort in delivery - don't complain on feeling that you're over tipping on the expensive items unless you're also going to make up for undertipping on the cheaper items.
When I used to waitress, I could have 2 tables side by side. One would order no apps, no desserts, the cheap item on the menu and ice water with lemon to drink. The second one might order apps, a nice bottle of wine, a good steak and share a dessert. If I gave them both fantastic service, of course I'm going to make great money on the expensive table and not so great money on the early bird special and on average I'm going to do pretty good.
If you're thinking the expensive dinner should pay a cheaper percentage would only work if you also think the early birds should pay a more expensive percentage since I'm doing about the same work.
And if you want to base it on actual among of work, tea drinkers should tip bigger than coffee drinkers and chocolate milk drinkers should tip more than plain milk drinkers.

Huh? You are making a leap. I don't under tip. I can question the rationale for tipping based on a "plate of food" and still tip the standard. Thankyouverymuch.

 

[mrodgers]

You are kind of making OA's argument. If as a server one is required to know 'everything' about all of the restaurant's food and the server is providing the same service regardless of whether a person orders a BLT or a lobster, then why shouldn't the tip be exactly the same for the two meals? Why is the price that the restauarant owner paid for the lobster to be flown in reflected in the server's tip? Why isn't the overall knowledge that the server is expecteed to have reflected in the tip for the BLT?

Imagine if the person who ordered the BLT drank a glass of water while the lobster eater drank a glass of wine. The water added nothing to the tip while the glass of wine did, even though the server did more work related to the glass of water.

This is exactly the problem with tipping. It has nothing to do with finer restaurants vs. cheap restaurants as was mentioned earlier. Even in the same restaurant, I may order a sirloin steak for my kids for $10, a ribeye for myself for $18, and my wife will get fillet for $25. Mine I want medium rare and the others want well done. There is no difference in cooking a steak, only the cost of the cut is different. Thus, why is a tip on the $25 fillet larger than the tip on the ribeye?

The server does nothing different to the family of 4 who sits at one table and has a $30 bill as opposed to the next table family of 4 who has a $60 bill. Only those 2 tables for the hour nets $18/hour just with the tips. Pretty darn good wage, significantly higher than minimum wage as well as higher than most normal jobs, and doubtful that these 2 tables are the only ones they have for that hour.

 

[Acklander]

Huh? You are making a leap. I don't under tip. I can question the rationale for tipping based on a "plate of food" and still tip the standard. Thankyouverymuch.

I don't think you undertip in reality. Sorry you got that impression from my post. Everyone is talking about alternatives to the current tipping system, you stated you didn't see the logic of paying a higher tip just because an item costs more, I stated that, that logic would only work if you also changed the amount for the cheaper item as well. I didn't think you actually reduced your tips on expensive items in real restaurants just like I don't think the OP doesn't tip at all just because he think it should be included with the price. I'm just stating why, in my opinion, the alternative systems don't work.

 

[Praying Colonel]

Tipping everyone and their brother is crazy. My favorite example is our local yogurt shop. It's self serve - you select your yogurt, use the machine to get it, go to the toppings bar and put your own toppings on, walk it to the cashier, put it on the scale and the cashier presses the button to calculate the weight. They used to then stick a spoon in your cup, but now the spoons are next to the scale so you get it after it's weighed. If you pay via credit/debit card you swipe it. There's a tip cup next to the cashier. Why? Am I supposed to tip based on how effectively she presses the button? She doesn't even give you the spoon anymore! It's literally a push of a button.

Tips is To Insure Proper Service. Not exceptional service, not even above average service, just proper service. My standard used to be 20% but has dropped a bit because of increased prices and my own decreased income. Still between 15-18%. If someone is really good, then the tip goes up. Someone is bad, tip goes down. I've only not left a tip while dining a couple of times and the service was well deserving of the big fat $0.

Sorry--and at the risk of going off-topic, but a pet peeve of mine--the above is not true. As the author of this very interesting blog pointed out in his first book, if that were the case, you'd tip at the beginning of the meal, not the end.

Again, sorry--carry on.

 

[sam_gordon]

Huh? You are making a leap. I don't under tip. I can question the rationale for tipping based on a "plate of food" and still tip the standard. Thankyouverymuch.

That's why I put my flame suit on when I started this thread. I knew just QUESTIONING tips would result in accusations that I'm cheap, don't tip, or otherwise disrespect servers.

I *DO* tip every time I go out, usually 18-20%. But that doesn't matter (to some) apparently.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I don't think you undertip in reality. Sorry you got that impression from my post. Everyone is talking about alternatives to the current tipping system, you stated you didn't see the logic of paying a higher tip just because an item costs more, I stated that, that logic would only work if you also changed the amount for the cheaper item as well. I didn't think you actually reduced your tips on expensive items in real restaurants just like I don't think the OP doesn't tip at all just because he think it should be included with the price. I'm just stating why, in my opinion, the alternative systems don't work.

It seemed to come across differently at the time. Thank you for the explanation.

I do have questions regarding your assessment, but I have things that must be done. So they will have to wait.

Interesting topic. Thank you, OP.

 

[Acklander]

This is exactly the problem with tipping. It has nothing to do with finer restaurants vs. cheap restaurants as was mentioned earlier. Even in the same restaurant, I may order a sirloin steak for my kids for $10, a ribeye for myself for $18, and my wife will get fillet for $25. Mine I want medium rare and the others want well done. There is no difference in cooking a steak, only the cost of the cut is different. Thus, why is a tip on the $25 fillet larger than the tip on the ribeye?

The server does nothing different to the family of 4 who sits at one table and has a $30 bill as opposed to the next table family of 4 who has a $60 bill. Only those 2 tables for the hour nets $18/hour just with the tips. Pretty darn good wage, significantly higher than minimum wage as well as higher than most normal jobs, and doubtful that these 2 tables are the only ones they have for that hour.

But you're only counting the time the server is in the restaurant actually serving guests. You're not adding in the 1.5 hrs beforehand setting up, or the hour afterwards cleaning up or the very beginning of the night or very end of the night when everyone is standing around for 1 or 2 tables. Where I used to work (at a hotel that served breakfast/dinner only) all staff were in the restaurant for the time between breakfast and dinner doing the weekly type stuff like changing out the fresh flowers, polishing the silver, cleaning the ceiling fans and so on. You can't look at the tips earned on a busy Saturday night, without looking at the slow Wednesday night.
Is it higher than minimum wage? Sure, but not significantly higher unless you decide to work your way up the ranks to the higher end restaurants or extremely popular restaurants - and those jobs aren't easy to get. The people who get those jobs (and make an incredible amount of money) are the true professionals, with great people skills, an ability to multi task flawlessly, and have a skill. They're not just grabbing orders and dropping off food.