Will Walt Disneyworld ever expand the monorail?

[raidermatt]

I have to disagree with socal on the 5th dimension room as well. More to the point, it seems that most who have been on both view that as a positive for the WDW version.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

I have to disagree with socal on the 5th dimension room as well. More to the point, it seems that most who have been on both view that as a positive for the WDW version.

At least the 5th dimension room doesn't smell the way the unmaintained monorail cabins smell....

 

[Another Voice]

Since I think this is a wasted scene that takes you completely out of the story…

Because, as we all know, there’s nothing strange, creepy or weird about an elevator that moves laterally. You’re so right – having the elevator act in a shocking and unexpected manner doesn’t add to the tension or suspense of the ride at all. Since everyone knows this is a drop ride, only going up & down really is a departure from all the other drop rides at Six Flags across the world. Lastly, it’s just another case of California Adventure’s stunningly inventive irony to have a haunted elevator ride only goes up and down – it’s so hip and edgy it’s no wonder all those stupid tourist don’t get it.

 

[Stickytutu]

I hope someday they will expand the Monorail. It makes the whole "world" seeM different than NYC or LA. We have heard manny rumors but they always fall apart. Where would the track go, and what hotels would they connect given todays resorts?

 

[Another Voice]

Yea – back on topic.

There have been several plans about expanding the system. For a while they were even shown on a large map of the property at Epcot. While all the plans had their individual points, most centered on turning the existing TTC-Epcot beam into a main “North-South” transit way connecting the parks.

I think earlier in this thread I wrote about the early plan for the transportation hub at EPCOT Center and the extension to the Disney Village.

After the Disney/MGM Studios was built (and later the Animal Kingdom), the plan was to extend main “beam” to go from TTC-Epcot-Disney/MGM-Animal Kingdom. Double stations at Epcot and the Studios were let you board either a northbound/TTC train or a southbound/AK train – no more loops!

Now there were a hundred variations on his main plan. There was one idea to essentially do away with the TTC connection point and link the Magic Kingdom directly to Epcot (people parking in the MK lot would mostly likely have only used the ferries). There was an idea to build another beam from Epcot to Downtown Disney and the Hotel Plaza.

A stop at the Swan/Dolphin-Yacht/Beach was a possibility, but a big problem for the monorails has always been the spacing of the stations. Because the trains are fast, and loading them can take a long time, monorails require a good bit of room in between stations so the trains can keep moving and not have to stop for the train in front of them. It’s been a big problem on the Magic Kingdom Resort line ever since the Grand Floridian opened. It’s the reason why WDW upgraded to the “subway” style of car from the previous Mark III version – to promote faster loading and unloading. It’s also the main technical reason why the Wilderness Lodge wasn’t connected to the monorail (but the main main reason was, of course, money).

There have been a few other transportation improvements that almost happened. A light rail/trolley came within this much of being built to connect TTC – Fort Wilderness - Dixie Landings/Port Orleans - Old Key West – and Downtown Disney. There an idea to extend the boat the runs from the Disney/MGM Studios – Boardwalk – Epcot through the World Showcase Lagoon and all the way to Downtown Disney as well (for which I hope they would have bought faster boats).

In the end all of these ideas and plans were sunk by the same thing – Disney didn’t want to put the money into WDW. The office in Orlando went so far as to conduct extensive research to show that guests would pay for the monorail and that it could even turn a profit. But Corporate still decided it liked Fox Family, Internet Portals and magazines more than they wanted to improve the guests’ stay at WDW.

 

[ChrisFL]

Aren't we talking about monorails in this thread? I sure would even pay to ride an expanded system

I think WDW's ToT ride moves forward on a single rail...making it a...monorail!

 

[Dznefreek]

Monorail smell=carpet glue.

 

[aes74]

Another Voice, I totally agree with you. Having grown up here in central Florida, having been an employee for several years, and finally visiting the parks as a parent, I have seen that compromise of dreams vs. money. Busses may or may not be efficient, but they are boring, unimaginative, slow, and something you can do in you regular, non-disney life. Monorails are beautiful, fun, exciting, imaginative, and in the United States anyway, something you only do at Disney World. My children even now are thrilled as we drive onto Disney property, craning their necks to glimpse the next monorail, and yell in unison, "Mono-wail! Mono-wail!!" (one has a little trouble with her r's! )They don't even glance at the busses. The monorails are like an adventure, an attraction in itself (albeit a bit of a smelly one). They beg to ride it! Monorails are very Disney. Busses.....well, you get the picture.

When I worked at Disney we would try to report any "bad show," like animatronics with broken body parts, molded air vents, etc. But the supervisors would just say, "Not right now, there's no money." So I am hoping with this HUGE rate increase, the money is going for WDW, and not Burbank. That would make me really angry.

I am not writing "Down with Disney." I love Disney and it is a happy part of our family life. Most things about it I adore. But if I am going to scrimp and save our money to buy everything that goes with a Disney trip, I darn well have a right to have an opinion about how our beloved parks are being taken care of. And yes, sometimes to criticize.

 

[drakethib]

came from a bus driver (I think) and he stated that Disney wanted to build a monorail from MCO to WDW but at the monorails cost a million dollars per mile.

Heck I might have even heard that from these boards

 

[EUROPACL]

came from a bus driver (I think) and he stated that Disney wanted to build a monorail from MCO to WDW but at the monorails cost a million dollars per mile.

Heck I might have even heard that from these boards

Great I'm so glad that we got Fox Family rather then 500 miles of Monorail.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

came from a bus driver (I think) and he stated that Disney wanted to build a monorail from MCO to WDW but at the monorails cost a million dollars per mile.

One million dollars per mile? If Disney could expand the monorail for so little money per mile, they would jump at the opportunity.

It might have been one million dollars per mile in 1971 dollars, but it would be far more today.

The Las Vegas Monorail cost $654 million for just 4.4 miles. It uses the same Bombardier technology and the same kind of track as the WDW Monorail. I'm sure that the monorail developers in Las Vegas did everything they could to keep costs as low as possible. I assume the costs in Las Vegas refer to a double track, all stations, all trains, and the cost of fitting the system into an existing built-up area.

At WDW, the cost per mile would probably be lower, especially for a loop track instead of a double track.

Still, just think how much a mile-long concrete and steel structure would cost to build. That's a lot of concrete and steel. And the beams have to be able to carry the weight of the trains. The trains must be many millions of dollars each. The cost is staggering.

 

[Another Voice]

The cost is staggering.

Actually, since WDW is mostly swamp and wetlands, the cost of a monorail is lower than a major road way large enough for busses and tourist traffic. It's much cheaper to build a beam than a four-land bridge.

Of course, you don't get all those juicy taxpayer-supported bailouts and federal bus grants...

 

[ChrisFL]

Actually, since WDW is mostly swamp and wetlands, the cost of a monorail is lower than a major road way large enough for busses and tourist traffic. It's much cheaper to build a beam than a four-land bridge.

Is it though? I mean wouldn't it be quite difficult to get the structural integrity for the support of the beams with that kind of foundation?

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Actually, since WDW is mostly swamp and wetlands, the cost of a monorail is lower than a major road way large enough for busses and tourist traffic. It's much cheaper to build a beam than a four-lane bridge.

AV, I don't know where you get your information from, but you're flat out wrong. I have a masters degree in civil engineering and have been designing and building roads and bridges my entire career and I can assure you that a road (even with some bridges thrown in there) is significantly cheaper than a monorail system. I could go on for pages with information as to why it is cheaper, but I'll sum it up this way:

roads = flat = cheap to build
monorails = elevated = expensive to build

There's a whole slew of other things associated with the monorail that also drive up the costs such as the geotechnical work, foundations for the piers, the stations, the need to build temporary haul roads, and the actual monorails themselves....

You're gonna have to do some serious fact presenting to even get me to entertain the idea that a monorail is cheaper than a road.

 

[Another Voice]

I don't doubt for a moment your expertise and I freely admit that all I know is what I've heard in respect to WDW's monorail system and its unique “urban wetlands” environment. . It is, however, somewhat interesting to think that thin, pre-cast concrete beams on pillars are vastly more expensive than acres of concrete and the hundreds of pilings that are needed to support a major roadway. Add to that long term maintenance of the basic structure – I’ve never seen the WDW monorails shut down to fix potholes. Then there are the actual operational issues involved when Disney transports the guests vs. having the guests drive themselves. While a drunk drive can easily kill a tourist family from Toledo on the road, accidents on the monorail (and all the insurance, police and facility costs associated with that) are much lower. Even Disney’s costs are directly affected as a single monorail driver can transport a hundred of guests at a time while a single and much higher paid bus driver can only transport a fraction of that number (although it does seem the busses do try to carry at least 100 people jammed in so tightly that people on the Tokyo subway would feel uncomfortable). The other primary "higher costs" are the result of government subsidies to light rail systems that make them cheaper, overall, than monorails because of a higher installed base. It's much cheaper to buy a trolley car because every government from San Diego to Helsinki churns tax payer money into their manufacturers whereas monorails are rare and “custom” projects. And if you’re looking at financing as part of the total cost of the system, most cities don’t have the luxury of factoring in each of its “citizens” coughing up eighty bucks a day just to get into the city limits as WDW has.

In the end WDW doesn’t play with the same economics that cities and real governments have to put up with. Disney’s cost of capital is small and paybacks are fantastically quick – a city needs to build fast and cheap because it will be paying off those road bonds for generations. Disney needs to build interesting, exciting and extraordinary because that’s why people come to WDW; a city just has to build just good enough – and only enough - to get the council re-elected in November.

WDW isn’t the real world.

 

[manning]

Why are all our roads a mess???

Maybe what we need is good old Roman know-how. Some of their roads still exist and used!! At least that is what I read a few years ago.

 

[raidermatt]

Monorail smell=carpet glue.

That's infinitely better than the smell on our BART trains here in the SF Bay Area.


I don't doubt that Monorail expansion would be expensive, and the only thing I am definite about is that the WDW transportation system as it stands is inadequate for Disney's needs, or at least for what Disney should consider its needs. Perhaps Monorail expansion is part of the solution, and perhaps its not.

That said, wasn't it pretty darned expensive back in 1971? You can argue that its greater novelty provided greater benefits back then, but still, we can't stop the conversation at the costs. I'm not sold on the idea that its no longer considered unique, but even if I grant that, the next step is to build something that IS unique.

The status quo is not the best solution simply by virtue of it being the status quo.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

AV - great and eloquently thought out post, but...

You still didn't present any facts as to why builiding new road system in WDW is more expenseive than building a new monorail is. You added a lot of language in your post about the life-cycle cost of a transportation facility but I was talking about the actual cost to build it. If we strictly talk design and construction costs, a properly placed road/bridge facility will be cheaper than a monorail system any day of the week. There's nothing unique about WDW property that makes building a monorail cheaper than building a road network. Wetlands are wetlands. There is nothing special about WDW's wetlands vs. the wetlands in Michigan or Iowa or Colorado; whether they be in the wild or a small tract of land in the inner-city. Building on or near them whether it be a road or monorail, you are still subject to the same federal regulations. The wetland issue is a non-factor. You are required to mitigate impacts on wetlands whether it be a road or monorail system.

On the monorail side, the manufacturing of the pre-cast beams for the monorail system may use less concrete and steel than a 4-lane road, but that's only a small part of the story. You have to design each pier and particularly each footing. There's geotechnical work that's required at each pier location. And then you have to physically place each pier and beam. That *elevated* work is done via crane. THAT drives up your costs significantly. Building a road, especially in an environment like WDW where you have tons of space, is a much cheaper, quicker operation. Set your line and grade, do your earthwork, lay your base materials, get out a big paver and go! Roads are very rarely built on piles, but every pier supporting that monorail is built on some type of piling/foundation system.

I know I sound like I'm over-simplifying it, but there's so much more to building a monorail than a roadway...

 

[DisneyFanGuy]

Well WDW has got to eventually do something. The roads are more congested every time I am there. If they see a reduction in guests, and a key driver on surveys is frustration from the roads, a monorail will be built in short order.

 

[ztbz]

In the end all of these ideas and plans were sunk by the same thing – Disney didn’t want to put the money into WDW. The office in Orlando went so far as to conduct extensive research to show that guests would pay for the monorail and that it could even turn a profit. But Corporate still decided it liked Fox Family, Internet Portals and magazines more than they wanted to improve the guests’ stay at WDW.

Bingo, I heard this too. But the good news is that Ei$ner is no longer at Disney, so give it a little time maybe one more changed at the top and we could see the Monorails expanded in about 6 to 10 years from now.