Will Walt Disneyworld ever expand the monorail?

[YoHo]

AV - great and eloquently thought out post, but...

You still didn't present any facts as to why builiding new road system in WDW is more expenseive than building a new monorail is. You added a lot of language in your post about the life-cycle cost of a transportation facility but I was talking about the actual cost to build it. If we strictly talk design and construction costs, a properly placed road/bridge facility will be cheaper than a monorail system any day of the week. There's nothing unique about WDW property that makes building a monorail cheaper than building a road network. Wetlands are wetlands. There is nothing special about WDW's wetlands vs. the wetlands in Michigan or Iowa or Colorado; whether they be in the wild or a small tract of land in the inner-city. Building on or near them whether it be a road or monorail, you are still subject to the same federal regulations. The wetland issue is a non-factor. You are required to mitigate impacts on wetlands whether it be a road or monorail system.

On the monorail side, the manufacturing of the pre-cast beams for the monorail system may use less concrete and steel than a 4-lane road, but that's only a small part of the story. You have to design each pier and particularly each footing. There's geotechnical work that's required at each pier location. And then you have to physically place each pier and beam. That *elevated* work is done via crane. THAT drives up your costs significantly. Building a road, especially in an environment like WDW where you have tons of space, is a much cheaper, quicker operation. Set your line and grade, do your earthwork, lay your base materials, get out a big paver and go! Roads are very rarely built on piles, but every pier supporting that monorail is built on some type of piling/foundation system.

I know I sound like I'm over-simplifying it, but there's so much more to building a monorail than a roadway...

I would assume, knowing AV's sources, that Disney has at least considered needing to support roadways with piers.


This website discusses the unique issues withh roads built through florida's swamps
http://build-the-skyway.com/_wsn/page5.html

Obviously it doesn't specifically involve Orlando or Disney, but Disney, given their wetlands requirments probably has to maintain similar water managment issues. The days of grading and paving are well and truely done in Florida.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

I would assume, knowing AV's sources, that Disney has at least considered needing to support roadways with piers.


This website discusses the unique issues withh roads built through florida's swamps
http://build-the-skyway.com/_wsn/page5.html

Obviously it doesn't specifically involve Orlando or Disney, but Disney, given their wetlands requirments probably has to maintain similar water managment issues. The days of grading and paving are well and truely done in Florida.

That website is from the Sierra club. There's nothing worse than a bunch of environmentalists (i.e. non -engineers) dictating how a road should be built. And you should know that's not a road they're promoting - it's a causeway. There's a huge difference in cost.

If you know AV's sources then what are they? He still hasn't told me why designing and building a road is expensive on WDW property. I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of Florida and have designed a lot of roads both in MI and FL in my lifetime. Roads are roads and are governed by the same set of criteria backed by the FHWA. There's nothing special about World Drive or Epcot Center Drive on WDW Property. They are roads on grade - as are 99.9% of the roads in Florida.

I'm not here to argue the merits of roads vs. monorails. I'm all for an expansion of the monorail system and would gladly take it. I'm literally just trying to talk nuts-n-bolts with regards to the cost of building a road vs. a monorail.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

It's not really a question of "road vs. monorail."

The roads are needed in any case. Sure, there might be cases when a new monorail might divert enough guests to allow a 4-lane road instead of a 6-lane road. The real road/monorail question is buses on existing roads vs. monorail tracks, stations, and trains in addition to roads.

It sounds as if I'm defending Disney's decision to expand the bus fleet rather than making transportation fun. That's not my intention. My intention in post #51 was to point out that the oft-repeated "million dollars per mile" figure is not true. The real cost of a monorail expansion would be much higher. Transportation is expensive.

I agree with AV's articulate statement:

"Disney needs to build interesting, exciting and extraordinary because that’s why people come to WDW; a city just has to build just good enough – and only enough - to get the council re-elected in November."​

Disney should make transportation fun as well as efficient. The buses are not fun. They really are like city buses, especially with the ugly advertising inside.

I'd like to see the Epcot monorail line expanded to become a true transportation backbone for the four theme parks. I'd like to see rail-based feeders to monorail stations, such as the Epcot station — whether that means shuttle monorails, peoplemovers, or light rail. And I'd like to see light rail and buses designed to have a vintage look that makes you feel you're in another place and time, rather than in Any City, USA.

 

[ChrisFL]

I've had some pretty bad experiences with the bus system and it just isn't fast unless you schedule it perfectly. Last time I went to WDW, I did 4 parks in one day, drove my own car between AK, MGM and Epcot, then took the monorail to MK, its SOOOO much nicer taking a monorail than driving or taking the bus

Again, it isn't just about cost, if it was then WDW would never be more than an amusement park and nothing would be themed. They need to look beyond the number crunchers and do what should have happened a long time ago, expand the monorail.

 

[barreloflaughs]

That website is from the Sierra club. There's nothing worse than a bunch of environmentalists (i.e. non -engineers) dictating how a road should be built.

Please be careful not to paint with too broad a brush.....I know plenty of engineers who would be happy to be termed 'environmentalist'. The terms are not mutually exclusive!

barrel

 

[Bstanley]

As much as I liked visiting Disneyland recently - IMHO it would be a disaster if Walt Disney World morphed into a virtual LA with ever more highways and diesel buses. I can just see it now - people sitting around hoping a storm will come and blow away the exhaust...

The cost per mile to build some sort of (hopefully themed) mass transit may be higher than 4 lanes of divided highway populated with buses, but wouldn't the operating costs be substantially lower? It's clear that people are willing to spend serious money to stay at a monorail resort - If there was a train or monorail (or Widget express) between AKL <> AK <> Studios how much more would people be willing to pay for an AKL room - $5?, $10? Also wouldn't the added kewlness factor help bring in guests in general? etc. Shoot they don't even need to build a train - just convert the buses to electric and theme them somehow - as it stands LA has kewler buses than WDW.

Continuing to expand the existing bus/road system is a leading indicator that 'business as usual' is continuing at WDW.

Conversely changes to the existing transportation system to make it more of an 'attraction' would be a leading indicator that WDW is breaking out of their box.

 

[MJMcBride]

That website is from the Sierra club. There's nothing worse than a bunch of environmentalists (i.e. non -engineers) dictating how a road should be built.

Its called checks and balances. Someone has to make sure roads aren't just built in the cheapest manner, but built to also be environmentally apprioprate something some construction companies and/or engineers do not concern themselves with.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Its called checks and balances. Someone has to make sure roads aren't just built in the cheapest manner, but built to also be environmentally apprioprate something some construction companies and/or engineers do not concern themselves with.

Well they better concern themselves with it. If you use federal funds to build a roadway, or a project is eventually used by the motoring public (i.e. roads on WDW property) there's gonna be federal oversight of the project. There are a crap load of laws on the books out there right now that would not allow the Tamiami Highway to be built in the same fashion it was years ago. Most highway and bridge engineers are extremely sensitive to such issues. The big buzz term out there right now is "context sensitive design". The FHWA and most state and local entities have bought off on this concept of designing transportation facilities that are appropriate to their surroundings.

 

[MJMcBride]

Well they better concern themselves with it. If you use federal funds to build a roadway, or a project is eventually used by the motoring public (i.e. roads on WDW property) there's gonna be federal oversight of the project. There are a crap load of laws on the books out there right now that would not allow the Tamiami Highway to be built in the same fashion it was years ago. Most highway and bridge engineers are extremely sensitive to such issues. The big buzz term out there right now is "context sensitive design". The FHWA and most state and local entities have bought off on this concept of designing transportation facilities that are appropriate to their surroundings.

Of course they concern themselves with them. There are certainly plenty of laws re: construction. I spent a brief time working for the EPA. But I would think construction companies being in the business of making roads are concerned with doing it in the most cost effective manner possible under the laws. The environmental impact is in a way forced upon them.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

...I spent a brief time working for the EPA.

You're a lawyer, you worked at the EPA, you gave tours at zoos.... Next you're probably gonna tell me you spent a week as an airline pilot but didn't like it so went back to law work....

What haven't you done?

 

[MJMcBride]

You're a lawyer, you worked at the EPA, you gave tours at zoos.... Next you're probably gonna tell me you spent a week as an airline pilot but didn't like it so went back to law work....

What haven't you done?

Actually, during law school I interned at the EPA. So its not exactly work since I got credits not money. So I guess I paid them to work there.

As for your question, I have never worked a rodeo, I have never been an astronaut, I have not played professional ball, I have never worked at WDW, I have never danced in the pale moonlight, I have never been on a cruise, I have never heard a Yanni album, I have never rooted for the Red Sox, I have never dated a supermodel (except my wife of course), I have never had a really good pickle.....

.....But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[BRERALEX]

"As for your question, I have never worked a rodeo, I have never been an astronaut, I have not played professional ball, I have never worked at WDW, I have never danced in the pale moonlight, I have never been on a cruise, I have never heard a Yanni album, I have never rooted for the Red Sox, I have never dated a supermodel (except my wife of course), I have never had a really good pickle.....

.....But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."

But where you an airline pilot?

 

[ajtux]

That's your mistake...you never rooted for the Red Sox

 

[drakethib]

Deleted

 

[mrludwig]

I love the monorail and really wish they would expand it to all parks, hotels, etc... I am sure the buses are most cost efficient at it would be very expensive to expand the monorail but it sure would be GREAT if they did.

 

[MJMcBride]

NASA employs some of the most intelligent engineers in the world and they still have space shuttles blowing up.

Sorry, I had to jab you with that.

now thats a bit harsh

 

[Another Voice]

Sorry for the delay in responding – real life gets in the way sometimes.

I’m not an engineer and I eagerly give-up any idea to be an expert on road construction. All I know is what I’ve seen and heard – and that’s most likely out of date by now in terms of cost. Certainly WDW has changed the standards they used to have for roads: the iron clad rules against intersections and traffic lights have certainly been abandoned with glee. Who knows what else has changed.

The real point is the economics of WDW are not the same as that of a real town or city. It’s a resort, it’ supposed to entertain people. That means moving them quickly, efficiently, comfortably and enjoyably around the complex. All of that is lost when you pack people into busses or when people feel they have to rent a car just to drive from their resort to a theme park. The entire idea of WDW is supposed to make you forget the real world – not to remind you why you left Detroit.

It goes back to the basic problem with WDW today – the resort is not being run in the best interest of WDW, The Business; it’s being run in the best interest of a dozen other things that have nothing to do with why you visit.

 

[drakethib]

now thats a bit harsh

Maybe so.

Deleted my post. Didn't want to offend anyone.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Sorry for the delay in responding – real life gets in the way sometimes.

I’m not an engineer and I eagerly give-up any idea to be an expert on road construction. All I know is what I’ve seen and heard – and that’s most likely out of date by now in terms of cost. Certainly WDW has changed the standards they used to have for roads: the iron clad rules against intersections and traffic lights have certainly been abandoned with glee. Who knows what else has changed.

The real point is the economics of WDW are not the same as that of a real town or city. It’s a resort, it’ supposed to entertain people. That means moving them quickly, efficiently, comfortably and enjoyably around the complex. All of that is lost when you pack people into busses or when people feel they have to rent a car just to drive from their resort to a theme park. The entire idea of WDW is supposed to make you forget the real world – not to remind you why you left Detroit.

It goes back to the basic problem with WDW today – the resort is not being run in the best interest of WDW, The Business; it’s being run in the best interest of a dozen other things that have nothing to do with why you visit.

Good thoughts. While the capital outlay to build a road/bridge network between points may be cheaper than that for a monorail system, it has none of the benefits of the monorail. That's what I was referring to in my life-cycle cost analysis (or LCCA as we term it in the biz) analogy. When you factor in all the things mentioned previously by you and other posters over the next 30 years, it may make sense to outlay way more money now for a monorail system that will have impacts and benefits to WDW as a whole over an extended timeframe. Some of those things are quantitative (i.e. if we put a monorail station outside of the AKL we can increase room prices by $XXX) and a lot are qualitative that can't have dollars readily associated with them. Those qualitative things were ignored in Eisner's regime and it will take massive amounts of change throughout the organization to re-instate some value on them.

I think we're on the same page on this issue: Hopefully you'll get where I'm coming from on the road being cheaper to build issue, and I certainly understand (at least better than before) your position with regards to the monorail. There's just some things you can't put money on.

 

[DannyDisneyFreak]

It goes back to the basic problem with WDW today – the resort is not being run in the best interest of WDW, The Business; it’s being run in the best interest of a dozen other things that have nothing to do with why you visit.

I agree, does anyone think there is hope for WDW to get focused back on entertaining rather than just money making? Dosen't it make sense that if WDW was run to make guests have the most memorable and magical experience that people would return more and the Disney company would make more money? Dosen't those at the top see that it is things like the monorail and the resorts along the monorail line that keep WDW above Universal? What can be done?