Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[luvsJack]

So first its about what the flag came to represent after the war with the kkk, then its said to be all about slavery and NOW its because the south fought the union? Can we at least keep the reasoning the same?

I give you the kk using it, the other two, well, that flag did not fly over slavery nor the confederate states. wrong flag.

And can I ask, how often do yall even see it in the north for you to be fighting it so much?

Take down the confederate battle flag from any federal government building. It shouldn't be there, but how many have it? The original flag in question was over a memorial, was it not? Take it down, but replace it with an actual confederate flag.

And leave our state flag the heck alone. We will decide, again, what to do with it.

 

[disneyjunkie]

[QUOTE="luvsJack, post: 53938924, member: 144764"And can I ask, how often do yall even see it in the north for you to be fighting it so much?.[/QUOTE]

I saw it often as child. I grew up in NY, but spent many summers in Latta, South Carolina. I saw it often when I attended college in Raleigh, NC. (I lived there for 8 years after graduating before moving back to Brooklyn.) My son graduated from Hampton University last year. I saw it every year when I took him back to school. I see whenever I go to Virginia Beach or Hampton for vacations . I will see it later this summer while I'm in SC visiting family.

 

[dinolounger]

You don't understand the difference between men who owned slaves and men who fought a war (and lost) against their own country?

You imply the cultural cleansers are only after all erasing all elements representing the Confederacy (and seem to imply they are justified in doing so).

The first problem with that viewpoint is that their agenda here -- as I have pointed out previously -- goes far beyond banning flags and removing monuments (in manners that increasingly resemble ISIS tactics). They aren't just after civil war legacy. They want to isolate and diminish everything and anything representing the traditional south.

Secondly, the cleansers are not going to stop with only demonizing those who opposed and fought the Union. As example, years ago they got the state of California to demand that any corporation doing business in the state that has been in business during the slavery era had to go into its records and document whether it benefited from slavery in any way (copy of one report from that witch hunt-like undertaking is in the link below). This was part of an attempt to try and start legislative initiatives demanding reparations. The latter failed, but it shows what the longer term agenda of the aggrieved is: not just banning symbols but extorting "damages."

http://sfgsa.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=860

 

[TLSnell1981]

This was part of an attempt to try and start legislative initiatives demanding reparations. The latter failed, but it shows what the long agenda of the aggrieved is: not just banning symbols but extorting "damages."

http://sfgsa.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=860

 

[luvsJack]

[QUOTE="luvsJack, post: 53938924, member: 144764"And can I ask, how often do yall even see it in the north for you to be fighting it so much?.

I saw it often as child. I grew up in NY, but spent many summers in Latta, South Carolina. I saw it often when I attended college in Raleigh, NC. (I lived there for 8 years after graduating before moving back to Brooklyn.) My son graduated from Hampton University last year. I saw it every year when I took him back to school. I see whenever I go to Virginia Beach or Hampton for vacations . I will see it later this summer while I'm in SC visiting family.[/QUOTE]

You see it on what? Pick up trucks? Federal buildings? State buildings? Monuments?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You don't understand the difference between men who owned slaves and men who fought a war (and lost) against their own country?

Washington fought a war of independence against his country - England. The Southern states all certainly believed they had the right to secede. So, aside from one succeeding & the other not......

Now, do we need to fly the losers' flag today? Probably not. But, for those who fought those battles, no I do not buy your implied "difference".

 

[Disneychick75]

You don't understand the difference between men who owned slaves and men who fought a war (and lost) against their own country?

No, I guess I'm just dumb like that. :/
Do you understand that the Civil War was not fought over just slavery? It was fought because the Federal government was encroaching on state's rights and surprise, because of money. I think slavery was horrible and am glad it ended. The Stars and Stripes was the flag the Ku Klux Klan carried exclusively for almost 100 years. It was only in the past few decades that they co-opted the flag of Northern Virginia. Since the Ku kluxers carried the Stars and Stripes, maybe that flag should be banned as well?

I could give a darn about the so called Confederate flag (flag of Northern Virginia) except that we have Freedom of Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment. Once these rights are infringed, what will be undermined next?

 

[TLSnell1981]

we have Freedom of Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment. Once these rights are infringed, what will be undermined next?

Already playing chip away...stripping away little pieces, bit by bit, hoping NO ONE will notice.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Do you understand that the Civil War was not fought over just slavery?

As a white man from the north, I am not offended by the Southern Cross based on my race. Heck, I am pretty sure I have a relative who had slaves in upstate New York back in 1790 (I'm not positive). My opinion is the Confederacy lost. and the Southern Cross shouldn't be flown on government property. But as a northern, my opinion does not really matter much. I'm not a constituent of South Carolina, so nobody has to listen to me, anyway.

As for regular citizens, fly whatever flag you want.

Although I do appreciate the use of the word "just" in your statement. Because slavery was definitely part of the issue.

 

[robinb]

I could give a darn about the so called Confederate flag (flag of Northern Virginia) except that we have Freedom of Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment. Once these rights are infringed, what will be undermined next?

You still have your freedom of speech. You, Disneychick75 and everyone else for that matter, can let the Stars and Bars fly on your own property or hold and wave it in your very own hand. Knock yourself out because that flag for your personal use and display is covered under the First Amendment !

 

[luvsJack]

As a white man from the north, I am not offended by the Southern Cross based on my race. Heck, I am pretty sure I have a relative who had slaves in upstate New York back in 1790 (I'm not positive). My opinion is the Confederacy lost. and the Southern Cross shouldn't be flown on government property. But as a northern, my opinion does not really matter much. I'm not a constituent of South Carolina, so nobody has to listen to me, anyway.

As for regular citizens, fly whatever flag you want.

Although I do appreciate the use of the word "just" in your statement. Because slavery was definitely part of the issue.

I don't think anyone has ever denied that the civil war was at least partly, probably mostly about slavery. No one is flying a Southern Cross because they support slavery. Heck, its hardly about the civil war. I find it funny that any discussion about the flag or anything that is traditional southern, the fact that "the south lost" is always brought up. For it to be said that the south can't forget the war, folks from other regions sure do focus on it a lot.

To say that you don't think the flag should not be flown because the south lost, shows that you have no understanding for the south and what it means to those who live here. You do realize that we haven't always won under the American flag? You do a great disservice to anyone whose family served and gave the ultimate sacrifice when you imply they should be not be respected because they lost.

I have asked this question several times and no one seems willing to answer it. Would you have the same problem if the actual flag that flew over the confederate states was flown instead of the southern cross?

Earlier in this thread, it was said that the flag should not fly over government buildings. I see you have now changed that statement to say government property. So no flag should be flown on civil war memorials? Or would another flag be ok? Or is it that, since the confederacy lost, you think there should be no memorials?

 

[TLSnell1981]

It saddens me to hear, so many were taught to fear a flag AND people, who live in a particular region. That wasn't the South, that I know and love. I saw people, who never hated, reach out. Maybe a small gesture, but a meaningful one. I saw ignorant people evolve. Of course, some lived in a shell, but I highly doubt, that's just a Southern thang

Some believe forgiveness and redemption is reserved for some, but not others. I've never understood that thought process. It must go back to whoever fits the agenda?

 

[dinolounger]

Some believe forgiveness and redemption is reserved for some, but not others. I've never understood that thought process. It must go back to whoever fits the agenda?

Exactly. Northern banks (like Chase) and insurers (like CIGNA) who funded and/or directly benefitted from slavery during the 19th century are getting a free pass from the "blue state" cultural cleaners, while they vilify the present day "red state" descendants of Confederate soldiers, most of whom never even owned slaves.

Which reflects not just their "bury the south" agenda, but also how unknowledgable and hypocritical most of the "ban the flag" zealots are.

 

[dinolounger]

To say that you don't think the flag should not be flown because the south lost, shows that you have no understanding for the south and what it means to those who live here. You do realize that we haven't always won under the American flag? You do a great disservice to anyone whose family served and gave the ultimate sacrifice when you imply they should be not be respected because they lost.

I have asked this question several times and no one seems willing to answer it.

Luvsjack, unfortunately you are not getting an answer because your excellent point left the cultural cleaning crowd speechless - and afraid to respond because there is no way for them to do so without displaying their gross insensitivity to the respect for ALL war dead.

I could also go on about what it is like to go to and spend time in a country we lost a war with and see how they treat the "loser." Vietnam is probably the best example; suffice to those I got to know there have a lot more grace and sensitivity in this area than the intolerant, small-minded "you lost" posters here.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I am so sad this thread turned into a flag debate. And here I was worried about a gun debate.

Unfortunately we never got to talk about the people this thread was intended to talk about: the victims.

Nobody even brought up the services or any of the other good things associated with this tragedy.

I also find it ironic that some who are complaining about others are doing the exact same thing.

What a waste.

There was another thread looking for people to talk about the flag debate.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I am so sad this thread turned into a flag debate. And here I was worried about a gun debate.

Unfortunately we never got to talk about the people this thread was intended to talk about: the victims.

Nobody even brought up the services or any of the other good things associated with this tragedy.

I also find it ironic that some who are complaining about others are doing the exact same thing.

What a waste.

There was another thread looking for people to talk about the flag debate.

I'm truly quite the optimist. I always look for the good in others because I BELIEVE it exists. I have hope, that people can come together, especially in a crisis. Unfortunately, there are some, who divert the positive message and stir up negative vibes. They want division, not unity.

 

[JaneBanks]

I'm truly quite the optimist. I always look for the good in others because I BELIEVE it exists. I have hope, that people can come together, especially in a crisis. Unfortunately, there are some, who divert the positive message and stir up negative vibes. They want division, not unity.

And that comes from BOTH sides.

This has nothing to do with what I quoted but...

I ran out of tinfoil making my hat.

 

[robinb]

Exactly. Northern banks (like Chase) and insurers (like CIGNA) who funded and/or directly benefitted from slavery during the 19th century are getting a free pass from the "blue state" cultural cleaners, while they vilify the present day "red state" descendants of Confederate soldiers, most of whom never even owned slaves.

Which reflects not just their "bury the south" agenda, but also how unknowledgable and hypocritical most of the "ban the flag" zealots are.

Really? Can't you make your point without clearly bringing politics in the discussion in such insulting way?

 

[luvsJack]

I am so sad this thread turned into a flag debate. And here I was worried about a gun debate.

Unfortunately we never got to talk about the people this thread was intended to talk about: the victims.

Nobody even brought up the services or any of the other good things associated with this tragedy.

I also find it ironic that some who are complaining about others are doing the exact same thing.

What a waste.

There was another thread looking for people to talk about the flag debate.

The whole tragedy should never have led to a flag debate. Personally, I don't know anything about the victims. Even on the news, little is said about them but is that really unusual?

The debate wasn't started here, it was started all over the country at a time when it could have been left alone. When any of us, north, south, east or west, are pushed we are going to push back and that is what has been happening.

 

[TLSnell1981]

And that comes from BOTH sides.

This has nothing to do with what I quoted but...

I ran out of tinfoil making my hat.

Sorry, I know who started the trainwreck. There were a few rumblings, but when the bat signal went out, and the caped crusaders arrived...it was done. There were several attempts to get back on track, but..oh well. Some cannot tolerate a civil discussion, so they need to shut it down.

Tin foil hat? Nice. Some never change.