Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[luvsJack]

I just saw the video of your President leading Amazing Grace at the funeral. What an amazing speaker!

I told dh that was the first time I really saw him being seemingly candid and human. I really liked that he led the song, it was very moving.

 

[disneyjunkie]

If there was such abject burning concern over "stereotypical" brand icons (which is now code for anything vintage) why wasn't it being voiced before the Charleston incident? Why wasn't the NAACP imploring Pepsi (the owner of the Aunt Jemima br
What rock have you been living under????

If there was such abject burning concern over "stereotypical" brand icons (which is now code for anything vintage) why wasn't it being voiced before the Charleston incident? Why wasn't the NAACP imploring Pepsi (the owner of the Aunt Jemima brand) years ago to put her to rest?

Bottom line: they weren't, because there wasn't burning concern, because said images weren't particularly controversial.

It has just now -- because of a tragedy -- become immediately easy and fashionable for the PC crowd to find racism in everything. That is creating a literal (and ugly) witch-hunt environment where fanatical zealots are almost falling over themselves, competing to see who can come up with the most creative and arcane examples of "racist" symbols that need to be banned. It's only a matter of time until we will be hearing that the song "White Christmas" needs to be retired and use of the term "blacklist" forbidden.

Just because YOU are just hearing about this, that doesn't mean the black community hasn't spent DECADES voicing their concern about the issue.

Just because YOU are just hearing about this issue, doesn't mean that the black community hasn't spent DECADES voicing their concerns about it.

 

[disneyjunkie]

******

 

[disneyjunkie]

*****

 

[eliza61]

I said in on another similar, recent thread (Baltimore) - that the black community needs better leadership.

"I also think there needs to be some changes in the African American community, as well. For one thing, they need a great leader again, one who is respected by all. And I don't mean a president, who is spread so thin; I mean someone whose sole job it is to bring everyone together for the common good.

Bill Cosby, current troubles notwithstanding, gave a speech during an NAACP awards ceremony back in 2004 that was widely criticized at the time. But let's re-look at what he had to say. (I believe there was another black celebrity more recently who essentially said the same thing, and was also criticized, but I can't remember who it was.)

The Pound Cake Speech:

http://www.cbn.com/tv/1398877690001

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_Cake_speech "

I alluded to it earlier in the thread, but I'll say it outright here. Black folks that try to say anything like the above are shot down pretty quickly by some blacks and referred to as "Uncle Toms" so they've been silenced pretty quickly. Just look at what happens on Twitter and other social media. So everyone hesitates to say anything.

A really sad thing is that this preacher and senator who was killed may actually been one of the people who could have effected change in a positive way. But maybe, somehow, all this "positivity" from their families and the people of Charleston may have planted the seed...

You are 1000% corect. Which is insane. Chris Rock does a very true comedy bit where he says " I love black people but the N words have got to go".
I don't know when we developed this attitude that no one dare criticize us. When i was growing up especially living in Harlem you dare not "act a fool" as my grandma would say. Now it's like any behaviour is tolerated and accepted.


For me, I don't have any real preference between black or AA. I usually use Black, lol probably because I'm an extrovert and AA always sound so formal

 

[eliza61]

Just because YOU are just hearing about this issue, doesn't mean that the black community hasn't spent DECADES voicing their concerns about it.

It's has always, always been insulting to us. It was a huge reason why dh and I did not allow our son to play football at University of Mississippi. I was not leaving my son on a campus with the rebel flag hanging all over. I simply could not do it and as paranoid as it may sound it was because that flag represents kynching and killing for every black person I know.

So some general thoughts from following.

#1. SYMBOLS HAVE MEANING. When some one wears the star of david you know what that means, when we see the Statue of liberty or the Liberty Bell they have specific meaning. symbols have the power to evoke emotions. To equate the meaning behind the rebel flag with a syrup symbol is insulting. Of course you don't see the problem. you're family wasn't being lynched, mutilated, oppressed.
Whether or not you pretend not to know doesn't change the explicable fact that for a large portion of your population for over 100 years, the Rebel flag has stood for the lawful subjection, oppression and enslavement of a people.

#2. No taking it down will not make our problems magically better. but here's the thing, it could foster a willingness to at least want to make relations better. When folks pretend that this flag was not used as a symbol of hate, that in itself makes a statement. I've also never understood the correlation between the two. so let me get this street, because the black community has issues, it's ok to continue to denigrate them? "uh???

#3. Our leaders are not different than any other races leaders, we have our share of nut jobs. Al Sharpton is no better or worse than Rush Limbaugh. LOL both of these guys confirm my belief that getting rid of cable tv was the best move I've made in a long time.

#4 Taken down and banned are two totally different things. I fully support any person, private business etc to flying whatever they wish but IMO a government entity that is supposed to be elected by the people for all people do not have the same luxuries.

and lastly, I'm probably more optimistic than most mainly because I've been hearing all these doom day projections for a long time. Blacks getting the right to vote was going to do us in, gays getting the right to marry, rock music, rap music, the soviet union was going to bomb us off the planet, the president getting elected was going to make us Muslim (this one was touted right here on the dis) and yet we keep marching on.

 

[Muushka]

If there was such abject burning concern over "stereotypical" brand icons (which is now code for anything vintage) why wasn't it being voiced before the Charleston incident? Why wasn't the NAACP imploring Pepsi (the owner of the Aunt Jemima brand) years ago to put her to rest?

Bottom line: they weren't, because there wasn't burning concern, because said images weren't particularly controversial.

It has just now -- because of a tragedy -- become immediately easy and fashionable for the PC crowd to find racism in everything. That is creating a literal (and ugly) witch-hunt environment where fanatical zealots are almost falling over themselves, competing to see who can come up with the most creative and arcane examples of "racist" symbols that need to be banned. It's only a matter of time until we will be hearing that the song "White Christmas" needs to be retired and use of the term "blacklist" forbidden.

You ask why now? Because this is the political issue du jour. 4 years ago it was a war on women.
The mainstream media is very helpful at times like these.

And I will ask again, why is it that nobody is up in arms over the Robert Byrd statue? The man was a member of the KKK. He is a reminder of the past.
Again, it's all politics.

 

[luvsJack]

Eliza, with all due respect, Rush Limbaugh is hardly a leader of any race.

Can I ask you an honest question? When you wouldn't allow your son to play at Ole Miss, did you visit the campus? Did you look at srudent life past the mascot and school colors? Did you talk to other black students or football players? I can certainly understand anyone being turned off to the school when those things were there, at first glance.

From what you are saying here, your problem with the flag is the kkk and other groups. I understand that. If that is the case, wouldn't using the actual flag of the confederacy be a compromise? No one is pretending that it hasn't been used as a symbol for those hate groups. What the problem is it being shoved down our throats that we have to remove it with no open discussion and no compromise. The flag doesn't mean the same thing everytime you see it or to everyone.

And when action is started to remove the flag, immediately the calls start for removing portraits, statues, memorials, names and a sticker from a toy car! The south starts to feel as though we have no voice in our own states! And please understand, I do mot mean the white folks in the south, the south as a whole.

 

[eliza61]

Eliza, with all due respect, Rush Limbaugh is hardly a leader of any race.

Can I ask you an honest question? When you wouldn't allow your son to play at Ole Miss, did you visit the campus? Did you look at srudent life past the mascot and school colors? Did you talk to other black students or football players? I can certainly understand anyone being turned off to the school when those things were there, at first glance.

From what you are saying here, your problem with the flag is the kkk and other groups. I understand that. If that is the case, wouldn't using the actual flag of the confederacy be a compromise? No one is pretending that it hasn't been used as a symbol for those hate groups. What the problem is it being shoved down our throats that we have to remove it with no open discussion and no compromise. The flag doesn't mean the same thing everytime you see it or to everyone.

And when action is started to remove the flag, immediately the calls start for removing portraits, statues, memorials, names and a sticker from a toy car! The south starts to feel as though we have no voice in our own states! And please understand, I do mot mean the white folks in the south, the south as a whole.

Oh heck yeah. We v spoke with the defensive line coach about it. He even admitted to the problems they have recruiting Northern Blacks. We went down for three days.
The problem is the fear is real and palpable. We knew the school was/is a good school but we did struggle with him living some where, where we worry that the "culture" firmly embraces what the rebel flag stands for.

Now the timing is totally political. I whole heartedly agree with that BUT the intense symbolism of that flag is not. We 100% have legitimate reasons to want to see it go

And once again wee are not talking about personal property I will and always will fight for anyone's right to have it but I have a hard time with a state saying yeah we care about all our citizens while waving a flag that means violence.
Could they do that with the swastika?

Let me also ask, do you honestly believe integration would have happened without being forced?? It would not have. It took federal guards to FORCE a school to allow black kids in. It took an act of CONGRESS to allow us to vote without being lynched for it.

Winston Churchill said it best, America will d o the right thing only after there is no other alternative.
Real change is ALWAYS forced.

 

[luvsJack]

But yet they have never had an issue recruiting southern blacks. Wouldn't that tell you that perhaps the fear wasn't real? The rebel flag was used by the school to represent their mascot, at the time.

The flag represents hate to some because a small group of men decided to use it for such. The swastika was not used by a small group, there is a difference.

And I ask again, if the rebel flag is removed, in your opinion, is the actual confederate flag an acceptable compromise? And I am not talking about personal property either. I am talking about at civil war memorials and such. Which, btw, is a memorial for all southerners who died of any race.

 

[CPT Tripss]

If there was such abject burning concern over "stereotypical" brand icons (which is now code for anything vintage) why wasn't it being voiced before the Charleston incident? Why wasn't the NAACP imploring Pepsi (the owner of the Aunt Jemima brand) years ago to put her to rest?

Bottom line: they weren't, because there wasn't burning concern, because said images weren't particularly controversial.

It has just now -- because of a tragedy -- become immediately easy and fashionable for the PC crowd to find racism in everything. That is creating a literal (and ugly) witch-hunt environment where fanatical zealots are almost falling over themselves, competing to see who can come up with the most creative and arcane examples of "racist" symbols that need to be banned. It's only a matter of time until we will be hearing that the song "White Christmas" needs to be retired and use of the term "blacklist" forbidden.

Remember that casual, quick service food place, Sambo's?

 

[CPT Tripss]

But yet they have never had an issue recruiting southern blacks. Wouldn't that tell you that perhaps the fear wasn't real? The rebel flag was used by the school to represent their mascot, at the time.

The flag represents hate to some because a small group of men decided to use it for such. The swastika was not used by a small group, there is a difference.

And I ask again, if the rebel flag is removed, in your opinion, is the actual confederate flag an acceptable compromise? And I am not talking about personal property either. I am talking about at civil war memorials and such. Which, btw, is a memorial for all southerners who died of any race.

I think you over state Ole Miss recruiting. The had some success, but the were players the lost out on, and others they didn't pursue.

 

[eliza61]

But yet they have never had an issue recruiting southern blacks. Wouldn't that tell you that perhaps the fear wasn't real? The rebel flag was used by the school to represent their mascot, at the time.

The flag represents hate to some because a small group of men decided to use it for such. The swastika was not used by a small group, there is a difference.

And I ask again, if the rebel flag is removed, in your opinion, is the actual confederate flag an acceptable compromise? And I am not talking about personal property either. I am talking about at civil war memorials and such. Which, btw, is a memorial for all southerners who died of any race.

Oh heck yeah. Girl, I am the first to admit that a part of the neurosis is in many folks heads, it's part of the struggle we as a people have in moving forward. I liken it to a dog that's been constantly abused, when the next owner comes along it's real hard for the dog to trust again.
I really try hard not to project it on the dynamic duo or at least talk openly. It gives me a huge amount of respect for my parents who sent us down South in the 50's 0r 60's. I often wonder if I would have had the gumption. I remember the huuuuge argument my mom and dad had when the 6th street Baptist church got bombed. pop was straight up, "send my kids home NOW". lol

Now I have to google, and maybe this is a great opportunity to spread the word. I never knew there was a official confederate flag. I thought the rebel one was it.
Civil war memorials and museums are exactly where I expect to see the rebel flag because imo those have a different meaning/intention behind them. Even memorials about Confederate generals should be preserved. once again I am in no way trying to sanitize, varnish or remove any part of history. You tell the story of the monument in the content of the day.

BUT, federal, state, local buildings, library's etc are building of today supposedly designed for ALL people and once again in no way can you separate that flag from the monstrosity committed under it's banner with the full support of those flying it.

just my take. off to google.

edited: interesting enough the wiki article explains why it has such negative connetations.

Southern historian Gordon Rhea further wrote in 2011 that:

It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the negro is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population

 

[CPT Tripss]

You might also want to look into "myth of the lost cause."

 

[TLSnell1981]

I do not know the South described in the article in the above post. Is this what people are taught? Reality is a bit more complex, not so neat, tidy and wrapped in a flag.

I'm beginning to wonder, what or who is the real target? I'm doubting more and more, that it's simply about a flag, monument or memorial. Wow, makes my head spin.

 

[dinolounger]

Just because YOU are just hearing about this issue, doesn't mean that the black community hasn't spent DECADES voicing their concerns about it.

With all due respect, are you actually implying Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben and Cream of Wheat has been been core issues for the black community? More important than voting rights and equal employment opportunity? If they have been a point of contention for "decades." why were they not even raised on this thread until I mentioned them as a likely next target for the cultural cleansing crowd?

Remember that casual, quick service food place, Sambo's?

Yes, which went out of business due to issues with franchise agreements and manager compensation, not due to pressure from cultural cleansing. And for those interested, the original Sambo's in Santa Barbara, CA is still open. Quick, organize a vandalism mob and deface that hateful, evil dining spot ASAP!!!

 

[dinolounger]

I'm beginning to wonder, what or who is the real target? I'm doubting more and more, that it's simply about a flag, monument or memorial.

Your concerns are justified, for the real agenda of the cultural cleaners is not just to remove the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia from public display.

Their real agenda is to isolate and weaken the entire South as a cultural and political force. The fact the South is a bastion for traditional, institutional American culture is a thorn in the side of the cultural cleaners. They also hate the fact is it is is an electoral geographic stronghold for a political party they view as the opposition. Lastly, the low tax, less regulated South also happens to be doing quite well economically, which also bugs the heck out the cleansers.

All of these are reasons they despise the South and are using the tragedy in Charleston as an excuse to try and demonize the history and traditions of the entire South, as a means to ostracize and marginalize it.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Hmm, I have never heard anyone say they despise the south.

 

[eliza61]

Your concerns are justified, for the real agenda of the cultural cleaners is not just to remove the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia from public display.

Their real agenda is to isolate and weaken the entire South as a cultural and political force. The fact the South is a bastion for traditional, institutional American culture is a thorn in the side of the cultural cleaners. They also hate the fact is it is is an electoral geographic stronghold for a political party they view as the opposition. Lastly, the low tax, less regulated South also happens to be doing quite well economically, which also bugs the heck out the cleansers.

All of these are reasons they despise the South and are using the tragedy in Charleston as an excuse to try and demonize the history and traditions of the entire South, as a means to ostracize and marginalize it.

Wait, did Charleston move since last Wednesday??? the people who first got pissed that the rebel flag was not lowered where from Charleston. they despise where they live?

What the heck is institutional "America" culture?? what racism is institutionalized?? and that's a good thing??

Exactly what are those " traditional" cultures that they are trying to cleanse??

Ok this one definitely is bizarre to me.

 

[dinolounger]

Hmm, I have never heard anyone say they despise the south.

You must have never spent time on college campuses like Columbia and Rutgers or reading comments on The Huffington Post.

Wait, did Charleston move since last Wednesday??? the people who first got pissed that the rebel flag was not lowered where from Charleston. they despise where they live?

They weren't burning the battle flag in Charleston. But "progressives" in Philadelphia were:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...Liberty-Bell-Independence-Mall-308642761.html

What the heck is institutional "America" culture??

Southern example? Virginia military institute

Exactly what are those " traditional" cultures that they are trying to cleanse??