Unfathomable: Church Massacre

Let's see what a son of a son of a son of the Confereracy has to say.

So from my standpoint, I think it was the appropriate thing to do. I’m sorry if some people are upset about it, and I would ask that they look into their heart and really try to understand what the Civil War was about. Again, there is heritage there, and I would be remiss to not acknowledge my heritage, but the heritage that appreciates the Civil War when the predominant factor was to continue the act of slavery is just not something that I want to continue to celebrate. So I see this flag flying, to me and others who have that heritage, as a symbol of hatred that needs to be brought down.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/06/29/confederate-flag-south-carolina
 
I am so sad this thread turned into a flag debate. And here I was worried about a gun debate. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately we never got to talk about the people this thread was intended to talk about: the victims.

Nobody even brought up the services or any of the other good things associated with this tragedy.

I also find it ironic that some who are complaining about others are doing the exact same thing.

What a waste.

There was another thread looking for people to talk about the flag debate.

It could have been a constructive discussion if people would have said, that flag is hurtful to me, or conversely meaningful to me, because of X, Y and Z. And perhaps if the feelings on both sides were more understood from both perspectives it could remove a lot of the suspicion and animosity that's flowing both ways. Ironically that's the part that's most important to reaching a solution to close the racial divide -- getting people to talk to each other and understand each other.
 
Sorry, I know who started the trainwreck. There were a few rumblings, but when the bat signal went out, and the caped crusaders arrived...it was done. There were several attempts to get back on track, but..oh well. Some cannot tolerate a civil discussion, so they need to shut it down.

Tin foil hat? Nice. Some never change.
There was no "bat signal" *sheesh*. The flag was first mentioned on page 2 and by the next morning after the shooting after the initial shock wore off many people in the real world were questioning why the flag flew on the capitol grounds. That conversation naturally heated up here in this thread because we were already talking about the shooting itself. There is nothing nefarious or calculated in the subject of conversation.

I'm sorry that that thread didn't stay on the track the OP had hoped for, but that's the DIS.
 

I am so sad this thread turned into a flag debate. And here I was worried about a gun debate. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately we never got to talk about the people this thread was intended to talk about: the victims.

Nobody even brought up the services or any of the other good things associated with this tragedy.

I also find it ironic that some who are complaining about others are doing the exact same thing.

What a waste.

There was another thread looking for people to talk about the flag debate.


Here's hoping folks will read the entire piece. And the links too.

In an essay Monday, Stacey Patton, a professor of American history at American University, said black forgiveness has “become a requirement” and “black families are expected . . . to offer comfort, redemption, and a pathway to a new day.”

When mass killing victims have been largely white, we have not often heard, or expected, those same calls for forgiveness.

When it was announced in May that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, convicted of killing three and injuring hundreds in the Boston Marathon bombing, was to receive the death penalty, many victims and family members cheered the sentence,called it a “good feeling” and said he should be “tortured.” Another person was glad he was going to hell.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...c056ad8a_story.html?wpisrc=nl_optimist&wpmm=1
 
To say that you don't think the flag should not be flown because the south lost, shows that you have no understanding for the south and what it means to those who live here.

You are 100% correct. I truly do not understand. I do, in general, understand cultural moors and heritage. Obviously I understand those in my area (settled by German immigrants in the 1740's). But I don't understand why Southern pride is attached to a flag used in the Civil War. I'm serious. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me.
 
You are 100% correct. I truly do not understand. I do, in general, understand cultural moors and heritage. Obviously I understand those in my area (settled by German immigrants in the 1740's). But I don't understand why Southern pride is attached to a flag used in the Civil War. I'm serious. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me.

Do you understand why US citizens rally around the Stars and Stripes that the flag was a symbol of our country fighting for freedom and against tyranny? If you do, then you understand why some Southerners have pride in the flag of Northern Virginia. Even though the Civil War was lost, the Southern people fought for freedom and against tyranny and their descendents are proud that they took a stand.
 
Really? Can't you make your point without clearly bringing politics in the discussion in such insulting way?

Lets see - you feel it's insulting to point out that most of those calling for the banning of a particular flag are from regions of the country with a particular partisan skew.

Would you also agree that it's insulting for those from said regions to taunt southerners over and over again with "you lost, we won" badgering?

Would you also agree that said "argument" reflects an insulting, zealous diminishing of the entire historic legacy of a huge swath of our nation?

Just curious as to whether you realize the element of "insulting" unfortunately cuts both ways in the discussion going on in this thread. ;)
 
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You still have your freedom of speech. You, Disneychick75 and everyone else for that matter, can let the Stars and Bars fly on your own property or hold and wave it in your very own hand. Knock yourself out because that flag for your personal use and display is covered under the First Amendment :thumbsup2!

Kind of hard to do, if I was so inclined, because Amazon for sure, and maybe other retailers have heard from on high, that the flag of Northern Virginia is a prohibited item. They are forbidden to sell it. Now, if someone wants to buy swastikas, other Nazi items, or Nation Of Islam flags, Amazon still sells them
 
Here's hoping folks will read the entire piece. And the links too.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...c056ad8a_story.html?wpisrc=nl_optimist&wpmm=1

Maybe I am misunderstanding the writer. Who called for anyone to forgive the shooter? They have every right to their anger and their grief. They chose to forgive him because that is what is in their hearts. Them forgiving this young man isn't about being black. Its about their faith and finding their strength through that faith. Giving forgivness allows you to heal, anger tears you apart.
 
You are 100% correct. I truly do not understand. I do, in general, understand cultural moors and heritage. Obviously I understand those in my area (settled by German immigrants in the 1740's). But I don't understand why Southern pride is attached to a flag used in the Civil War. I'm serious. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me.

Southern pride isn't just about a flag. Its about everything about the south. Its about being southern and taking a stand for what we believe in. Its about coming together as communities and banding together to help each other out in bad times and celebrating the good ones. Its about remebering where we came from. Remembering being down and out and fighting our way back.

If all of this had stayed just about the one flag in the one place, country wide debates and arguements would have died down but it spread to amazon not selling flags to toy cars being stripped of stickers to a state flag being villified to talk of monuments being removed. We fill pushed into a corner. And one thing has not changed. That flag, that car and our state flag did NOT cause the death of 9 innocent people.
 
There was no "bat signal" *sheesh*. The flag was first mentioned on page 2 and by the next morning after the shooting after the initial shock wore off many people in the real world were questioning why the flag flew on the capitol grounds. That conversation naturally heated up here in this thread because we were already talking about the shooting itself. There is nothing nefarious or calculated in the subject of conversation.

I'm sorry that that thread didn't stay on the track the OP had hoped for, but that's the DIS.
Yes, and it's been an interesting conversation, I guess. I found it cryptic at times and wasn't always sure what people were talking about, lol. But I did some research on my own based on people's posts and I'll say, I learned a lot. So thank you, all. I just didn't want a long, drawn out debate to overshadow the humanistic part of the story, but I guess that is what makes the Dis what it is. It's all good.

dinolounger said:
Lets see - you feel it's insulting to point out that most of those calling for the banning of a particular flag are from regions of the country with a particular partisan skew.

Are you sure about that? I tried to see if there were any facts about that, and I was unable to find anything other than what I'll post here. But it seems to me, from what I've read, that there are a lot of folks from the south who, as you put it, are "callling for a banning of the flag" as well. At any rate, these "north/south" posts always amaze me because it's not how I see it at all. But I guess that's neither here, nor there.
 
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(I decided to break that up into two posts.)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/2926/americans-divided-southern-states-flying-confederate-flag.aspx

Note: this was from 2000

Americans Divided on Southern States Flying Confederate Flag
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- A prominent issue during the South Carolina primary last February revolved around the presidential candidates' views about South Carolina's practice of flying the Confederate flag over the Statehouse. Late last month, Senator John McCain apologized for not having spoken out against the practice during the primary itself, admitting that at the time he refrained from expressing what he truly felt so that he would not alienate primary voters in the state. The South Carolina House of Representatives begins today to debate a bill, already passed by that state's Senate, which would require the flag to be taken down from the South Carolina Statehouse.

Where does the public stand on this issue? Overall, Americans are divided on whether it's all right or not for Southern states to fly the flag -- 46% approve, while 44% want the practice stopped. This represents a slight erosion in support for the flag being flown compared to eight years ago. In 1992, 55% approved, while 40% disapproved.

Despite McCain's recent apology, Republicans across the country continue to say that they support flying the flag, by a 55% to 32% margin. Democrats, on the other hand, are opposed by a 57% to 38% margin, while independents are more like Republicans, approving of the practice by 47% to 42%. Additionally, Southerners are not strongly different from the other regions of the country in terms of their support for a state's flying the Confederate flag above its state capitol building.

The poll shows that only 11% of all Americans say they have followed the Confederate flag issue "very" closely, while another 37% say they have followed it "somewhat" closely. Fifty-two percent say they have not been following it closely. Those paying the most attention to the issue are a little more opposed to Southern states' flying the flag than are others -- the most attentive by 52% to 41%, and the somewhat attentive by 49% to 44%. People who say they have followed the issue only minimally divide evenly between support and opposition, while those who say they have not followed the issue at all support flying the flag by 53% to 32%.

Apart from their feelings about flying the Confederate flag, only 28% of Americans say that the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism, while 59% of Americans say the flag is more a symbol of Southern pride. This represents a slight decrease in the "Southern pride" position since 1992, when 69% said that this was what the flag represented, as opposed to racism. This pattern is the same for those who have followed the issue closely as it is for Americans overall. Although Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to say the flag is a symbol of Southern pride (by 74% to 16%), even Democrats express this view by a plurality of 48% to 40%.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People began a boycott of South Carolina in January of this year, and almost 100 meetings and conventions have been moved from the state as a result. The National Collegiate Athletic Association has also recently said that it may consider canceling the 2002 men's college basketball regional tournament in Greenville if the flag is not removed.

Americans are firmly opposed to such boycotts, however, by a 65% to 27% margin. Even Democrats oppose the idea of boycotts of South Carolina, by 54% to 39%, while Republicans oppose it by a larger margin, 78% to 16%.

Survey MethodsThe results reported here are based on telephone interviews with a randomly selected national sample of 1,031 adults, 18 years and older, conducted May 5-7, 2000. For results based on this sample, one can say with 95 percent confidence that the maximum error attributable to sampling and other random effects is plus or minus 3 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

As you may know, several Southern states fly some form of the Confederate flag on top of their state capitol buildings. Do you think it's all right for these states to fly the Confederate flag, or do you think they should stop this practice?


All right to fly


Stop this practice

No opinion


2000 May 5-7

46%

44

10


1992 Dec 4-6

55%

40

5



Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride, or more as a symbol of racism?


Southern pride

Racism

BOTH EQUALLY (vol.)

NEITHER (vol.)

No opinion


2000 May 5-7

59%

28

5

4

4


1992 Dec 4-6

69%

22

2

3

4



As you may know, the use of the Confederate flag in South Carolina has been in the news recently. How closely have you been following the news on this issue -- very closely, somewhat closely, not too closely, or not at all closely?


Very closely

Somewhat closely

Not too closely

Not at all closely

No
opinion



2000 May 5-7

11%

37

28

24

*



As you may know, some groups are saying that they will boycott South Carolina -- by not traveling or scheduling sporting events or conferences there -- until South Carolina removes the Confederate flag from all public places. Do you support or oppose this boycott of South Carolina?


Support

Oppose

No opinion


2000 May 5-7

27%

65

8



* Less than 0.5% (vol.) Volunteered response
 
So true about the families and forgiveness, luvsJack. The victims and their families truly "walk the walk," and I hope that if I am ever faced with such grief at the hands of evil, I can be as strong and full of grace as they are. I discovered during a conversation with two acquaintances that one is related to the young man and his great aunt who were killed, and the other was a college classmate of another of the Emanuel nine. We have had several tearful conversations over the past week and a half. I asked about the little 5 year old girl who played dead during the shooting so she wouldn't be killed - she and Rev. Simmons were taken to the hospital, and she lived but Rev. Simmons did not. I had not heard anything about her since the day after, and I am thankful that she is going to be okay, but what trauma she must have endured.

There have been some hate groups who have come to the city trying to capitalize on the grief and the flag issue, and they have been told to leave by the very people they were trying to incite. We don't play that here :). A hate group was marching down the street to the church right before a funeral yesterday, and a young lady, Dawn Hill, began to sing Amazing Grace, and the crowd joined in and drowned out the chants of the hate group, who then left. (Short video can be found on the internet - taken by a bystander) Love wins.

Like I said earlier, when the media has left, we are still here for our neighbors at Emanuel. The bond between the churches, synagogues and religious groups in our city has been and continues to be strong, based on mutual respect and the eagerness to learn from each other. I know from our neighbor AME church that when their pastor is preaching at our church on one of our "neighbor Sundays" that "The more the people say 'Amen,' the shorter the sermon." Amen!
 
That flag, that car and our state flag did NOT cause the death of 9 innocent people.

But who do we blame, then? Society needs to assign blame on something we can see and understand, and the media needs something to write about!

I just thought of something - I'll bet a dollar that is was the gun lobby that started the "flag debate". Sure as heck has taken all the attention.
 
But who do we blame, then? Society needs to assign blame on something we can see and understand, and the media needs something to write about!

I just thought of something - I'll bet a dollar that is was the gun lobby that started the "flag debate". Sure as heck has taken all the attention.

So true, so true. Lets see, we have blamed music, video games, guns and now a flag. Such murdeous inanimate objects!
 
Do you understand why US citizens rally around the Stars and Stripes that the flag was a symbol of our country fighting for freedom and against tyranny? If you do, then you understand why some Southerners have pride in the flag of Northern Virginia. Even though the Civil War was lost, the Southern people fought for freedom and against tyranny and their descendents are proud that they took a stand.

This particular flag pretty much stayed out of the public eye until the late 1940s. Then the Dixiecrats brought it out after Truman integrated the military, attempted to get Civil Rights Laws passed and lynching was made a federal crime. That's also when Ole Miss started using it at football games.

It's display erupted in the early 60s when the segregationists brought it out again when Ole Miss was being desegregated and when George Wallace uttered the infamous "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

That's the history of the symbol, if that's "southern pride," and honoring the confederate soldiers, where was it for 80 plus years?
 
Poverty, lack of education and family structure, removing particular views, morals and values from schools, public places, etc. etc etc...
 
Lets see - you feel it's insulting to point out that most of those calling for the banning of a particular flag are from regions of the country with a particular partisan skew.
You can say what you want without painting a whole section of the county "cultural cleansers". Yes, I find that insulting (as was intended) and your use of "red state" and "blue state" is very political.

Would you also agree that it's insulting for those from said regions to taunt southerners over and over again with "you lost, we won" badgering?

Would you also agree that said "argument" reflects an insulting, zealous diminishing of the entire historic legacy of a huge swath of our nation?

Just curious as to whether you realize the element of "insulting" unfortunately cuts both ways in the discussion going on in this thread. ;)
Pssssst. The Confederacy lost and we all won because of it. If you don't understand that then perhaps you should emmigrate elsewhere.
 
Kind of hard to do, if I was so inclined, because Amazon for sure, and maybe other retailers have heard from on high, that the flag of Northern Virginia is a prohibited item. They are forbidden to sell it. Now, if someone wants to buy swastikas, other Nazi items, or Nation Of Islam flags, Amazon still sells them
Sorry, but that's capitalism knowing what is good for them. Many times momentum doesn't turn on a subject until businesses push it in a certain direction. In this case, it's crystal clear that the major retailers don't want anything to do with the Stars and Bars. Don't worry, though! I'm sure you can find your Confederate can koozies somewhere on the internet. Look! On my first page of results: http://shop.bucknwild.com/Decals-Stickers-Koozies-Coozies-Can-Huggers_c10.htm . You're welcome.
 












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