Trusting Someone

[sk!mom]

Something else just occurred to me OP...

Maybe you are more referring to your DD having an independent spirit. As in she makes her own decisions, isn't easily swayed by others, etc...

But I would question that, as well. She followed a sibling into a business/hobby. She left your home to move in with the first serious bf. She questions herself and feels guilty when the bf challenges her (we can't afford gas/ you're leaving me on Christmas Eve?) Talks to you daily and sometimes several times a day. None of this sounds like a girl with an independent spirit.

Truly not trying to beat you up or pile on. Your DD sounds like many 19 year olds- just starting to figure stuff out. Except for the part where she moved in and decided to marry a controlling man so young. I just really feel like you need to get a clearer picture on this situation.

I also followed "Class of" threads and from there it seemed to me that you were initially fine with your DD moving in and planning a wedding. Both of which I would have strongly discouraged and certainly not supported.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This is a very good question! If she has stopped spending time with friends, then this is a huge red flag.

In most healthy relationships, a partner would encourage time with friends because they too want to keep those friend relationships.

This is what I was getting at upthread but Morgan said it perfectly.

By comparison, my DD21 has lived 4 years away for all of college. In the dorm 1 year and now this is the 3rd year in an apartment with roommates. She works part time for gas and spending money. We pay all school expenses after scholarships, still have her on our insurances and cell plan, and give her a monthly stipend to cover groceries and living.

She's independent in that she manages the money that she earns and we give. However, we call this baby adulting and not true independence. She manages day to day life, has kept the same job all 4 years, and keeps up with school on her own. But she is far from truly independent since we (her parents) are still providing 90% of her livelihood. She'll graduate in May, move to a new city, start that first adult job, take over her own expenses, we'll cut the monthly stipend, and THEN she'll be independent.

A 19 year old who has never paid her own bills and has only lived with parents and now an adult bf has never been independent in my view.

I moved out of my parents house and paid my own way for everything beginning when I was 18. All I could afford was to rent a room then, as I had to pay for rent, car, food, tuition, everything. I had little back up. As I said, I was motivated for independence based on what I'd observed in my own parents' marriage, and my mother's inability to leave when she needed to.

It's interesting comparing my background to my daughter's. She's grown up with a good home life, a stable parental marriage, and plenty of support, so it may not be as pressing to her, as it was to me, to strive for a relationship that's true and equal. I think she was probably naive in that way, but she's learning. As I mentioned earlier, she had one relationship that, on the surface, appeared to be pretty good, but was actually borderline abusive, which we didn't realize until after it was over. In a subsequent relationship, she had one thing happen that set her spidey sense off, but she was able to handle it really well and set limits so that going forward, the expectation was that it wouldn't happen again. (And if it did, that was it.)

Kids can only know what they've lived. Sometimes, depending on their backgrounds, it may take one person in the relationship to get a handle on things and make sure everyone's being respectful and caring, etc. People are allowed to make mistakes, but what happens afterward is most telling.

To complicate matters in this age group, they have the pressures of social media and dating apps like Tinder that can make it quite difficult to know what's right, where they stand on issues, how to recognize when someone's not treating them well, etc. Probably all the more reason why it's important for today's young women to be well prepared for life and all that they're going to have to deal with.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Yes, I had only mentioned time with the OP, gas money, etc... being an issue for this guy.
But, I would bet, with no hesitation, that any other time, or money, of her own, time with friends, etc.. are also an issue here.

One can't see the factors and issues that have contributed to the situation, unless they stop justifying everything, and looking for a better approach.

On some underlying level, instead of empowering the daughter, I am afraid that the daughter has, from a very young age, on some subliminal level, absorbed the 'lens' and 'attitudes' that tell her that she is:

Like an immature "little sister"...
Should be okay with a man supporting her, advising her, influencing/controlling her.
As a woman, she should, just naturally, automatically "trust" men/her man. (the title of this thread still gets to me, especially given what I know about the OP's personal history)
Perhaps women should be more subjective to men. (maybe the word subjective is not right, but the right word just isn't coming to me right now)
Etc....

 

[sk!mom]

I think you were looking for submissive.

 

[gotomu212]

Also, does your daughter see her friends at all, for like nights out? I'm guessing no, if he was mad that she left an hour early for Christmas Eve. Do any of her friends live near them? And what do they think of the BF? Often friends have a much better perspective that we do as parents.

Ugh I really don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending everything about this relationship but so many of these examples seem to have reasonable explanations. Christmas Eve is a special holiday, and if I had to work on Christmas Eve I would sad and would want to try to spend some special time with my fiancé and have a mini-celebration before I had to go to work. If he had to leave an hour early and cut short our time together I would be really disappointed. I’d like to think I’d take it good naturedly, but honestly I’d probably say things like are you sure you can’t wait one more hour with me, or can’t you tell everyone you’ll be an hour late after all they’ll get to spend the whole night with you.

Another thing that was said in the original post was that when they visited on nights he worked he wanted to meet them for dinner. This was taken as he was isolating her, but I read it as a) they are there when he’s at work so they are getting time with her alone and b) he thinks he’s being a nice fiancé by seeing his future inlaws for dinner even though he can’t spend the whole visit with them.

Another post said that when he thought her parents were upset over something with her school performance he said she needed to move home because he didn’t want to be seen as the reason she didn’t finish school. That upset the daughter and mom was upset that he made her cry....but was he actually trying to be responsible as the older already graduated one saying hey if I’m distracting you maybe you should go live at home until you graduate and then we can focus on us?

Maybe that’s not how these things are actually playing out. But between the above, and the wedding planning complaints I see someone trying to fit routine relationship struggles into an abusive pattern (and it seems like the OP didn’t think there was anything wrong with him until she heard some rumors in the wrestling community that he was trying to get back with the ex and was abusive towards her- I would definetely pay attention to rumors like that but I’d also take them with a grain of salt).

If this were my daughter, or sister, or friend I would keep my eyes and ears open for signs of abuse, but I would really back off making every disagreement into a red flag. I see a mom jumping into an adult relationship and trying to make any slight against her daughter a mark against the fiancé (what my daughter wants she’ll get was a comment on the nighttime wedding theme).

My own mother, who is incredibly wise and supportive, told me very early in my marriage that there wasn’t room for a mother in law in a marriage when I was trying to get her to take my side in an argument I was having with my husband (over something silly that I think was really irrationally upsetting me). She said I am always here to help you if you are in trouble or if you need support or if you just want a shoulder to occasionally cry or vent on, but you are an adult, and marriage is work, and you both need to figure out how to partner each other without a mom standing behind you with a rolling pin.

Just edited to add that I really am trying to say these things kindly. The OP seems to be open to the comments people are adding and is just trying to do right by her daughter. I could be completely off base but am trying to show that there could be a different side to the story and it’s worth thinking about how she’s approaching this.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Ugh I really don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending everything about this relationship but so many of these examples seem to have reasonable explanations. Christmas Eve is a special holiday, and if I had to work on Christmas Eve I would sad and would want to try to spend some special time with my fiancé and have a mini-celebration before I had to go to work. If he had to leave an hour early and cut short our time together I would be really disappointed. I’d like to think I’d take it good naturedly, but honestly I’d probably say things like are you sure you can’t wait one more hour with me, or can’t you tell everyone you’ll be an hour late after all they’ll get to spend the whole night with you.

Another thing that was said in the original post was that when they visited on nights he worked he wanted to meet them for dinner. This was taken as he was isolating her, but I read it as a) they are there when he’s at work so they are getting time with her alone and b) he thinks he’s being a nice fiancé by seeing his future inlaws for dinner even though he can’t spend the whole visit with them.

Another post said that when he thought her parents were upset over something with her school performance he said she needed to move home because he didn’t want to be seen as the reason she didn’t finish school. That upset the daughter and mom was upset that he made her cry....but was he actually trying to be responsible as the older already graduated one saying hey if I’m distracting you maybe you should go live at home until you graduate and then we can focus on us?

Maybe that’s not how these things are actually playing out. But between the above, and the wedding planning complaints I see someone trying to fit routine relationship struggles into an abusive pattern (and it seems like the OP didn’t think there was anything wrong with him until she heard some rumors in the wrestling community that he was trying to get back with the ex and was abusive towards her- I would definetely pay attention to rumors like that but I’d also take them with a grain of salt).

If this were my daughter, or sister, or friend I would keep my eyes and ears open for signs of abuse, but I would really back off making every disagreement into a red flag. I see a mom jumping into an adult relationship and trying to make any slight against her daughter a mark against the fiancé (what my daughter wants she’ll get was a comment on the nighttime wedding theme).

My own mother, who is incredibly wise and supportive, told me very early in my marriage that there wasn’t room for a mother in law in a marriage when I was trying to get her to take my side in an argument I was having with my husband (over something silly that I think was really irrationally upsetting me). She said I am always here to help you if you are in trouble or if you need support or if you just want a shoulder to occasionally cry or vent on, but you are an adult, and marriage is work, and you both need to figure out how to partner each other without a mom standing behind you with a rolling pin.

Just edited to add that I really am trying to say these things kindly. The OP seems to be open to the comments people are adding and is just trying to do right by her daughter. I could be completely off base but am trying to show that there could be a different side to the story and it’s worth thinking about how she’s approaching this.

Good post! You have an incredibly wise mother!

 

[cabanafrau]

Ugh I really don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending everything about this relationship but so many of these examples seem to have reasonable explanations. Christmas Eve is a special holiday, and if I had to work on Christmas Eve I would sad and would want to try to spend some special time with my fiancé and have a mini-celebration before I had to go to work. If he had to leave an hour early and cut short our time together I would be really disappointed. I’d like to think I’d take it good naturedly, but honestly I’d probably say things like are you sure you can’t wait one more hour with me, or can’t you tell everyone you’ll be an hour late after all they’ll get to spend the whole night with you.

Another thing that was said in the original post was that when they visited on nights he worked he wanted to meet them for dinner. This was taken as he was isolating her, but I read it as a) they are there when he’s at work so they are getting time with her alone and b) he thinks he’s being a nice fiancé by seeing his future inlaws for dinner even though he can’t spend the whole visit with them.

Another post said that when he thought her parents were upset over something with her school performance he said she needed to move home because he didn’t want to be seen as the reason she didn’t finish school. That upset the daughter and mom was upset that he made her cry....but was he actually trying to be responsible as the older already graduated one saying hey if I’m distracting you maybe you should go live at home until you graduate and then we can focus on us?

Maybe that’s not how these things are actually playing out. But between the above, and the wedding planning complaints I see someone trying to fit routine relationship struggles into an abusive pattern (and it seems like the OP didn’t think there was anything wrong with him until she heard some rumors in the wrestling community that he was trying to get back with the ex and was abusive towards her- I would definetely pay attention to rumors like that but I’d also take them with a grain of salt).

If this were my daughter, or sister, or friend I would keep my eyes and ears open for signs of abuse, but I would really back off making every disagreement into a red flag. I see a mom jumping into an adult relationship and trying to make any slight against her daughter a mark against the fiancé (what my daughter wants she’ll get was a comment on the nighttime wedding theme).

My own mother, who is incredibly wise and supportive, told me very early in my marriage that there wasn’t room for a mother in law in a marriage when I was trying to get her to take my side in an argument I was having with my husband (over something silly that I think was really irrationally upsetting me). She said I am always here to help you if you are in trouble or if you need support or if you just want a shoulder to occasionally cry or vent on, but you are an adult, and marriage is work, and you both need to figure out how to partner each other without a mom standing behind you with a rolling pin.

Just edited to add that I really am trying to say these things kindly. The OP seems to be open to the comments people are adding and is just trying to do right by her daughter. I could be completely off base but am trying to show that there could be a different side to the story and it’s worth thinking about how she’s approaching this.

It's definitely a good idea to look at the situation from a variety of perspectives, I agree with that wholeheartedly. OP can be giving a wholehearted and honest account, yet be an unreliable narrator all the same.

I do have to quibble over your coloring the dinners when they visit while he's at work. He's living with this woman, so presumably he gets to see her much more often than her family does. I agree it's nice that he might from time to time make the effort to meet them for dinner. It falls apart when you suggest that "they are there when he's at work so they are getting time with her alone". If the relationship is secure he won't care that she's spending time with her family without him & a visit while he's at work won't need to be logged and tabulated on either side. If he is indeed arranging it so that his presence is a part of every visit, that should be considered.

 

[gotomu212]

It's definitely a good idea to look at the situation from a variety of perspectives, I agree with that wholeheartedly. OP can be giving a wholehearted and honest account, yet be an unreliable narrator all the same.

I do have to quibble over your coloring the dinners when they visit while he's at work. He's living with this woman, so presumably he gets to see her much more often than her family does. I agree it's nice that he might from time to time make the effort to meet them for dinner. It falls apart when you suggest that "they are there when he's at work so they are getting time with her alone". If the relationship is secure he won't care that she's spending time with her family without him & a visit while he's at work won't need to be logged and tabulated on either side. If he is indeed arranging it so that his presence is a part of every visit, that should be considered.

You are right! I meant more that they are getting time alone with her while he was at work so from my perspective if they thought she was isolated and unable to ask for help because he was always hovering this is an opportunity to speak with her alone- he should absolutely not care that how much time they are with her. I was only speaking towards my family’s dynamic that my husband isn’t hanging with us during every family visit but does try to meet us for meals so that my family doesn’t think he’s rudely avoiding them.

 

[luvsJack]

Ugh I really don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending everything about this relationship but so many of these examples seem to have reasonable explanations. Christmas Eve is a special holiday, and if I had to work on Christmas Eve I would sad and would want to try to spend some special time with my fiancé and have a mini-celebration before I had to go to work. If he had to leave an hour early and cut short our time together I would be really disappointed. I’d like to think I’d take it good naturedly, but honestly I’d probably say things like are you sure you can’t wait one more hour with me, or can’t you tell everyone you’ll be an hour late after all they’ll get to spend the whole night with you.

Another thing that was said in the original post was that when they visited on nights he worked he wanted to meet them for dinner. This was taken as he was isolating her, but I read it as a) they are there when he’s at work so they are getting time with her alone and b) he thinks he’s being a nice fiancé by seeing his future inlaws for dinner even though he can’t spend the whole visit with them.

Another post said that when he thought her parents were upset over something with her school performance he said she needed to move home because he didn’t want to be seen as the reason she didn’t finish school. That upset the daughter and mom was upset that he made her cry....but was he actually trying to be responsible as the older already graduated one saying hey if I’m distracting you maybe you should go live at home until you graduate and then we can focus on us?

Maybe that’s not how these things are actually playing out. But between the above, and the wedding planning complaints I see someone trying to fit routine relationship struggles into an abusive pattern (and it seems like the OP didn’t think there was anything wrong with him until she heard some rumors in the wrestling community that he was trying to get back with the ex and was abusive towards her- I would definetely pay attention to rumors like that but I’d also take them with a grain of salt).

If this were my daughter, or sister, or friend I would keep my eyes and ears open for signs of abuse, but I would really back off making every disagreement into a red flag. I see a mom jumping into an adult relationship and trying to make any slight against her daughter a mark against the fiancé (what my daughter wants she’ll get was a comment on the nighttime wedding theme).

My own mother, who is incredibly wise and supportive, told me very early in my marriage that there wasn’t room for a mother in law in a marriage when I was trying to get her to take my side in an argument I was having with my husband (over something silly that I think was really irrationally upsetting me). She said I am always here to help you if you are in trouble or if you need support or if you just want a shoulder to occasionally cry or vent on, but you are an adult, and marriage is work, and you both need to figure out how to partner each other without a mom standing behind you with a rolling pin.

Just edited to add that I really am trying to say these things kindly. The OP seems to be open to the comments people are adding and is just trying to do right by her daughter. I could be completely off base but am trying to show that there could be a different side to the story and it’s worth thinking about how she’s approaching this.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the other side. I wanted that exact thing. Maybe you are right. Maybe he was really trying to do the right thing so many of these times.

It upset us when we were told the things we were told. And I can certainly accept that maybe we jumped the gun. And maybe we hurt his feelings more than anything else.

I don't want to make excuses for him and I don't want to accuse him or be suspicious of him either. I WANT to accept him in to our family. But I want my daughter to be ok too.

But, I will take your advise. I will back way up to the way it was before we heard these rumors. We have put the necessary information out there for dd. She knows we are here for her.
We need to stop seeing everything he does as a way to control and just watch from afar.

Again, thank you.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I wouldn't be too awfully far back, if I were watching this particular guy.

Justifications are just that... justifications.
I still can find no reasonable or positive justifications for some of the major things that the OP has described in this situation.

 

[Skywalker]

What exactly do you want me to do?

Stop answering the phone?

Make her get a job and give up the internship?

Go down and kidnap her and make her move home?

Tell her brothers not to look out for her?

I do want and expect her to be independent. And she always has been. He pays for the roof over her head but she is not dependent on that roof. She does not need him to do anything for her at this point nor will she after graduation. He is paying for it but she doesn't need it. There is a huge difference in needing someone to support you or help support you and having options at all times. One of the differences in her and the women he has dated is that she doesn't "need" him to do anything. Her objective is to graduate and get a job as a personal trainer. Her objective is to use her knowledge in that to help broaden the business that her and her brother have. Her ultimate goal is to own her own gym. She hasn't lost her sight on her goals. I can't fault him for making this a priority as it is one for her too. It is their priority.

We have talked at length about abuse and the signs. We have talked about why his ex saw things the way she did or why she said the things she did. And I will keep that dialogue open with her. We have talked about how hard marriage is at any age and how it changes, how each of you change. How what you love about him now, you will hate in a year.

He did say we should let him mom plan a cheap wedding. Its not going to happen. We have come to the agreement to put it on hold for a little while. I agree with the fact that he is quick to run to his mom. But I can't change that all I can do is guide dd to see it for herself. I have to be careful not to put her on the defensive about him because that will stop all conversations about him. I don't want to do that.

I can listen to the things that make her angry and tell her to "just pack up and come home" which is only going to make her mad or I can listen and guide her to make a choice of what she should do. The former turns off the dialogue, the latter keeps it open. And seeing it for herself is the ticket to her making the right choice. We have even had the conversation that at some point they will have an argument that is big enough that she will pack up and come home. Maybe for an hour, maybe a day, maybe a week and maybe for good. But when that happens, we are there if she wants to talk and we are there just to be there for her.

When I say her brother looks out for her, I don't mean he follows her around like a body guard. I mean he watches and listens and makes sure all is well. He doesn't let anyone take advantage of her and he does talk to her about it to show her what to watch out for. He is guiding her in this business. And it is a cut throat business, so his guidance is needed. He does give his opinion of things the bf says or does but honestly she takes it a little different from him. And if someone along the way tried to hurt her, I am sure they would have to answer to him but that isn't likely to happen.

I can sit here and say we made a grave mistake by not fighting her on moving in with him. But then were would we be right now? She would still be where she is, she would feel like she couldn't just tell us if something was wrong and she would feel like she really doesn't have options. That isn't better. And that is why we made the choice we made. She is 19 years old, as hard as it is, she is an adult.

I had to highlight the "quick to run to his mom" thing because it seems so hypocritical. Him "running" to his mom is painted as a bad thing, but your daughter calling you 4 times a day is a great thing? Your daughter can go to you, but he can't go to his mom? And, you can have an opinion on who's right in the wedding planning but she can't? You can stick up for your daughter but she can't stick up for her son?? He's young too, and supporting (yes, he is whether you can admit it or not) a young girlfriend, and figuring out life too. I'm sure he's flawed, but the problem seems to be once you cast someone as the villain, you begin to see every little thing they do through that lens, every interpretation becomes the worst possible one. Right now you're too invested in this "he's gonna be abusive" narrative...your daughter knows all the right things and has all the right people in her life. I think at this point (since she is an adult) you just have to back off and trust her.

 

[sk!mom]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the other side. I wanted that exact thing. Maybe you are right. Maybe he was really trying to do the right thing so many of these times.

It upset us when we were told the things we were told. And I can certainly accept that maybe we jumped the gun. And maybe we hurt his feelings more than anything else.

I don't want to make excuses for him and I don't want to accuse him or be suspicious of him either. I WANT to accept him in to our family. But I want my daughter to be ok too.

But, I will take your advise. I will back way up to the way it was before we heard these rumors. We have put the necessary information out there for dd. She knows we are here for her.
We need to stop seeing everything he does as a way to control and just watch from afar.

Again, thank you.

OP, please don't latch on to this one post saying what you want to hear.

And, above all, don't ignore the intuition that led you to start this thread to begin with. You KNOW this relationship is unhealthy but you are grasping at another justification.

 

[luvsJack]

I just wanted a view of someone that could see another side. I don’t want to be unfair. He is very different than my sons in a lot of ways. And I don’t want to judge him based on how they would handle something.

He is very private and worried about being judged for things. So perhaps we haven’t given it time to get to know him well enough. And I can certainly understand that he felt judged when we talked to them. We were perhaps wrong to address it the way we did and maybe we should have talked to dd alone.

I probably should address a lot of what has been said here but I agree that he is young too. He is getting started in his career (someone asked about wrestling, and no it’s not his career path) and trying to help dd get started in her’s. Maybe she shouldn’t be letting him pay the bulk of the bills but it’s a decision they came to together just as a married couple would do so I can’t really fault them for it. She will graduate in a few months and will be able to start working fairly immediately. She would not consider not working after working so hard to get there. I know that they do talk a lot about her future plans and their’s together.

When I think of my sons back at his age, they did come to me for advise. Well they still do but probably more so at his age. When eldest ds was his age, he and his first wife started having problems and he knew divorce was coming. He was heartbroken and he did come to me to cry and talk. So in thinking of that, perhaps we were unfair. We expected him to act older than we expect of dd when they really aren’t all that different.

And it has to be hard for him too. He is coming into a very close family with three men that adore his gf.

She is young and maybe some of our anxiety about her getting married has been seeping in. Her life has changed a lot since high school. Not just because of him but just the growing process.

OTOH, they say to trust your gut and with that we will keep tabs on what is going on. But by seeing the two of them or spending time with her and making sure things are ok. But pp is right in that perhaps it’s time to trust her to know what is right for her.

I thank everyone again as this has been helpful to think it all through.

When it comes time for the wedding plans to go forward, it just needs to be up to them. They need to sit down and figure out what they want. As long as they stay in budget, it just needs to be what makes them happy.

 

[Wishing on a star]

LuvsJack, please listen to skimom, above.

Sure, your sons are your sons, and you have an, assumed, good relationship with them.
You do talk with them, communicate with them, etc...
But, do you insist on meddling in their affairs and drama.
Do you contact them every day, sometimes multiple times in a day.
Do you refer to them and interact with them as little boys.. 'baby brother' (male version of 'little sister', or were they encouraged to be strong mature individuals, hanging out as adult men, drinking beer / near-beer, even as boys, with the men.

NOTE: I notice above, you said your son 'came to you'..... Which I think tells me a lot.
Did your daughter 'come to you' with all of this negative drama... or did you insert yourself.

Would you have been okay, and even encouraged your son's to live with and be dependent on a girlfriend?

I am not so sure that the three men in her family who adore your DD are a part of these issues at all.

You might put those very dark rose-colored glasses on, and try to avoid seeing the obvious...
And, from your post, and knowing what I am remembering of your past comments and posting... I am thinking that is exactly what is going on.

You had (after quoting me) said:

What exactly do you want me to do?
Stop answering the phone?
Make her get a job and give up the internship?
Go down and kidnap her and make her move home?
Tell her brothers not to look out for her?

I have said absolutely none of those things.
Others have suggested that you pull-back and refrain from being overly vested and involved in the personal things between her and her BF.... ( and I agree )
But, if you read my post, I also said that, with the current situation, you should 'be there' and maintain a good relationship with HER. That it would be a mistake to pull back FROM HER right now, which could contribute to that factor of 'isolation'.

ENABLE AND EMPOWER HER, NOT THAT RELATIONSHIP.
You have NOTHING to do with that relationship.

That is what it seems very obvious that you have not done in the past.

The comments that you make to try to 'explain' and 'justify' that you have tried to raise her to be strong and independent, that you have empowered her, and that she IS actually independent, just do not match up with what we are seeing as the reality.

I / we are just trying to be helpful here.
I hope you do know that.

To break this all down to the most basic and simple level.
As my simple and clear words of advice, I will repeat what I just said above....
ENABLE AND EMPOWER HER, NOT THAT RELATIONSHIP.
You have NOTHING to do with that relationship.

 

[mjkacmom]

I don’t think anyone should get married if there are any flags, especially a couple that hasn’t even known each other for even a year, especially a very young woman in her first relationship, especially a young man who has been dumped by several young women.

One of my good friends married her high school sweetheart, started dating at 15. She went away to college, he worked for her dad’s construction company. He came across as controlling, but he actually wasn’t, he was just scared she’d move on without him. So, he applied and got into college, graduated around the same time as she got her masters (she went on to get her doctorate), and they got married at 27 (and I think are celebrating 25 this year).

So, young people can stay together, but I think it’s best to build a solid foundation, because they are going to change in their early 20’s.

 

[Wishing on a star]

True!!!!!!
I was not 'young'....
But, ohhhhhhh, if what I knew now, I could have only known then!!!!!!

 

[luvsJack]

LuvsJack, please listen to skimom, above.

Sure, your son's are your son's, and you have an, assumed, good relationship with them.
You do talk with them, communicate with them, etc...
But, do you insist on meddling in their affairs and drama.
Do you contact them every day, sometimes multiple times in a day.
Do you refer to them and interact with them as little boys.. 'baby brother' (male version of 'little sister', or were they encouraged to be strong mature individuals, hanging out as adult men, drinking beer / near-beer, even as boys, with the men.

NOTE: I notice above, you said your son 'came to you'..... Which I think tells me a lot.
Did your daughter 'come to you' with all of this negative drama... or did you insert yourself.

Would you have been okay, and even encouraged your son's to live with and be dependent on a girlfriend?

I am not so sure that the three men in her family who adore your DD are a part of these issues at all.

You might put those very dark rose-colored glasses on, and try to avoid seeing the obvious...
And, from your post, and knowing what I am remembering of your past comments and posting... I am thinking that is exactly what is going on.

You had (after quoting me) said:


I have said absolutely none of those things.
Others have suggested that you pull-back and refrain from being overly vested and involved in the personal things between her and her BF.... ( and I agree )
But, if you read my post, I also said that, with the current situation, you should 'be there' and maintain a good relationship with HER. That it would be a mistake to pull back FROM HER right now, which could contribute to that factor of 'isolation'.

ENABLE AND EMPOWER HER, NOT THAT RELATIONSHIP.
You have NOTHING to do with that relationship.

That is what it seems very obvious that you have not done in the past.

The comments that you make to try to 'explain' and 'justify' that you have tried to raise her to be strong and independent, that you have empowered her, and that she IS actually independent, just do not match up with what we are seeing as the reality.

I / we are just trying to be helpful here.
I hope you do know that.

To break this all down to the most basic and simple level.
As my simple and clear words of advice, I will repeat what I just said above....
ENABLE AND EMPOWER HER, NOT THAT RELATIONSHIP.
You have NOTHING to do with that relationship.

I went to dd because the rumors came to me. I didn't know if she knew anything about them. I was offered the "proof" as was ds but none of us chose to even see it. We handled it the best we could think to do while not getting further involved and still trying to protect our daughter. And honestly we have rethought what we did. I don't know exactly what we would have done differently except perhaps insisting on talking to her alone. When DS came to me with his marital problems, I didn't know what was going on.

I would never pull away from her or my sons.

I never encouraged her to live with her bf. Ever. They were dating and we knew it was getting serious fast. DH and I talked a lot about how we were going to handle it. We never encouraged or discouraged her. We gave her the pros and cons of not being in the dorm and talked about not ever feeling like she can't move right back out of his house again. But ultimately it was her decision. It had to be.

Ok, so I actually googled "empowering your daughter" to see if maybe I am missing something. But honestly, there is nothing new. She has a high level of self confidence in most areas, she isn't afraid to try new things or to branch out into new things, she knows what she wants and she goes after it, she sets goals and meets them.

I think by me saying her brothers look after her, she is pictured as this weak little scared girl that only follows their lead. Not true at all. Mostly they look after her by having to run to keep up lol--figuratively speaking. She is always three steps ahead and going for what she wants. The wrestling thing came from what SHE wanted. Not to follow ds. She loves it and has for years.

But she is young and inexperienced when it comes to relationships. She went through a dozen guys that she "talked to" through high school and dated once or twice. She just refused to be treated the way some of them chose to treat girls. She wasn't willing to be there just when they called or throw down her plans because they suddenly called. I think when she met him and he truly gave her the attention and truly wanted to spend time with her it put some stars in her eyes. To know her, one would never think anyone could control her. My fear has always been that she just wouldn't see it as control but as love.

And I know you are just trying to be helpful, I really do.

 

[cabanafrau]

It might be illuminating for you to think about this, how would you have looked at a situation like this if your son was the one paying the freight on the room and board for a not so long-term, college-age girlfriend? The question is for you, not looking for an answer here. I simply think answering honestly in your own mind might help you open up your line of thinking in regard to a lot of issues.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I am sitting here guessing that the above question, and the answer to it, wouldn't reveal anything....
Because, she would be totally happy and fine with her sons having a young girl be dependent and submissive.
Any cost would not matter, at all.

The question should be, as mentioned... Would she have considered it a good idea for her young son(s) to give up their independence, and to move in with and be dependent on an older girlfriend. One who told him he shouldn't be spending time with his family, spending gas money, etc...

This older girlfriend "Has decided that she does not like DD."

And, to quote the OP, again: The girlfriend/fiance is known to be "mentally abusive part of which was cutting ex-boyfriend off from friends and family".

And, another kicker would be.... The older girlfriend's mother being constantly there, over-involved, in her son's personal life.... etc...

 

[sk!mom]

I went to dd because the rumors came to me. I didn't know if she knew anything about them. I was offered the "proof" as was ds but none of us chose to even see it.

You have mentioned this several times so I'll comment, Why would you go to anyone with a rumor? If someone told me something damaging about DD's boyfriend, I would definitely want proof before I blew things up so I don't understand why you blew it up but some how seem to think it was noble to decline the proof.

But I would reiterate that really that isn't the issue I see. The issue is an unhealthy relationship for your DD. Please listen to your intuition.