Trusting Someone

[cabanafrau]

Sorry, I can't get past the idea that the BF is paying her living expenses as no big deal. As a parent with one recent college graduate and the next a few months away from transferring from community college to university I am savoring the months of no room and board to pay for anybody. Room and board is a significant piece of the college expenses.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I also think that the OP has a, well, maybe slightly skewed take on this whole thing... and this guy supporting her DD, etc.
That is NO small thing.
I think I actually have a good feel for where this viewpoint is coming from with the OP.
I really think that this all runs so deep, that the OP really might not be able to see it all clearly, or will be able to understand where these recent comments are coming from.

I, also, think that she has overly-vested herself in the relationship, instead of vesting herself in looking out for her daughter, in the correct ways.

Especially as a mother, if my child were a young DD, I would never have begun to take these things lightly.... been fine with her moving in with him.... never been fine with him supporting her and providing basic needs, such as a roof over her head, food, personal necessities, etc...

I would never have been okay with my young DD moving in with him, before graduation which is coming up so soon... and then, after the fact, months too late, saying 'Should "I" trust Him'.

As a parent, with a child who is around this DD's age... Several times, I have been the one to see somebody who should not be trusted, and to do what I could to protect my child. I see that as part of my duty and obligation as a parent.

But, again, like I said earlier...
One has to deal with the here and now....
Not the coulda-woulda-shoulda's....
And, the very LAST thing I would want is for the BF and his family to feel that they have her an hour away, and her parents and family are really not present, clear and present, in the big picture.

While the OP should very very much refrain from involving herself, personally, in any way, with the personal life of her DD.
(which I am not so sure that she understands or can do....)
I think the very worst thing that could happen for the DD right now, is to feel like her family is 'pulling back', as a family, at all.

 

[Action City]

The business they're in (wrestling, right?) has a lot of machismo associated with it. Your daughter will need to think long and hard about what it will be like long term to live in this type of world. I can see how it's exciting to her right now, but how will she feel as she gets older, has kids, etc. I also think it's very different for men than it is for women to be involved in such a world, too. This guy might not be a bad guy, but may just be highly influenced by the culture they're involved in, which dictates how relationships are, women are treated, etc. Just food for thought. I know she initially entered the world with her brother, but now that dynamic has changed, and she's with a guy that she's not (yet) related to, and that is also is a lot different than a brother-sister type relationship.

I agree a lot with Morgan, that while she can, wouldn't it be preferable for her to start her adult life learning some of the joys of being an educated, independent, free to-do-as-she-pleases woman? Why get bogged down right now in this type of experience? There's plenty of time for that to come later! I also agree that she's, as is, not really independent if he's paying for rent, food, utilities. That makes her dependent on him, and he's likely to see things a certain way because of it, especially given their unique circumstances.

I know when DH and I moved in together, we split everything, and I worked two jobs while going to school in order to keep it that way, because it set the dynamic in our relationship. It was important to me to be able to support myself, because of what I'd grown up with, and my own mother's inability to do so when she needed to (given she was a child of the Depression and grew up in a time and place where women strived primarily to be "housewives"). Obviously not everyone has this issue to grapple with, but people can still learn from others' experiences and learn to make good decisions for themselves anyway. I hate to see any person be dominating in a relationship - ideally relationships are pretty equal, mutually respectful, etc. - unless all parties agree to something different. Young women need to be smart about how they start things off. There are so many issues they have to deal with today.

I do wish you luck dealing with this issue. I know, having a daughter (and son) the same age, that it's a fine line we walk when guiding, yet promoting their independence. I just think that turning 18 doesn't suddenly make one all of a sudden mature and able to make good decisions. That's a process. I can already see the difference between 18 and 20, but there's still a ways to go, obviously. It tells me a lot that the people of your state made the law about getting married at 21. There must've been good reason for that. I'd take more of a look at it.

People in her state can get married at 15 (for girls) and 17 (for boys) with parental permission.

 

[NHdisneylover]

People in her state can get married at 15 (for girls) and 17 (for boys) with parental permission.

A different age for girls than boys?! I can't think of any reasonable reason for that. Sheesh.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

People in her state can get married at 15 (for girls) and 17 (for boys) with parental permission.

Not without parental permission, which is what I meant.

ETA I was just looking up the laws in my own state which were as young as 12. I can only imagine those laws were still on the books from centuries ago. It's so obviously impractical I'm sure they've just left it there because it would be more trouble to change it than it's worth, since virtually no 12 year old would get married today.

But what I was getting at with my comment is, why is there a law in Mississippi that states that people can't get married until they're 21? Wouldn't that have been worth the effort to change if there wasn't some reason behind it? That is what I would like to know. I have googled and come up with relatively little.

Oh, and I believe it's the only state that has an age requirement of 21. (Nebraska is 19; all others 18.) I have to wonder if there is a socio-economic reason behind it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States

 

[Sydney2977]

Just out of curiosity, where was your DD living before she moved in with him?
If they suddenly break up for some reason, where would she move to? Does she have financial means to support herself while she finishes school?

While it is true that he has to pay for an apartment, electricity, etc. for himself anyway, that is a significant amount of money, as PP's have stated, that your DD is NOT having to pay. That is where some of us are coming from when we say she is financially dependent on him. He may say it's ok now, but if he is the controlling and/or emotionally abusive type, he may use this to hold against her later on down the line. Unfortunately, DH and I saw this plenty of times with young couples we knew.

 

[mjkacmom]

I also think that the OP has a, well, maybe slightly skewed take on this whole thing... and this guy supporting her DD, etc.
That is NO small thing.
I think I actually have a good feel for where this viewpoint is coming from with the OP.
I really think that this all runs so deep, that the OP really might not be able to see it all clearly, or will be able to understand where these recent comments are coming from.

I, also, think that she has overly-vested herself in the relationship, instead of vesting herself in looking out for her daughter, in the correct ways.

Especially as a mother, if my child were a young DD, I would never have begun to take these things lightly.... been fine with her moving in with him.... never been fine with him supporting her and providing basic needs, such as a roof over her head, food, personal necessities, etc...

I would never have been okay with my young DD moving in with him, before graduation which is coming up so soon... and then, after the fact, months too late, saying 'Should "I" trust Him'.

As a parent, with a child who is around this DD's age... Several times, I have been the one to see somebody who should not be trusted, and to do what I could to protect my child. I see that as part of my duty and obligation as a parent.

But, again, like I said earlier...
One has to deal with the here and now....
Not the coulda-woulda-shoulda's....
And, the very LAST thing I would want is for the BF and his family to feel that they have her an hour away, and her parents and family are really not present, clear and present, in the big picture.

While the OP should very very much refrain from involving herself, personally, in any way, with the personal life of her DD.
(which I am not so sure that she understands or can do....)
I think the very worst thing that could happen for the DD right now, is to feel like her family is 'pulling back', as a family, at all.

I agree, I have 2 adult children away at college, but I do still have some say in what they do (and they have loans for college tuition, we only paid the first year, and loan interest). They are on our car insurance (although neither currently have cars), cell phone plan, health insurance plan, and ds19 still has a bedroom here (dd21 gave hers away, but knows she is always welcomed back). If either one of them mentioned the M word, I would not be happy (and dd21 is a serial long term commitment dater, she hasn’t really been single since she was 15, while ds is a player). I truly believe that these years are for figuring out who you are, and for having FUN! Dd did end a 2 year relationship when she went away to college, it managed to exist when he went away to college the year before, but when she got to campus? Byseeya.

Dd16 (almost 17) has a first boyfriend, he’s nice, polite, Eagle Scout, private prep school, going to Boston college next year, but he’s just practice, and I think she knows that. They’ve only been dating 8 months.

 

[luvsJack]

Not without parental permission, which is what I meant.

ETA I was just looking up the laws in my own state which were as young as 12. I can only imagine those laws were still on the books from centuries ago. It's so obviously impractical I'm sure they've just left it there because it would be more trouble to change it than it's worth, since virtually no 12 year old would get married today.

But what I was getting at with my comment is, why is there a law in Mississippi that states that people can't get married until they're 21? Wouldn't that have been worth the effort to change if there wasn't some reason behind it? That is what I would like to know. I have googled and come up with relatively little.

Oh, and I believe it's the only state that has an age requirement of 21. (Nebraska is 19; all others 18.) I have to wonder if there is a socio-economic reason behind it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States

No idea why the law is what it is. It has changed in the past 30 years or so. Originally the guy had to be 21 and the girl 18. When my sister got married at 19, she didn't need parent's signature but her dh did.

 

[luvsJack]

Just out of curiosity, where was your DD living before she moved in with him?
If they suddenly break up for some reason, where would she move to? Does she have financial means to support herself while she finishes school?

While it is true that he has to pay for an apartment, electricity, etc. for himself anyway, that is a significant amount of money, as PP's have stated, that your DD is NOT having to pay. That is where some of us are coming from when we say she is financially dependent on him. He may say it's ok now, but if he is the controlling and/or emotionally abusive type, he may use this to hold against her later on down the line. Unfortunately, DH and I saw this plenty of times with young couples we knew.

She was living in the dorm. Her scholarships and financial aid covered room and board and she worked to pay for whatever she needed that it didn't pay for. She wasn't paying for it then either, not really. She will graduate and May and her scholarships and financial aid have already covered it.

If they broke up tomorrow, she would come home. They live an hour from us. Her school is about half way in between. That's why we never really felt like she was dependent on him nor did we. She has options. Its not like she would have to quit school or anything. If she had a job down there she could drive back and forth until she found something up here. I mean its about an hour away but its not like the other side of the world or anything.

They came to an agreement about this semester (the only time she hasn't worked) because of her needing to get things done to be able to work in her field. Whether she was with him or not, she wouldn't be working this semester.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

On our last cruise, my 19 and 20 year olds weren’t allowed to be booked in a connecting cabin without someone 21 or older. Most car rental agencies require renters to be 21 or older. It’s illegal for those under 21 to buy cigarettes in my state.

Personally, I’d much rather my 18 year old cruise and drive rental cars than get married.

Age to buy cigarettes is about reducing the number of young adults smoking by making it harder for access to cigarettes because studies have shown long-term smoking often starts when one is in the teens but if you can get someone to stop smoking before mid-20s to 30ish the effects can be reduced as the body has a better ability at bouncing back so speak. It's in select cities in my area here but the legal age to smoke is still 18..you just can't purchase cigarettes yourself until you are 21. It's not illegal to have someone buy you cigarettes either if you are at least 18 as the legal smoking age is 18.

Age of consent of marriage isn't necessarily the same as age requirements for other things.

 

[luvsJack]

The business they're in (wrestling, right?) has a lot of machismo associated with it. Your daughter will need to think long and hard about what it will be like long term to live in this type of world. I can see how it's exciting to her right now, but how will she feel as she gets older, has kids, etc. I also think it's very different for men than it is for women to be involved in such a world, too. This guy might not be a bad guy, but may just be highly influenced by the culture they're involved in, which dictates how relationships are, women are treated, etc. Just food for thought. I know she initially entered the world with her brother, but now that dynamic has changed, and she's with a guy that she's not (yet) related to, and that is also is a lot different than a brother-sister type relationship.

I agree a lot with Morgan, that while she can, wouldn't it be preferable for her to start her adult life learning some of the joys of being an educated, independent, free to-do-as-she-pleases woman? Why get bogged down right now in this type of experience? There's plenty of time for that to come later! I also agree that she's, as is, not really independent if he's paying for rent, food, utilities. That makes her dependent on him, and he's likely to see things a certain way because of it, especially given their unique circumstances.

I know when DH and I moved in together, we split everything, and I worked two jobs while going to school in order to keep it that way, because it set the dynamic in our relationship. It was important to me to be able to support myself, because of what I'd grown up with, and my own mother's inability to do so when she needed to (given she was a child of the Depression and grew up in a time and place where women strived primarily to be "housewives"). Obviously not everyone has this issue to grapple with, but people can still learn from others' experiences and learn to make good decisions for themselves anyway. I hate to see any person be dominating in a relationship - ideally relationships are pretty equal, mutually respectful, etc. - unless all parties agree to something different. Young women need to be smart about how they start things off. There are so many issues they have to deal with today.

I do wish you luck dealing with this issue. I know, having a daughter (and son) the same age, that it's a fine line we walk when guiding, yet promoting their independence. I just think that turning 18 doesn't suddenly make one all of a sudden mature and able to make good decisions. That's a process. I can already see the difference between 18 and 20, but there's still a ways to go, obviously. It tells me a lot that the people of your state made the law about getting married at 21. There must've been good reason for that. I'd take more of a look at it.

Well, I can't choose that for her. DIL and I both have had that conversation with her before he proposed. I would love to say she should see the world and be free and independent but I can't make her do it.

As for the business. She co-owns a company with her brother. They are still in this together. I will say that dd is different in a lot of the females that hang around the shows or even get involved. The vast majority of the guys she has worked with show her a tremendous amount of respect. They treat her like a lady and they all think of her as a little sister. And while they are in this business, its not their whole life or their primary careers. He has a job and she will be starting in a local gym in June.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Read my post, I said it's her right.

Right but you prefaced that statement by stating the OP wasn't asked but rather told.

You stated that DD moved in with the boyfriend, and that you weren't asked, but told. (Granted she's over 18...I get it's her right)

___________________
The OP's daughter didn't do anything wrong by telling her mom of her new living arrangements versus asking for permission because it's not something she needs to ask for. The way you worded it it makes an issue out of something that doesn't need to be an issue.

 

[BLAZEY]

Is there anyway to have her completing her college degree before she get married. I didn't get engaged until after I was finished my finals and just a couple of days before graduation. I would be encouraging her to complete her education and then after that we will discuss wedding plans. Hopefully by then she will see him for who he really is and end the relationship, with a college degree in hand.

 

[Wishing on a star]

LuvsJack... I just read your last post... And I still feel that I am confident in my earlier comments.
She is living with a man...
He is paying for the roof over her head, the heat/utilities, etc.. etc.. etc...
He is even making comments about gas, when it seems she is paying for some of that.

You seem to be able to try to justify your viewpoint...
But, going from living in the dorm, independently, on benefits that she has arranged and qualified for, is MUCH different.
The fact that the cost of housing is covered anyhow, is really a moot point, that I don't quite know how you can justify.

SHE had covered for herself before.
Now she is dependent.
I understand that maybe, with your age, culture, viewpoint, etc... you do not see the importance of this.
Some of us here feel that it is important enough to try to point out and clarify.
(PS: I imagine that we are about the same age... but just throwing that in there, in case that is a factor. Not making any negative assumptions or accusations at all....)

Look, I know that I cannot change anybody's basic way of thinking...
And, how this has all been handled in the past is what it is.
But, like I said, in the here and now... How you address this NOW, and going forward, could be crucial.

 

[Wishing on a star]

PS: What type of degree or certification will she be getting????

 

[Wishing on a star]

I will say that dd is different in a lot of the females that hang around the shows or even get involved. The vast majority of the guys she has worked with show her a tremendous amount of respect. They treat her like a lady and they all think of her as a little sister.

That is nice!
And, I remember you have made several comments before about how like her brother(s) look out for her... protect her... etc.

It just comes to mind that, while that all sounds great, if I had a daughter I would want to make sure that she was encouraged, enabled, and empowered, to look out for and protect herself.
I don't think that this can be stressed enough.

 

[lovemygoofy]

There's so many dynamics around here and speculation and ideas.
I guess I'll throw mine in too!

OP, you have to start to make sure your daughter is educated in what an abusive and manipulative relationship is. Many young people believe that unless there is actual violence that it is not considered a bad relationship. She needs to understand how the escalation of these relationships start. The isolation away from friends/family, taking control here and there by voicing strong opinions and especially financial. At this age it can be considered "romantic" that he wants to spend all his time with her or her not be away from him or not talk to others. It can be considered romantic that he is taking care of her and showing her love by paying for her life. It has to be shown how these ways of "romantic" escalate to everything that many on this thread of worried for.

Lastly, someone needs to talk to your daughter about marriage, love and sex. I'm guessing being in her first intimate relationship and being raised in a specific way she may feel obligation to go through with a wedding now. After all, they are living together (not a knock, I lived with my husband before marriage) but they are actively planning a wedding which can make it better in her mind. There has to be conversation about her still being a good person even after physical intimacy with someone, particular this guy, if the relationship should come to an end with a wedding. I know MANY young people raised especially in southern households (I am from AR originally) that are taught they have to only have physical intimacy with a man they are going to marry but then chose a crappy one but feel obligated because that has been pushed so hard. Please make sure she understands she is a good, whole woman no matter the situation.

I have a friend at age 32 going through this now. I am not quiet, I am not passive. Her husband put his hands on her. He has gotten drunk and called her names you could never imagine. He has left her and the children on the side of the road in a fit of rage. He has locked her out of place to sleep when drunken anger. I called the BS and said I will not bury you because he will not and cannot win during a fit of anger. I made her sit down and watch a full video about being an abused spouse mentality. She had it all down to a T.

You have to make sure your daughter understands how this relationship can go should it really be as bad as you think.

 

[sk!mom]

I get where you are coming from, really I do. Ds’s first wife wanted to get married to ds to get away from her family so I have seen it.

Honestly, I rarely call dd. She calls me. She calls me on her way to school and on her way back. And she will call a couple of times when he is working at night. But I will be more conscience of when I do. And what I say.

Knowing who paid for what came about when she was talking to me about looking for another job. I told her it was their decision to but it came down to if they need her paycheck. I do try not to ask too many questions.

Dd has always been close to us. She has always called me first when something upsets her whether it was a friend, something going on at school or whatever. Or when something good happens. Like yesterday she texted me to tell me about the great grade and compliments she got on her speech.

And she is a very open person. She will just blurt out what she wants like her uncles doing the ceremony. Or what kind of wedding they want. Or what colors. She will just begin telling me how they came to the decision. She doesn’t just tel me she also texts with her friends and tells them.

But I will try to make sure I back off. Or maybe comment less.

She and ds have to talk as they have business together. They are in the same group of friends in that business. He does get told a lot of stuff but he knows how things get repeated and blown out of proportion so is choosey about what he repeats.

And that business is why there was any connection with his mom. But that has changed so that connection won’t be there anymore. I honestly don’t see us being around his mom at all anymore. Or the business much at all.

I'm confused. Is she involved in a business (makes money) with her brother or is it a hobby (fun and they hope some day to make money)?

If it's not a true business, then I share other's concerns that she is totally dependent on the fiancé. At some point that dependence can feel like she's trapped.

 

[sk!mom]

Well, I can't choose that for her. DIL and I both have had that conversation with her before he proposed. I would love to say she should see the world and be free and independent but I can't make her do it.

As for the business. She co-owns a company with her brother. They are still in this together. I will say that dd is different in a lot of the females that hang around the shows or even get involved. The vast majority of the guys she has worked with show her a tremendous amount of respect. They treat her like a lady and they all think of her as a little sister. And while they are in this business, its not their whole life or their primary careers. He has a job and she will be starting in a local gym in June.

You seem to be always justifying- "she's different than other females in this business." I'm not sure what that even means or why she would need to be different.

That is nice!
And, I remember you have made several comments before about how like her brother(s) look out for her... protect her... etc.

It just comes to mind that, while that all sounds great, if I had a daughter I would want to make sure that she was encouraged, enabled, and empowered, to look out for and protect herself.
I don't think that this can be stressed enough.

I share the concerns of others that your emphasis on her brothers and others protecting her is concerning. Could your DD possibly feel that someone needs to care for her? She doesn't want it to be mom and dad anymore so she transferred it to the first serious bf?

I have a DD21 who happens to have a much older brother. We've never put forward an attitude that he needed to look after her. We've promoted the idea that she's a strong woman who can look after herself.

 

[luvsJack]

There's so many dynamics around here and speculation and ideas.
I guess I'll throw mine in too!

OP, you have to start to make sure your daughter is educated in what an abusive and manipulative relationship is. Many young people believe that unless there is actual violence that it is not considered a bad relationship. She needs to understand how the escalation of these relationships start. The isolation away from friends/family, taking control here and there by voicing strong opinions and especially financial. At this age it can be considered "romantic" that he wants to spend all his time with her or her not be away from him or not talk to others. It can be considered romantic that he is taking care of her and showing her love by paying for her life. It has to be shown how these ways of "romantic" escalate to everything that many on this thread of worried for.

Lastly, someone needs to talk to your daughter about marriage, love and sex. I'm guessing being in her first intimate relationship and being raised in a specific way she may feel obligation to go through with a wedding now. After all, they are living together (not a knock, I lived with my husband before marriage) but they are actively planning a wedding which can make it better in her mind. There has to be conversation about her still being a good person even after physical intimacy with someone, particular this guy, if the relationship should come to an end with a wedding. I know MANY young people raised especially in southern households (I am from AR originally) that are taught they have to only have physical intimacy with a man they are going to marry but then chose a crappy one but feel obligated because that has been pushed so hard. Please make sure she understands she is a good, whole woman no matter the situation.

I have a friend at age 32 going through this now. I am not quiet, I am not passive. Her husband put his hands on her. He has gotten drunk and called her names you could never imagine. He has left her and the children on the side of the road in a fit of rage. He has locked her out of place to sleep when drunken anger. I called the BS and said I will not bury you because he will not and cannot win during a fit of anger. I made her sit down and watch a full video about being an abused spouse mentality. She had it all down to a T.

You have to make sure your daughter understands how this relationship can go should it really be as bad as you think.

We have had that talk. We talked at length about emotional and mental abuse and physical abuse. And I will continue to talk to her. Your first paragraph is what I have worried about. That is it exactly. But we did talk about it. I told her that a lot of what she feels now is him showing how much he loves her may someday become suffocating even if it doesn’t get worse. She says that it has gotten better. That in the beginning he didn’t trust her, and that he had never trusted any female. Now he does and most of it has backed off. I can only go by what she tells me.

We have talked also about the whole love marriage and sex thing. And she knows she isn’t expected to marry him for any reason. The purity ring was not something we pushed or even suggested and even then we had a long talk about it. It was always by what she felt not what was expected of her. My dil has also talked to her at length about it. Dd and her are very close (dd has asked her to be her matron of honor) and dd will be more open to her than perhaps to me.

Dd is a smart girl. She has seen a lot and isn’t nearly as naive as she may be coming across. I do think she adores this guy. And he hasn’t had the easiest time growing up. I do worry that she may feel she could never leave him because everyone always has. So that is something I want to address to her. I know it would be hard to imagine being the next person to leave him but she has to realize that her first priority has to be to herself.