Trusting Someone

[cabanafrau]

I am sitting here guessing that the above question, and the answer to it, wouldn't reveal anything....
Because, she would be totally happy and fine with her sons having a young girl be dependent and submissive.
Any cost would not matter, at all.

The question should be, as mentioned... Would she have considered it a good idea for her young son(s) to give up their independence, and to move in with and be dependent on an older girlfriend. One who told him he shouldn't be spending time with his family, spending gas money, etc...

This older girlfriend "Has decided that she does not like DD."

And, to quote the OP, again: The girlfriend/fiance is known to be "mentally abusive part of which was cutting ex-boyfriend off from friends and family".

And, another kicker would be.... The older girlfriend's mother being constantly there, over-involved, in her son's personal life.... etc...

I think it's kind of unfair to presume to speak for OP. I also asked the question because I do think an honest answer will be informative for her. I did not ask it because I'm looking for an answer here.

 

[luvsJack]

It might be illuminating for you to think about this, how would you have looked at a situation like this if your son was the one paying the freight on the room and board for a not so long-term, college-age girlfriend? The question is for you, not looking for an answer here. I simply think answering honestly in your own mind might help you open up your line of thinking in regard to a lot of issues.

Well, they both have done that very thing. Well, younger ds it wasn't college age but a little older. I left it up to them. Older DS fully supported his first wife the short time they lived together before marriage, they were both about dd's age. She wasn't trying to go to school or better herself in any way. I tried to get her to go back to school for HER, not for their relationship but it wasn’t what she wanted. I thought it would hep her to feel better about herself.

It would be different if I thought dd wasn't trying to accomplish something here, if she was just living off him and doing nothing else. That isn't the case.

Reverse it to someone paying the bulk of the bills for my son while he goes to school or what not. If it was the same situation as dd and it was temporary, no I don't have a problem with it. If the couple together decides it is what is best for their future.

The other things, I am not ignoring. Those are the things we are watching for. I don't know enough about his ex to say she is a trustworthy source. But we will be watching for the signs.

I am not going to sign the papers tomorrow for this wedding. But in all of this, I realize that dd has to see any control issues for herself. I can guide her but I can't hit her over the head with it either. I can't make her so defensive of him that she truly turns a blind eye to anything. As she is moving forward from school and starts working in her field, if he is controlling its going to start being very apparent. I need her to see it, not me just show her.

 

[luvsJack]

You have mentioned this several times so I'll comment, Why would you go to anyone with a rumor? If someone told me something damaging about DD's boyfriend, I would definitely want proof before I blew things up so I don't understand why you blew it up but some how seem to think it was noble to decline the proof.

But I would reiterate that really that isn't the issue I see. The issue is an unhealthy relationship for your DD. Please listen to your intuition.

Our intention was not to blow things up but to present our concerns to them. Didn’t work out that way. The proof is supposedly about him cheating or trying to cheat. I can’t say I don’t care but that wasn’t our main concern.

And you are right the issue is whether this is unhealthy for her. I was just telling dh, we have to try and make her see it for herself.

 

[luvsJack]

I am sitting here guessing that the above question, and the answer to it, wouldn't reveal anything....
Because, she would be totally happy and fine with her sons having a young girl be dependent and submissive.
Any cost would not matter, at all.

The question should be, as mentioned... Would she have considered it a good idea for her young son(s) to give up their independence, and to move in with and be dependent on an older girlfriend. One who told him he shouldn't be spending time with his family, spending gas money, etc...

This older girlfriend "Has decided that she does not like DD."

And, to quote the OP, again: The girlfriend/fiance is known to be "mentally abusive part of which was cutting ex-boyfriend off from friends and family".

And, another kicker would be.... The older girlfriend's mother being constantly there, over-involved, in her son's personal life.... etc...

Not sure if you are referring to me in the “constantly over there” but that is hardly the case. They live an hour away from me. I don’t see her every week much less constantly.

What I know of their personal life, I know because she tells me. I don’t ask.

And to be fair, his mother isn’t over there either. She lives closer but works two jobs. She doesn’t have time to be there. What she knows, she knows because her son chooses to share it with her.

 

[katie111]

Why don't you want to see the proof? I would want to know one way or another if he cheated if this is really headed towards marriage. Did he cheat or didn't he? This is possibly going to be the rest of your daughter's life.

Also you mention your sons or at least one of them getting married this young. Is this a normal marriage age where u live?

 

[cabanafrau]

Our intention was not to blow things up but to present our concerns to them. Didn’t work out that way. The proof is supposedly about him cheating or trying to cheat. I can’t say I don’t care but that wasn’t our main concern.

And you are right the issue is whether this is unhealthy for her. I was just telling dh, we have to try and make her see it for herself.

How could broaching the subject in the first place not inherently have the potential to blow things up? Who doesn't realize rumors like that are lit matches? The fact you're presenting it as if your foray into the matter should have been accepted as your rightful parental duty is pretty incredible. The rumors came from your daughter's social circle over an hour away to you, yet you thought there was no way she would get wind of it herself?

I cannot wrap my brain around potentially having concerns my daughter was in an abusive relationship and raising the concerns in front of her potential abuser without discussing the situation with my daughter first.

On one hand you assert she's paying her bills, yet she cannot afford the gas to come see you without his okay or you agreeing to fill her tank? The reality is she's living like a typical college student, making enough cash to pay for incidentals along the way, but someone else is paying the freight on the major living expenses. It seems with your blessing and encouragement your 19 year old daughter accepted that not small gift from a boyfriend.

Your daughter may very well be in an unhealthy relationship, I certainly hope not. If so I'd be very careful not to be sending her an endless stream of mixed messages. I'd also be looking at ways to boost my daughter's genuine self reliance and her own good judgment. No matter what this situation is, it's guaranteed she's going to need those in life.

 

[Skywalker]

I find it a little confusing that you said the rumour could "blow up his whole life" and "end his career" and the only thing is that he has been trying to get back together with his ex? What kind of career does he have that fires people for getting back together with exes or for having relationship drama? Because that's really all this is. Drama and rumours. Especially coming from an ex I would be very skeptical...if I had a nickle for every person that claimed their ex was crazy / abusive/ evil I'd be very rich lol.

 

[luvsJack]

I have typed and retyped several responses but here goes—

The threat to his career was an accusation of an abuse of power.

The internship dd is doing is a full time thing but the gym owner has offered her some paying hours so now she will once again have a paying job. How they see fit to divide the expenses is really not mine to say.

Dd is not just being irresponsible by not having a full time job for the past month. There aren’t but so many hours in a day. She goes to school, taking 20 hours. She is doing the internship which is pretty much a full time job. Thankfully the gym owner has offered to make some of the hours paid. She is doing well and impressing the people she works for. When her last job ended, the two of them discussed it and decided that her not working would be the best for her to accomplish what she was trying to do. Did he do this with ulterior motives? I can’t say. But she isn’t going to continue not working and depending on him for anything. She has already said that herself. She doesn’t totally depend on him now. Yes he pays rent. But she doesn’t need him to have a place to live, she doesn’t need him to be able to finish school. She is not some weak little flower that thinks anyone has to “take care” of her by any stretch of the imagination.

He didn’t tell her she couldn’t have money for gas, he made a comment about her wasting money on gas.

The ex saying he tried to cheat may be a complete lie. The rest, had us concerned because of things that have happened. Either way it’s not exactly her social circle. She does know the ex’s current bf but they do not communicate at all. The information was given to me and to ds at different times. I had no clue who knew what or about what and neither did ds. Either way the issue for us was not the potential cheating. And sorry but as her mother any hint of her being treated badly is very much my business.

She didn’t do anything “with our blessing” or encouragement. She was given the pros and cons and came to her own decision. She made the choice. We stop making choices for our kids long before they turn 18. But the fact is that was in the past and I cannot go back and change it.

Marrying young is not unusual or the norm here it varies as I am sure it does anywhere.

 

[morgan98]

Me again...but do you understand that her options are have him pay or have YOU pay. That is not independence!

She is already depending on him for a lot...

I am probably not a good person to respond to this as I am jaded, although happily married. The one person you can depend on is you.

I am also not a parent..so take that for what it is worth, however have helped nieces and nephews who are young adults both financially and emotionally. I am going to say it. When she was making these decisions at 18 or 19 I would have 100% told her I was not on board and that it is not healthy to be so reliant on someone else at such a young age.

 

[luvsJack]

Me again...but do you understand that her options are have him pay or have YOU pay. That is not independence!

She is already depending on him for a lot...

I am probably not a good person to respond to this as I am jaded, although happily married. The one person you can depend on is you.

I am also not a parent..so take that for what it is worth, however have helped nieces and nephews who are young adults both financially and emotionally. I am going to say it. When she was making these decisions at 18 or 19 I would have 100% told her I was not on board and that it is not healthy to be so reliant on someone else at such a young age.

I have been on my own and worked hard to support myself and my kids until I met dh. After my first marriage, I was determined to never be that dependent on anyone. And that is the lessons I have taught her.

She has options it doesn’t have to be me or him. With her money she will get back from school she can pay her portion of the rent with her friends in an apartment. That was one of her options when she chose to move in with him and she still could do it. The apartment complex is for students and will work with them on paying the rent when refunds come out. As an employee of the college, I could pull strings and put her back in the dorm.

I could have told her I wasn’t on board with it, I could have said we would take away her car and her phone. And she would still be right there and not in school. That wasn’t an option. That would have made her completely dependent on him.

 

[sk!mom]

Me again...but do you understand that her options are have him pay or have YOU pay. That is not independence!

She is already depending on him for a lot...

I am probably not a good person to respond to this as I am jaded, although happily married. The one person you can depend on is you.

I am also not a parent..so take that for what it is worth, however have helped nieces and nephews who are young adults both financially and emotionally. I am going to say it. When she was making these decisions at 18 or 19 I would have 100% told her I was not on board and that it is not healthy to be so reliant on someone else at such a young age.

I am a parent and I can say that I absolutely would have let DD21 know that becoming dependent upon a bf that she had known for a short time was not a good decision at 19.

OP, from your other threads, I have to say that you really seemed OK with her decision and happily wedding planning. Not that I fault you for that but I think you need to accept that you possibly encouraged the relationship and contributed to the speed that it moved. I think that is the heart of all of your justifications on this thread.

Also, an "abuse of power" rumor would be serious to me if my 19 year old were in a relationship with this person and I absolutely would want details. If it's true, it would certainly back up your concerns for your DD.

Comments like "wasting money on gas" are typical for a controller. Their aim is to make you feel guilty about everything- even normal everyday stuff like gas in the car. Pretty soon your DD will stop doing things that she knows he doesn't like because she loves him and doesn't want the drama.

I'm not sure if you said, but how old is the bf? That is starting to seem very relevant. If he's old enough to have a job where he could potentially "abuse power," then he seems much more mature, independent, and adult than your 19 year old. In general, I think it's a bad idea for teenagers to date someone more than a few years older just because the teen can be easily controlled and ran over by someone who really is an independent adult.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I just liked the above post!
Skimom, without double checking, I think he is 24???

And, as far as the role reversal question...
Of course, it was just food for thought, and definitely just rhetorical.

If one person can throw out a hypothetical and rhetorical question, then I thought I would just throw in my take on that too.
I had no realization that any other person, myself, could not do the same.

And, as far as the involved mother thing.... based on what we have heard here, it does seem like the mothers on both sides are pretty involved...
I was not making any assumptions or speaking for anyone.
Anybody who is taking it that way.... neither of those are true at all.

 

[morgan98]

I have been on my own and worked hard to support myself and my kids until I met dh. After my first marriage, I was determined to never be that dependent on anyone. And that is the lessons I have taught her.

She has options it doesn’t have to be me or him. With her money she will get back from school she can pay her portion of the rent with her friends in an apartment. That was one of her options when she chose to move in with him and she still could do it. The apartment complex is for students and will work with them on paying the rent when refunds come out. As an employee of the college, I could pull strings and put her back in the dorm.

I could have told her I wasn’t on board with it, I could have said we would take away her car and her phone. And she would still be right there and not in school. That wasn’t an option. That would have made her completely dependent on him.

I never necessarily said take away her car. I think sitting her down at 19 after one year of college and telling her that she should not live with her first real boyfriend and be reliant on him for the roof over her head is a bad thing. Instead you have posted other times about liking him, about planning the wedding, wedding dress shopping etc. That is being supportive and in favor of these decisions.

I am 48 years old and I can tell you that if I was going down the path your daughter is right now, I can 100% tell you I would have heard about it from my mother (from both my parents really, but my mother the most.)

The other thing is he does sound controlling. I am sure he doesn't want her living in a dorm with her friends. He cannot monitor her coming and going as easily from there. All this talk of having gas money to drive an hour seems crazy to me. We are talking about a few dollars here, not a $1000 investment!

 

[luvsJack]

He is 23.

We do/did like him. I don’t necessarily dislike him now. Should I have hated him and decided to bad mouth him constantly? Or you seriously thinking that would help?

She isnt reliant on him for a roof over her head.

She had a job. She has had a job the whole entire time except for one month. Did she pay rent? No. But fairly sure she picked up food for them both or paid for gas or bought stuff for the household or whatever expenses they both had. They decided how to divide expenses and each pay for their own personal stuff. Now she has a job again. What exactly do you think I should do, force him to let her pay half the rent?

From the beginning she was told that she didn’t need to be totally reliant on him. She can walk out right now this minute and nothing changes for her. She has been taught from a young age not to be dependent on anyone. That is the exact reason she is working so hard to achieve her goals in her career so she doesn’t have to depend on him or anyone.

Do you seriously think we didn’t talk to her about moving in with him? We had any number of conversations about it. Y’all act acting like we just said “oh joy, you have a boyfriend, go out and move in with him”. That isn’t even close. We talked to her. We talked to him. We talked to them.

One thing I know with out a single doubt is that if we had forbade it or fought it to any extent she would still be right where she is. She would be with him and feeling like she didn’t have us in her corner. I am not sure how anyone can think that is a better.

I could refuse to go with her to look at dresses. And then you have a young girl who feels betrayed and like her family is just against her bf. Again, is that going to help the situation?

The wedding plans are on hold. I am not sure how much clearer I can make that.

The dates they wanted are 3-4 months after she turns 20. So within 8-9 months of what they were looking at she will be 21. I cannot stop her from marrying him at 21 no more than anyone can really stop an 18 year old from living where they want to.

 

[sk!mom]

He is 23.

We do/did like him. I don’t necessarily dislike him now. Should I have hated him and decided to bad mouth him constantly? Or you seriously thinking that would help?

She isnt reliant on him for a roof over her head.

She had a job. She has had a job the whole entire time except for one month. Did she pay rent? No. But fairly sure she picked up food for them both or paid for gas or bought stuff for the household or whatever expenses they both had. They decided how to divide expenses and each pay for their own personal stuff. Now she has a job again. What exactly do you think I should do, force him to let her pay half the rent?

Telling her very strongly that she is too young to marry especially given the short time they had known one another and that it was a very bad idea for her to move in and be reliant on him supporting her is in no way bad mouthing him. It is trying to help her make good decisions and pointing out to her the poor decisions she seems to be making.

I get that you do not see her as dependent on him. Others of us do because once she has a taste of living "independently" as a grown up and playing house it will be very difficult for her to move back to a dorm or back in with mom and dad. I'm sure she's convincing herself that she's a grown up too but since she really has no way to independently cover housing, groceries, car expenses, and everything else- it's an illusion. An illusion that makes her dependent on someone who your intuition is telling you isn't good for her.

I'll keep repeating...please listen to your intuition rather than trying to justify the relationship and decisions made thus far.

 

[Skywalker]

I have typed and retyped several responses but here goes—

The threat to his career was an accusation of an abuse of power.

The internship dd is doing is a full time thing but the gym owner has offered her some paying hours so now she will once again have a paying job. How they see fit to divide the expenses is really not mine to say.

Dd is not just being irresponsible by not having a full time job for the past month. There aren’t but so many hours in a day. She goes to school, taking 20 hours. She is doing the internship which is pretty much a full time job. Thankfully the gym owner has offered to make some of the hours paid. She is doing well and impressing the people she works for. When her last job ended, the two of them discussed it and decided that her not working would be the best for her to accomplish what she was trying to do. Did he do this with ulterior motives? I can’t say. But she isn’t going to continue not working and depending on him for anything. She has already said that herself. She doesn’t totally depend on him now. Yes he pays rent. But she doesn’t need him to have a place to live, she doesn’t need him to be able to finish school. She is not some weak little flower that thinks anyone has to “take care” of her by any stretch of the imagination.

He didn’t tell her she couldn’t have money for gas, he made a comment about her wasting money on gas.

The ex saying he tried to cheat may be a complete lie. The rest, had us concerned because of things that have happened. Either way it’s not exactly her social circle. She does know the ex’s current bf but they do not communicate at all. The information was given to me and to ds at different times. I had no clue who knew what or about what and neither did ds. Either way the issue for us was not the potential cheating. And sorry but as her mother any hint of her being treated badly is very much my business.

She didn’t do anything “with our blessing” or encouragement. She was given the pros and cons and came to her own decision. She made the choice. We stop making choices for our kids long before they turn 18. But the fact is that was in the past and I cannot go back and change it.

Marrying young is not unusual or the norm here it varies as I am sure it does anywhere.

But his mother doesn't get to have that same attitude, right. When she does it, its meddling and controlling and coddling her son lol. By the way, if "any hint of her being treated badly is very much your business"...do you also police her friendships? What if a friend hurts her feelings or ends the friendship? Will you show up at her work and confront her boss if she gets yelled at or something? She is an adult. I don't think you really get that.

 

[MamaBelle4]

What exactly do you think I should do, force him to let her pay half the rent?

From the beginning she was told that she didn’t need to be totally reliant on him. She can walk out right now this minute and nothing changes for her. She has been taught from a young age not to be dependent on anyone. That is the exact reason she is working so hard to achieve her goals in her career so she doesn’t have to depend on him or anyone.

If she were truly independent and didn't want to be dependent on anyone, SHE would've insisted on paying her own rent.

I get that you do not see her as dependent on him. Others of us do because once she has a taste of living "independently" as a grown up and playing house it will be very difficult for her to move back to a dorm or back in with mom and dad. I'm sure she's convincing herself that she's a grown up too but since she really has no way to independently cover housing, groceries, car expenses, and everything else- it's an illusion.

^This. She is just playing house right now.

You said something about "taking away her car". Who pays for that? It would seem her expenses are split between you and the BF. All you can do is make it clear to her she has an out with you.

I don't know why you think that having options means you aren't depending on someone. I am a SAHM. My DH brings in the bacon. Were something to happen, I could move in with family until I secured a job and home. But we are still dependent on him and his income.

 

[luvsJack]

Telling her very strongly that she is too young to marry especially given the short time they had known one another and that it was a very bad idea for her to move in and be reliant on him supporting her is in no way bad mouthing him. It is trying to help her make good decisions and pointing out to her the poor decisions she seems to be making.

I get that you do not see her as dependent on him. Others of us do because once she has a taste of living "independently" as a grown up and playing house it will be very difficult for her to move back to a dorm or back in with mom and dad. I'm sure she's convincing herself that she's a grown up too but since she really has no way to independently cover housing, groceries, car expenses, and everything else- it's an illusion. An illusion that makes her dependent on someone who your intuition is telling you isn't good for her.

I'll keep repeating...please listen to your intuition rather than trying to justify the relationship and decisions made thus far.

No but she will very soon be able to do any of that. In our many conversations with the two of them that was something that was continually brought up, she finishing school and getting what she needs to work in her field had to be a priority.

Besides she could in fact do that now. Her refund would cover rent and the job she now has would cover the rest and she would be living with her friends not her parents. I don’t know how else to explain it.

We have told her that she is very young to marry and that people change a lot in their early 20’s and what they want in life can change greatly. We aren’t just sitting back and saying nothing. We had these same conversations before she moved in with him.

No one has stopped listening to our gut feelings. No one has just accepted this. But again, SHE has to see it with our guidance.

 

[luvsJack]

But his mother doesn't get to have that same attitude, right. When she does it, its meddling and controlling and coddling her son lol. By the way, if "any hint of her being treated badly is very much your business"...do you also police her friendships? What if a friend hurts her feelings or ends the friendship? Will you show up at her work and confront her boss if she gets yelled at or something? She is an adult. I don't think you really get that.

Wow really? Her boss and her friends aren’t likely to abuse her. Totally different

And she has been handling her own problems with school, teachers, work and bosses from a young age. I do not handle her problems. Haven’t for a very long time. Never even spoke to a teacher from about 6th grade on. She handled it.

This wasn’t about a friend doing something this was about the man she is choosing to marry. Sorry but it was a bit more important than girl drama.

I actually didn’t say any of that about his mom. I said he called her. And he did. I also said later that in further thinking about it, he is also young and it’s not fair to expect him to react differently than perhaps dd would have done.

So if you are going to be determined to blast me please read everything I said.

 

[katie111]

Does she go out with her friends without him and what do her friends think of him & their relationship? If she can't go to dinner alone with her parents, I Wonder how much time she is allowed to spend with her friends. And if he works nights, seems like she would have a lot of free time to hang out with them.