Transgender Gym Mess

[Gracie09]

They would be wrong though. The differnce is a man and a woman are physically different. There is no comparison, stop trying to make one.

because you don't want to face it doesn't make it a wrong comparison. Do some research. There were doctors who "proved" blacks and whites were physically different.

huh? so now it's about the ability to "sire offspring"?

I'm screwed then. I'm infertile. So I must not be a woman.

 

[TaylorEar]

Of course there are just as there are physical differences between people of the same race, but we don't seperate our bathroom/changing areas based on differences in physical traits. We separate on differences of sex.

Right. And in the past, we separated bathrooms/drinking fountains/schools/transportation/etc based on skin color. Times change. Knowledge leads to evolving ideas. Currently, a lot of public places are realizing that separating bathroom/changing areas based on sexual anatomy is no longer appropriate.

 

[Gracie09]

Isn't that the whole point of there BEING 2 different sexes?

lets do this again - sex and gender are two different things.

gender -
gen·der
ˈjendər/
noun
noun: gender
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
synonyms: sex
"variables included age, income, and gender"

sex
either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

We are discussing gender not sex.

 

[Kayabee]

because you don't want to face it doesn't make it a wrong comparison. Do some research. There were doctors who "proved" blacks and whites were physically different.

Its not me who doesn't want to face it, it you. You are trying to make this into something its not. Either you don't understand the Civil Rights Movement, or you don't understand the topic of this thread. Maybe its both, so in that case there is no reason to continue replying to your posts in this thread. Have a good day.

 

[Kayabee]

Right. And in the past, we separated bathrooms/drinking fountains/schools/transportation/etc based on skin color. Times change. Knowledge leads to evolving ideas. Currently, a lot of public places are realizing that separating bathroom/changing areas based on sexual anatomy is no longer appropriate.

And Bravo to that, but this situation in the OP is not the same as separation based on race.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yes, I understand that.

What you're failing to understand is that trans people fear for their own physical safety, I'm sure more than you or any other person fears being uncomfortable. What leads you to believe that they'd be reckless in this way? What makes you think they wouldn't be taking every precaution to protect their own privacy and safety?

There was nothing in the question asked to indicate the teen would be taking every precaution to protect their own privacy and safety.
I'm not going to make that assumption because there are always people who take things to the extreme to prove some kind of point.
If a general example of a physically female teen using a men's locker room is brought up, I'm going to assume we are talking about that teen using the locker room in the same why the men do.
You can't have it both ways.
Either there could be some type of issues that either do arise or could arise and the teen cannot use the locker room in the exact manner the men do (like showering, changing in the open) or there's no issues and everyone should be fine with the teen using the locker room however he wants.

 

[Gracie09]

Its not me who doesn't want to face it, it you. You are trying to make this into something its not. Either you don't understand the Civil Rights Movement, or you don't understand the topic of this thread. Maybe its both, so in that case there is no reason to continue replying to your posts in this thread. Have a good day.

No I understand both perfectly well. In one case people were discriminated against based on a physical feature. In another they are discriminated against based on a physical feature. Got it.

 

[TaylorEar]

Its not me who doesn't want to face it, it you. You are trying to make this into something its not. Either you don't understand the Civil Rights Movement, or you don't understand the topic of this thread. Maybe its both, so in that case there is no reason to continue replying to your posts in this thread. Have a good day.

um, you do understand that a civil rights movement is in full effect today... and it encompasses fighting for the rights of (among others) transgendered people, right?

 

[Gracie09]

And Bravo to that, but this situation in the OP is not the same as separation based on race.

you're right. Its separation based on gender.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

lets do this again - sex and gender are two different things.

gender -
gen·der
ˈjendər/
noun
noun: gender
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
synonyms: sex
"variables included age, income, and gender"

sex
either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

We are discussing gender not sex.

That's where you're wrong - we separate based on sex.

 

[Dawnlight]

There was nothing in the question asked to indicate the teen would be taking every precaution to protect their own privacy and safety.
I'm not going to make that assumption because there are always people who take things to the extreme to prove some kind of point.
If a general example of a physically female teen using a men's locker room is brought up, I'm going to assume we are talking about that teen using the locker room in the same why the men do.
You can't have it both ways.
Either there could be some type of issues that either do arise or could arise and the teen cannot use the locker room in the exact manner the men do (like showering, changing in the open) or there's no issues and everyone should be fine with the teen using the locker room however he wants.

You are focusing on the physical aspect alone. Many trans people, prior to having a surgical transition, can't stand the genitalia that they were born with and don't match the gender they identify with. Why would they then choose to allow other people to see it?

Maybe you'll understand the difficulties trans people face on a day to day basis if you read some blogs, news articles, books, view documentaries, and expose yourself more to this topic.

 

[Gracie09]

That's where you're wrong - we separate based on sex.

apparently not. At Planet Fitness its based on gender.

 

[Divah]

I am going to have to agree on the civil rights analogy...There is a direct correlation from the African rights movement to the transgender movement.. the next great frontier....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nico-machlitt/the-transgender-movement-is-taking-over_b_5974198.html

Our way of thinking and arguments from both sides mirror those of that time...The same arguments of pass can be made with as simple as changing out the words ...

The world is no longer black and white....and while I would seem it unsafe for a teen transgender female in a males locker room now based on fear and ignorance. I would also think that teen has a right to do what makes him comfortable. They are aware of the stigma of going in there and most likely would not but till we as a society evolve to accept it...it is still a safety issue atm.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

That's where you're wrong - we separate based on sex.

And that's exactly what many people think is wrong, because it makes life very difficult for people whose gender does not match their sex. It takes very little effort on the part of the rest of us to accommodate trans people, even if it seems uncomfortable at first.

And to the person who said he or she didn't want to see the body of a trans person in the changeroom - I see many, many things I'm not that enthusiastic about seeing in change rooms! Including my own body in the mirror!! An occasional male organ would really not be a big deal.

 

[mjkacmom]

Bottom line is this - inclusion can only take you so far. People can say, "they just want to be like everyone else". Well, they're not. How you choose to deal with that is up to you. You can celebrate the uniqueness, or try to pretend it doesn't exist. No skin off my neck.

But, I have a hard time believing someone who is physically a teen girl is going to be any more comfortable stripping down in a locker room full of men than those men are.

At our high school, no one cared. Ds16 had no issue changing in front of him, even though he was lacking a *****. None of the guys did. He wore underwear. He also happened to live 4 doors down from us, and when he was she, was friends with dd18 (slept over here a few times). Maybe it depends on where you live, but people are pretty progressive here. The gay/straight alliance club at the HS is pretty popular.

ETA - he identified as male, so he felt more comfortable changing in the boys room, and using the boys bathroom.

 

[aaarcher86]

Each state is different, but most states are moving towards adopting similar policies as this one http://schools.nyc.gov/RulesPolicies/TransgenderStudentGuidelines/default.htm

I appreciate the link, but it doesn't answer a whole lot for me other than saying they'll take lots of factors into consideration. I'm more interested in personal experiences.

There was a poster earlier about a school decision against allowing a trans person in their gender identified locker room because the parents of the students were against it.

 

[Geoff_M]

Actually its a place of public accommodation, not a private business. Just like a restaurant, store, etc etc. A private residence is just that, a private dwelling. The only option for someone who was uncomfortable sitting next to a black person 50 years ago was to go elsewhere.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12181

The terms "Private Business" and "Public Accommodation" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Planet Fitness is likely both, but the definitions vary both federally and within each state. The definition you posted refers only to the Federal definition as it pertains to the equality oppertunties of persons with handicaps. But I think you mistakenly think that I'm trying to say that PF would NOT a public accommodation, when I've made no such claim. You also keep buttressing my assertions with your continued analogies.

 

[sunshinehighway]

You are focusing on the physical aspect alone. Many trans people, prior to having a surgical transition, can't stand the genitalia that they were born with and don't match their gender they identify with. Why would they then choose to allow other people to see it?

Maybe you'll understand the difficulties trans people face on a day to day basis if you read some blogs, news articles, books, view documentaries, and expose yourself more to this topic.

I am focusing on the physical aspect because in a locker room, the physical aspect is the issue.

If one wants to say a teen who identifies as male but is completely physically female should use a men's locker room then to me that means that teen should be able to change, shower, clean up, whatever else, just as anyone else who uses that locker room. I cannot agree with that idea.
It puts the safety of the teen at risk and it puts the men at risk.

You can't say it's ok because the teen would take precautions to have privacy. That's making an assumption about how you expect someone would behave. It's also taking away from the whole argument that a transgender person is no different from those physically born that gender.

It seems to me like you are saying it'd be fine for the teen to use the men's locker room because he wouldn't be naked or showering with those adult men who are physically male.
Isn't the whole argument that the teen is no different from the men?

 

[Planogirl]

And that's exactly what many people think is wrong, because it makes life very difficult for people whose gender does not match their sex. It takes very little effort on the part of the rest of us to accommodate trans people, even if it seems uncomfortable at first.

And to the person who said he or she didn't want to see the body of a trans person in the changeroom - I see many, many things I'm not that enthusiastic about seeing in change rooms! Including my own body in the mirror!! An occasional male organ would really not be a big deal.

To you it isn't a big deal but to others it might be. A transgender individual might need to be made comfortable but so should others which is where this becomes complicated. Again, I see only individual changing rooms as the solution.

 

[TaylorEar]

I appreciate the link, but it doesn't answer a whole lot for me other than saying they'll take lots of factors into consideration. I'm more interested in personal experiences.

There was a poster earlier about a school decision against allowing a trans person in their gender identified locker room because the parents of the students were against it.

In my experience with my practicum requirements, I think right now it largely depends on the school and the individual situation. As states are moving towards officially adopting non-discrimination policies (relating specifically to transgendered students and staff) I think they are trying to carefully walk the line, as they are opening themselves up to litigation. At the one high school I observed at where this was an issue, they left it up to the discretion of the student. Other students and their parents feelings or opinions were not taken into consideration, in terms of the policy. This particular student (transgendered male) used the boys bathroom and locker room.