Ticketed for a traffic violation in a Wal-Mart parking lot?

[DarthKTrava]

hmmm that is crazy
my sister had someone hit her car & the cops wouldn't do a thing about it since it was private parking lot

I had someone hit my car in a gas station lot which is in part of a Wal-Mart parking lot. The cops couldn't issue tickets but did fill out a police report for insurance purposes.

 

[John VN]

It depends on the location, where I live if the property is open to the public then traffic codes are fully enforeceable, expecially handicapped parking tickets

There are special statutes regard handicapped parking and that is why many times you see signs regarding the enforcement codes at locations around the U.S. That is also why I suggested to research the statutes for the location in question or for that matter, any location in the U.S.

 

[Tozzie]

There are special statutes regard handicapped parking and that is why many times you see signs regarding the enforcement codes at locations around the U.S. That is also why I suggested to research the statutes for the location in question or for that matter, any location in the U.S.

No you said research because private property is private property and I stated that where I live if it is open to the public, then traffic codes are enforceable, including and especially handicapped parking, there are no special statutes regarding them vs othere parking and traffic codes. Similarly an accident in that type of parking lot is treated the same as if it happened on the street.

 

[John VN]

No you said research because private property is private property and I stated that where I live if it is open to the public, then traffic codes are enforceable, including and especially handicapped parking, there are no special statutes regarding them vs othere parking and traffic codes. Similarly an accident in that type of parking lot is treated the same as if it happened on the street.

My post regarding researching was directed towards the OP.

If I was to receive a violation on any private property, before I anti-up, I would research to see if there existed a record proving the legality of the violation on said private property. If it existed I would pay, if not, I would involve myself with the legal system to fight it.

Sounds to me that if I had a farm in your town with a road leading up to my fruit/vegetable stand opened to the public and I had a 4-way intersection with the intersecting roads coming from 2 fenced off growing fields, stop signs could be posted on the field roads and the police could issue a summons if someone blew through a stop sign at 2AM.

 

[disneymarie]

No you said research because private property is private property and I stated that where I live if it is open to the public, then traffic codes are enforceable, including and especially handicapped parking, there are no special statutes regarding them vs othere parking and traffic codes. Similarly an accident in that type of parking lot is treated the same as if it happened on the street.

Parking on through fares is a whole different animal then "rules of the road" moving violations.

I am not sure about John exertice, he certainly put it percise and correct, I have decades in law enforcement and private property is that with an exception for the major offenses , or as stated parking violations on the handicap or restricted use for patrons only. These are not moving violations.

The OP's jurisdiction is what counts in this case, She does need to contact the State Police, the magistrate office, or local representative to find out what authority gave the officer the right to write the citation.

But I am certain in your area, if the law enforcement is on the up and up, they do not have enforceable powers for the Vehicle code moving violations of their state on private property. Some departments THINK they can enforce these rules and regs, but they can't.

Rules of the road, stop signs, traffic s
ignals, speeding, staying in your own lane, can not be enforced on private property. Who would give them the authority?
Each stop sign is in the town, city, borough, etc local ordinance and HAS to be a state approved placement. Even a sign warning of a school bus stop ahead, fire station ahead, etc. In fact Penn dot will aprove the placement, but not give you the sign, you purchase the approved one and put it in yourself.

Think about it, if they wrote the ticket, that stop sign HAS to be an accepted stop sign in the state system. You cannot just go out and place a stop sign at the end of a road and if someone runs it ticket for the infraction....
There was a local development that had a long stretch with many cross streets. TO slow traffic, the powers of the town wanted and had the road crew go out and place stop signs along the stretch. Penn Dot states that you cannot have a stop sign on a major through fare, only the roads entering it.

Every ticket was withdrawn, and signs were removed with some strong thoughts from Penn Dot.

We needed a stop sign placement because the intersection had two right of ways. If there was a stop sign there 50 years ago and fell, there was no indoctrination of that sign on the books.
Penn Dot needed the traffic study and paperwork tons of work to get that stop sign in. Then it had to become part of the local ordinance, which gave the police dept the authority to write a violation. If the property is private, NO ONE has the right to put traffic control devices on a local ordinance to be enforced.

The supervisors wanted a stop sign at the end of the local park exit, they told the road dept to erect the sign from one in the garage. Then wanted me to sit and watch the little league parents just roll through it to ticket.
Well, that sign was never accepted by the local ordinance, let alone Penn Dot regs. Nice decorative device but had no more enforcement then if you put one on your property.

IF you live in a private development, they may have their own ordinances and police department...security, which stil cannot exceed the enforceability of the state statute for "Rules of the Road."

 

[kaytieeldr]

Okay, here's what I found for local roads in Massachusetts:

"Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign or a flashing red signal indication shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or, if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering it. After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways."

I haven't found anything for private property yet, but I can stop at the police station eventually and talk with the traffic officer. That our local 50+ year old mall has not only stop signs and stop bars, but also traffic lights in the parking lot, makes me think the police do have authority...

 

[disneymarie]

Okay, here's what I found for local roads in Massachusetts:

"Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign or a flashing red signal indication shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or, if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering it. After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways."

I haven't found anything for private property yet, but I can stop at the police station eventually and talk with the traffic officer. That our local 50+ year old mall has not only stop signs and stop bars, but also traffic lights in the parking lot, makes me think the police do have authority...

That is the same reading of our citable section, the enforceable is a few paragraphs ahead, top of the section.

But, if this mall has an entry road, that is town owned, such as having street signs with a name, that is a public entry that would be violated, on the ordinance book. But if it is the little ol sign near the door like at SAMS Club, that is not enforceable, just courtesy for traffic flow.

Now there are traffic lights at the exit of our Mall, being that said, if you are in the Mall leaving and decide there is no traffic and pull across the hwy, that is a courtesy light NOT enforceable. It is coming out of a private property,

BUT the hwy side, the public roadway, if the person decides there is no traffic and they go through it continuing down the named roadway; THAT is a moving violation on the hwy.

THe lights you are sitting in the parking lot, and you face the Hwy XXXX, are not enforceable part of the private store lot. Just there so you do not get killed trying to exit. THey are stopping the traffic on the hwy for you to exit.

But, if you are in the mall lot, and traveling all over the lines, DWI, that is an enforceable offense, under the section, even though it is a parking lot.
Relating to PA title 75 Traffic code.

I had police officers that did not know the mall lights were NOT enforceable. THey swore up and down, until I had it verified through, the PSP trainning center and Penn dot.
My dh still would never consider trying to exit even if he could, against a signal. Me I will do it because it is dangerous.

 

[DianeV]

My husband is a PO and has always said that private property like store parking lots etc are not enforceable if they put a stop bar or sign etc..that is what he says anyway (for here at least)

 

[sasywtch]

In CA, officers cannot ticket for vehicle code violations other than tags and handicap on private property (Walmart). They enforce vehicle codes on county/state roads and penal code violations on all. Makes sense as enforcing vehicle codes other than tags/handicap on private property would mean it would give them carte blanche to come onto your private property to cite you for numerous infractions that have nothing to do with tags/handicap parking. Something I don't think most of us want to happen. This is why most officers won't show up for a car accident on private property unless their is injury or hit and run.

Even though it wasn't right to run the stop sign marking, I would fight it. I have been known to sort of go through the ones in front of the stores when no one is walking across.

 

[WDWBlue]

Now there are traffic lights at the exit of our Mall, being that said, if you are in the Mall leaving and decide there is no traffic and pull across the hwy, that is a courtesy light NOT enforceable. It is coming out of a private property,

This isn't true, it is enforceable (it's in the public right of way after all). That light regulates traffic on the public roadway, even the traffic coming out of a private drive.

 

[taximomfor4]

I don't know the legal part of this OP, but just had to say something. When I took claims calls for a large insurance company, Walmart parking lot incidents were the #1 calls! WHAT is it about Walmart parking lots?

 

[TurkA77]

You park your car on the sidewalk? Here, if your car in on your driveway and it's blocking the sidewalk, they can give you a ticket.

There is a snow parking ban from December 1st to April 1st. It keeps the cars off the road so the plows can clean the streets when it snows. Whatever cars can't fit in the driveway, go on the sidewalk. This winter we have had more 70-80 degree days than snow, but the cops don't know how to use common sense when ticketing, so they give you a snow parking ban ticket when its 70 degrees out.

Where else would I park my car if it does fit in the driveway and I can't park on the street or sidewalk?

 

[Squirlz]

I don't know the legal part of this OP, but just had to say something. When I took claims calls for a large insurance company, Walmart parking lot incidents were the #1 calls! WHAT is it about Walmart parking lots?

Walmart customers!

 

[disneymarie]

This isn't true, it is enforceable (it's in the public right of way after all). That light regulates traffic on the public roadway, even the traffic coming out of a private drive.

You would think that is correct, research it...
I went through the state police academy Wyoming PA, The instructor now retired now, was Captain rank in the Pa State Police. Taught the vehicle code sections detailed...

Even high ranking local city police still feel this is enforceable, it would make sense, but this is a private owned lot, not itself a road. I would not make the turn, especially across often 4 lanes of traffic.

But, only the lights facing each direction on the hwy are enforceable. if you are in the shopping center parking lot going to exit, they are NOT on a hwy and not enforceable. Stupid move to try and cross, they are there to assist the traffic leaving as to not cause a major incident...
What roadway would you be ticketed for, not the parking lot. (The traffic light number 123 at the intersection of Route 111 and the entry to the Shopway)

Only major moving traffic offenses are enforceable on traffic ways as quoted above from the PA veh code, title 75 section S/S 3101 rules.
All other Moving violations must be on a hwy, street or roadway.

Not unless PA veh code has been changed in since 2004 when I retired, and as I read the current section it has not been changed. I saw no amendments stating public enforcement on a private piece of proerty. That is why the fight to include the major offences could be cited.
If in fact it has been changed in the last years since I retired, I will repost and eat my words...But, I do not read anywhere even in the new code that it includes moving violations enforced on private thru ways,

I can almost bet, if you asked any local police officer, they truly think that light is enforceable. I have read quotes where they stated in as much.

Here are a few others, in PA. If you are on a one way street, and turning LEFT onto another one way street, you can go against the Red light.

Another, the painted lines on a roadway are not enforceable. They are a courtesy, the sign on the side of the road that read NO PASSING is the enforceable traffic device. The paint is just that, paint, not a signal or traffic device.

I do not condone the running or coasting through the stop pedestrian crossing in lots. BUT I do dislike rouge officers that should be enforcing the crimes code properly.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Where else would I park my car if it does fit in the driveway and I can't park on the street or sidewalk?

I don't know where you live but over the years friends, family, and I have lived in Massachusetts some options we've used have been:
Vehicle owner's yard
The grass strip between the street ant the sidewalk
Municipal (school) lot at no cost
Public garage at reduced/overnight cost
Lynn MBTA garage at no cost, when few commuters were using it
Expand the driveway
Rent space from a neighbor
ZipCar

It's not the ticketing officer's fault you forgot the parking ban was still on; by the way, it ended Saturday. Sunday morning after midnight, you were home free. Boston snowfall last year (2010-2011) was almost eight feet; if you live in the middle or western part of the state, odds are you got much more.

If you don't like the law, work to get it changed. But it's unreasonable to complain about a police officer doing his or her job simply because you 'forgot' it was still winter as far as your town's parking ban is concerned.

 

[dakcp2001]

I don't know the legal part of this OP, but just had to say something. When I took claims calls for a large insurance company, Walmart parking lot incidents were the #1 calls! WHAT is it about Walmart parking lots?

People caring about only themselves and not aking the extra minute to be safe. People would rather run you over than wait one minnute.

I think she should pay the ticket and be thankful for the reminder. She ran through a stop sign, so why are we even debating this? I bet if someone hit her car after running the stop sign, we'd all be demanding the offendfer be ticketed.

Don't want tickets? Follow the rules of common sense and public safety.

 

[John VN]

dakcp2001 wrote.....I think she should pay the ticket and be thankful for the reminder. She ran through a stop sign, so why are we even debating this? I bet if someone hit her car after running the stop sign, we'd all be demanding the offender be ticketed.

The debate is over the legality of the ticket given.

If in fact, there exists no law giving the police officer the authority to issue a ticket, the PO is then over stepping her/his authority to issue the ticket. The ticket is then null and void and should not be paid.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Based on the information provided by JohnVM and disneymarie (and probably others) and the laws of common sense, then:
the OP or the driver should arm herself with the applicable laws in that locale and dispute the validity of the ticket;
then, especially if the ticket is invalidated and no matter how old the offender, the OP needs to do something to make sure the seriousness of what she did(n't do) sinks in. Honestly, what was she thinking? How do you NOT stop, even in a parking lot, when common sense indicates cross traffic has the right of way?

Even if the police have no legal right to issue tickets, the signage is there for a reason: SAFETY. You come to the end of an aisle? Either end? Stop! And make sure there's nobody driving on the uninterrupted roadway. On that roadway, trying to get onto the perimeter/main road around the lot? Again, stop! - signage or not.

That driver should be grateful she got a ticket - valid or not - and not into an at-fault accident. She should consider this a reminder to STOP, no just slow down, wherever signage or common sense tells her to.

 

[KAMLEM]

Same thing happened to my mother. She was going up a marked lane in the correct direction and another vehicle blew through the parking lot, across the aisles. She hit my mom's car and totaled it. Police were called, there were witnesses. No one could be ruled at fault because it was on private property. My mother was responsible for the damage to her vehicle.

I'm all for ticketing those who violate the law. I just can't understand why those in accidents in parking lots can't be protected. Maybe it depends on where you live.

That doesn't sound right. Maybe the police could not give anyone a ticket because it was private property but that shouldn't matter to the insurance. It sounds like your mother was responsible for the damage because the insurance company found her at fault, not because it was on private property.

 

[disneymarie]

Based on the information provided by JohnVM and disneymarie (and probably others) and the laws of common sense, then:
the OP or the driver should arm herself with the applicable laws in that locale and dispute the validity of the ticket;
then, especially if the ticket is invalidated and no matter how old the offender, the OP needs to do something to make sure the seriousness of what she did(n't do) sinks in. Honestly, what was she thinking? How do you NOT stop, even in a parking lot, when common sense indicates cross traffic has the right of way?

Even if the police have no legal right to issue tickets, the signage is there for a reason: SAFETY. You come to the end of an aisle? Either end? Stop! And make sure there's nobody driving on the uninterrupted roadway. On that roadway, trying to get onto the perimeter/main road around the lot? Again, stop! - signage or not.

That driver should be grateful she got a ticket - valid or not - and not into an at-fault accident. She should consider this a reminder to STOP, no just slow down, wherever signage or common sense tells her to.

All that excellantly put.