The Intersection of FIRE and Disney

I currently have 1 in college, and another is a HS junior who plans to go to college. We don't know where the younger will go, but it is unlikely to be a local (NY) state school. So we have a pretty good idea what our costs are going to be, as out of state prices for state schools are generally only a bit less than private, so we're likely to pay in the upper range for both (D1 is at UMich which is in the very slightly below top tier private school cost range). But, 10 years ago, we had no idea, and we basically, like you, budgeted about $250k per kid, figuring if they come in for less then that's just found money to use elsewhere. But remember the $250k is an upwards moving target. I think, on average, it already is higher, unless they stay in state or go to a private school that offer non-need-based aid (there are more than you might think).

As for 529s, I think the comments here, yours and others, have identified the biggest weakness, which is the limitation. If your child(ren) don't go to a full price 4-year program, you either take out the money for other purposes with a penalty, or have to transfer it to someone else who can use it. That said, it has worked very well for us and I suggest people consider taking advantage, in part if not in whole. I also acknowledge my situation was probably on the extreme end of getting good value. Let me start by listing the reasons it was particularly useful for us.
  • We live in NYC. Our combined state and city marginal tax rate has been roughly 10% for my entire adult life.
  • NY state offers married couples a tax deduction for the first $10k of 529 plan contributions (individuals get $5k I believe). So by depositing at least $10k every year for the past 20 years or so we have received an instant ~$1k reduction on our state and local income taxes. I view it as I would 10% back on credit card spending. I'm not going to pass it up. It has cost us $9k of our own funds to save $10k for college every year.
  • We make enough to fully fund all other tax advantaged savings plans available to us, plus put at least $10k in the NY 529, so we never had to prioritize 401k against IRA against HSA against 529.
  • We were always pretty certain our daughters would both go to college and would probably not attend NY state schools. But this was never certain. It's still not certain for D2, as close as she is. But we figured it was a risk worth taking, and looks like it will probably pay off.
Even if none or most of these do not apply to you, 529 plans offer complete tax free growth and income (interest, dividends and capital gains) both for the period of saving and at withdrawal, as long as the withdrawal is for a qualified educational use. A few years ago they started allowing certain qualified withdrawals for pre-college level education, though I do not know those rules. If there's a chance your children might go to say a private HS (and this year has caused a lot of parents to reconsider the certainty of public schools), it's worth looking in to. Finally, though I have not done so, my understanding is it is pretty easy to transfer accounts from one beneficiary to another without penalty. This can be sibling to sibling, or to the next generation (or to a cousin or whatever).

So, if you have 2-3 kids, you can do all sorts of things, like fund enough in a 529 for one full price college run, and if the first child does not use it in whole or part, spread it around. This hedges your bets while giving you options, and unless none of your children attend any college whatsoever, you probably use up what is in the 529. A lot depends on you, your kids, do you live in a state with great state schools, etc. In the end, we had enough in D1's fund to pay for about 70% of her college career, and will use general funds to finish her out. D2 is on the same track, though once we know where she is going, and if it is not unexpectedly low cost, I will probably at that point transfer a chunk from general funds to her 529 to top her off in order to get the last few years of tax free growth and income and target having enough in the 529 to eventually pay 90%-100% of her costs.

It also helped that the NY plan is very much low cost, using Vanguard funds and charging low admin fees on top of that. I have a pretty low regard for NYC and NYS government, but they really did 529s the right way.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/finding-the-lowest-cost-529-savings-plans
Anyway, that's my analysis. Check your state rules, and consider even other state plans - some like NY allow OOS investors but some do not.
I will second this. For anyone trying to decide if 529s are a fit for their family, be sure to check out tax advantages. We live in Indiana, and the contributions to 529s are a state income tax credit (not deduction, but actual credit) at 20% up to $5,000 contributed yearly. So for our $5k yearly, we get back in taxes $1,000. We earn 20% on our 529s before we even factor in investment. Ours are also relatively low fee and the growth is not taxable. We also have four children, so at the level we are funding them, it’s not a big concern that it won’t be used. Our DS1 got a full tuition and fee covered scholarship to a state school honors program. That’s been a great fit, but dorm life is expensive and his 529 can be used for that. DS2 will probably also go to a state school, but I have no idea about DS3 and DD. We’ll have kids in college for potentially 15 years (only DS1 and DS2 overlap for a year). Our 529s aren’t so big yet that I’m concerned they’ll outgrow what can be used. However, if Indiana changes the tax credit, that will definitely change how we approach this.
 
What a truly terrible year to be a child - so many things missed that we'll never get back
I have said that to many people in 2020. I'm in my 50's so one year is pretty much the same as the next for me, but you'll only be a child of a certain age once before you grow and move on to the next stage of development. My nephew was 12, now 13 during 2020 and he's missed out on so much that you would only do at 12 and 13. Such a sad time for everyone.
 
I’m also in the no 529 camp. I haven’t done a ton of research on them but for now my plan is to just write a check for college for my kids lol.

This is what we are doing. I can't tell you I planned it that way though. lol It makes me go :sad:o_O:crazy2: when I send those payments out for 2 kids at a time. I just keep doing the countdown (now 3 1/2 years because we haven't paid spring yet) of when we are going to have tons of money we are able to earmark for vacations or other much funner things.
 
This is what we are doing. I can't tell you I planned it that way though. lol It makes me go :sad:o_O:crazy2: when I send those payments out for 2 kids at a time. I just keep doing the countdown (now 3 1/2 years because we haven't paid spring yet) of when we are going to have tons of money we are able to earmark for vacations or other much funner things.

This is the hardest part about retirement planning for me. Our younger two are 17 and 14. We know the storm is coming, financially. We know we'll be okay, but we just don't know how much we'll have when the rat has passed through the snake. DH has 4, maybe 5 (!!) pensions that will be coming in (a couple will be very small, but still...). Plus Social Security. Plus RMDs--inherited, his, and mine. So, we'll be fine, but probably not "Thurston and Lovey Howell" kind of fine. But, it makes me anxious in a way, because I can't point to any hard and fast numbers for the "outgo" when we're finally empty nesters.
 

I do feel for all the children of covid. Our youngest is 25 so we missed that part.

Our kids had 529's funded by their generous grandparents. Just a reminder they can be transferred to other family members, used for grad school, if the kids get academic scholarships they can withdraw an equivalent amount from the 529 without penalty (taxes are owed on the earnings).
 
I do feel for all the children of covid. Our youngest is 25 so we missed that part.

Our kids had 529's funded by their generous grandparents. Just a reminder they can be transferred to other family members, used for grad school, if the kids get academic scholarships they can withdraw an equivalent amount from the 529 without penalty (taxes are owed on the earnings).
I feel bad too. Our youngest is 20 and he even said he feels bad for the freshman coming in. We also have 529s funded partly by grandparent. Our daughters used theirs up as the went to grad school. Our son will have some left. I plan to leave it there and hope to transfer to grandchildren In the future.
 
Happy New Year all!!

So this is the first year I started tracking DH's expenses in my tracking software (I use YNAB and then export the data to Excel at YE because ... hello spreadsheet and pivot tables!!! 🤓) with the goal of better understanding our actual spending. I'd say I had about 75% of spending tracked before but DH tends to pay for the misc items like dining out, small purchases while on vacation, tips, basically petty cash stuff that is so hard to track. Of course this year ended up being anything but normal, but at least I'm able to account for all of our non standard spending this year.

Still finalizing a few things, but looks like our savings rate was 62% using the now famous SFF method or 48% if I count taxes as an expense. When I started my spreadsheet I couldn't figure out if I should include taxes or not so settled on tracking both. We're up from about 53%/40% savings rate for 2019.

Like many others we cancelled and postponed trips, however we spent nearly the equivalent on new carpet, a new sectional couch, and some other home improvement items (robot mop and vacuum = game changing when everyone is constantly home eating and making messes!!). I also stepped up our credit card churning so that helped to add to the bottom line.

Net worth increased about 36% (about 40% of that was due to market growth).

2021 goals include continuing to max out all investment options (401k, Roth, HSA), continue to utilize backdoor Roth IRA to super fund (got about $36K added to my Roth this year), and focus spending on areas that bring the most joy (have some house projects planned and hope to travel). Any excess savings will be moved to taxable and/or used to pay down mortgage (owe about $118K).

I look forward to following everyone's journey in 2021!!
 
Hi all. I follow this thread from time to time and would love to introduce myself.

My husband and I are 43, with four kids, aged 23, 20, 11 and 7. In 2020 we paid off our house. We live completely debt free and use credit cards to earn travel rewards. In late 2020 I left my high pressure job— I think this year will be the most pivotal year in our young kids lives and I want to be truly PRESENT for them.

I haven’t tracked annual savings rate, and only began tracking net worth growth since Sept. Since Sept our net worth has grown $171,453. I expect that growth to slow significantly as we plan to only have one income for quite some time. And we want to travel extensively in the next several years.

We have quite a bit of liquid savings which should be earning much more than it is currently earning in a savings account. I am thinking about Fidelity for additional investments, if anyone has any tips that way.
 
Happy 2021 everyone! I am excited because this is the year we plan to retire! Our Situation is a bit different. We do not have any pensions but we had a business that we sold in 2019. The money we got from selling it we consider “ our pension “ because we plan to use it to live off It alone until we are old enough for social security. I had never heard of FIRE before coming across this board but have been a saver my whole life, so we have a significant amount saved above and beyond what we got from our business and it too has been growing a lot this year. I haven’t tracked the percentages, but I feel confident that we have enough to live off. It is just a scary thought not to work and have that security. We are mid 50s and still have one kid in college, but the 529 will cover his expenses.
My only hesitation Is that I am not sure I we are diversified enough in our investments. We never had 401Ks but do have IRAs and stocks and I wish the CD rates were better! But I do not want to put too much more money in when the market is so high. These are the thoughts that run through my head.
 
I'm still waiting on the update to the Spreadsheet of Phenomenal Power. That, and our RMD number for 2021 (inherited IRA). I'd say my husband ius a slacker on these counts, but neither the update or the RMD number is going to change anything that we do.
 
Saw an interesting one-off line in a comment trail on r/financialindependence:
  • Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money.
This was from a post talking about how difficult it is to explain FIRE, or how you've achieved your results to somebody who is NOT in a FIRE mindset. I often wonder if there is something innately bestowed on us by the creator that causes us to be savers or spenders. Or perhaps it's something ingrained in us due to our upbringing or events in our formative years. Of course, it's probably a combination of these things, our personality traits we're born with combined with what we learn and see growing up.

That said, I'm interested among our crew here, where do you feel you naturally rank on the scale of SAVER vs. SPENDER.

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8....9....10
SAVER..............BALANCED.............SPENDER


For me, I think that I'm naturally in the 2-3 range. Definitely skewed heavily towards being a saver. Been that way all my life, I remember as a child getting out all of my pennies and making sure they were shiny, clean, and counting them. 😂 😂 And now as we start to see the FIRE snowball roll down the hill uncontrolled, I feel like I am trying to transition to being balanced - and rewarding ourselves a bit, which is fun!

So what about you guys? Thoughts?
 
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Saw an interesting one-off line in a comment trail on r/financialindependence:
  • Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money.
This was from a post talking about how difficult it is to explain FIRE, or how you've achieved your results to somebody who is NOT in a FIRE mindset. I often wonder if there is something innately bestowed on us by the creator that causes us to be savers or spenders. Or perhaps it's something ingrained in us due to our upbringing or events in our formative years. Of course, it's probably a combination of these things, our the personality traits we're born with combined with what we learn and see growing up.

That said, I'm interested among our crew here, where do you feel you naturally rank on the scale of SAVER vs. SPENDER.

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8....9....10
SAVER..............BALANCED.............SPENDER


For me, I think that I'm naturally in the 2-3 range. Definitely skewed heavily towards being a saver. Been that way all my life, I remember as a child getting out all of my pennies and making sure they were shiny, clean, and counting them. 😂 😂 And now as we start to see the FIRE snowball roll down the hill uncontrolled, I feel like I am trying to transition to being balanced - and rewarding ourselves a bit, which is fun!

So what about you guys? Thoughts?
Ah, good point and interesting question.

I'd say I'm a 4. I generally like to save, but certain categories (like travel and dining) I don't mind spending.
 
Saw an interesting one-off line in a comment trail on r/financialindependence:
  • Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money.
This was from a post talking about how difficult it is to explain FIRE, or how you've achieved your results to somebody who is NOT in a FIRE mindset. I often wonder if there is something innately bestowed on us by the creator that causes us to be savers or spenders. Or perhaps it's something ingrained in us due to our upbringing or events in our formative years. Of course, it's probably a combination of these things, our the personality traits we're born with combined with what we learn and see growing up.

That said, I'm interested among our crew here, where do you feel you naturally rank on the scale of SAVER vs. SPENDER.

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8....9....10
SAVER..............BALANCED.............SPENDER


For me, I think that I'm naturally in the 2-3 range. Definitely skewed heavily towards being a saver. Been that way all my life, I remember as a child getting out all of my pennies and making sure they were shiny, clean, and counting them. 😂 😂 And now as we start to see the FIRE snowball roll down the hill uncontrolled, I feel like I am trying to transition to being balanced - and rewarding ourselves a bit, which is fun!

So what about you guys? Thoughts?

I think it’s both personality and how you’re raised. For example, my brother and I are two very different people, raised the same. I would diligently save my allowance and jumped at the chance to do extra things around the house to earn more. My brother was near constantly “in debt” to my parents as he would take advances on his allowance (they did this hoping it would teach him the pitfalls of borrowing at a young age, they’re not entirely sure they should have allowed this). However, if you ask him now, he acknowledges that savings is good and would agree with all the principles my parents taught us, and now that he’s started his first job, he’s trying his best to fight the instinct to spend, and working save/invest while shaking his head at his peers buying flashy cars their first year.

To be honest, I’m probably a 6-7 natural spender. That allowance I would diligently save? It was almost always FOR something I wanted. Even as we save ~45-55% of our income, we could certainly be saving much more, up to 76% if we only spent on the necessary items, but the millennial YOLO in me is adamant that there’s zero reason we shouldn’t enjoy life today. My type A personality prevents that from going overboard, along with having an unmaterialistic husband, who’s probably a 4 on this scale, unless he’s in Costco or on DVC resale websites, where he completely transforms into a 8.
 
I think it’s both personality and how you’re raised. For example, my brother and I are two very different people, raised the same. I would diligently save my allowance and jumped at the chance to do extra things around the house to earn more. My brother was near constantly “in debt” to my parents as he would take advances on his allowance (they did this hoping it would teach him the pitfalls of borrowing at a young age, they’re not entirely sure they should have allowed this). However, if you ask him now, he acknowledges that savings is good and would agree with all the principles my parents taught us, and now that he’s started his first job, he’s trying his best to fight the instinct to spend, and working save/invest while shaking his head at his peers buying flashy cars their first year.

To be honest, I’m probably a 6-7 natural spender. That allowance I would diligently save? It was almost always FOR something I wanted. Even as we save ~45-55% of our income, we could certainly be saving much more, up to 76% if we only spent on the necessary items, but the millennial YOLO in me is adamant that there’s zero reason we shouldn’t enjoy life today. My type A personality prevents that from going overboard, along with having an unmaterialistic husband, who’s probably a 4 on this scale, unless he’s in Costco or on DVC resale websites, where he completely transforms into a 8.

Agree with all of this. I'd say among a FIRE crowd I'm more like a 6-7, among the general population definitely closer to a 2-3 (heck you could probably argue anyone who even knows what FIRE stands for is likely well below a 5). I like nice things, but now in my 40s have transitioned to fewer purchases, although they are usually more expensive as I value quality much more than quantity. I also value experiences much more and am willing to pay quite a price for those that are truly worthwhile.

I've learned my time is even more valuable than my money. If something is worth my time then I will find a way to make it work financially. This is where the credit card churning hobby really shines as it nearly offsets all of our travel costs, and in some cases offsets material purchases as well.
 
Saw an interesting one-off line in a comment trail on r/financialindependence:
  • Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money.
This was from a post talking about how difficult it is to explain FIRE, or how you've achieved your results to somebody who is NOT in a FIRE mindset. I often wonder if there is something innately bestowed on us by the creator that causes us to be savers or spenders. Or perhaps it's something ingrained in us due to our upbringing or events in our formative years. Of course, it's probably a combination of these things, our personality traits we're born with combined with what we learn and see growing up.

That said, I'm interested among our crew here, where do you feel you naturally rank on the scale of SAVER vs. SPENDER.

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8....9....10
SAVER..............BALANCED.............SPENDER


For me, I think that I'm naturally in the 2-3 range. Definitely skewed heavily towards being a saver. Been that way all my life, I remember as a child getting out all of my pennies and making sure they were shiny, clean, and counting them. 😂 😂 And now as we start to see the FIRE snowball roll down the hill uncontrolled, I feel like I am trying to transition to being balanced - and rewarding ourselves a bit, which is fun!

So what about you guys? Thoughts?
Probably 3-4. As to the nature or nurture question.
When I was a kid -- before online banking, ATMs or even direct deposit -- I was dragged pretty regularly to the bank with my parents, and developed a robust though not always accurate understanding of what they did.* At some point I asked my dad how much the bank charged to keep our money safe. He explained that they paid us for keeping it there, and when I then asked how they made money, he told me that the bank had other customers who did the opposite: they would take extra money from the bank and eventually pay back more than they took. I immediately thought "why would you ever do that? Having the bank pay you is better." And here I am today.
Somewhat related, I remember also a similar learning incident about casinos. I assumed the games were fair, but they charged an admission fee, maybe for how long you stayed and gambled. When I found out gambling was "free" but the games were rigged in favor of the house, I immediately decided it was ridiculous and have been bored by the concept ever since. Bottom line, I've always been extremely practical when it comes to money.

* Among other things, I noticed the FDIC insurance signs and used to believe the risk that was being insured against was bank robberies.
 
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I would say I'm in the middle. I would LIKE to spend, but I also save.

I'd say it's 50/50, nature versus nurture. I grew up pretty poor--probably considered lower middle class, since my parents owned a home, but we were in danger of losing that home several times when I was growing up. I have stark memories of driving to the bank to deposit a check so Mom could pay the mortgage and we wouldn't lose the house. I had to pay for my own clothes and extras since I was 11 or so, through paper routes, babysitting, and later, a part-time job. When I got to HS, I had to pay for my own books (Catholic school), lunches, bus fare, and, when I turned 16, contribute towards tuition. College? Hah! FAFSA said my parents could contribute $250/year! So, I paid for it all. (grants, loans, scholarships, working).

Because of the above, I have money anxiety to this day. I would constantly think of being NOT POOR. I chose a major that would pay well (electrical engineering), got a good job, started saving right away. Fast forward to now--we're doing fine. I still have money anxiety, but it helps that have plenty of savings, and specific "buckets" that are earmarked for big expenses.

Interestingly, my siblings don't seem to feel money anxiety like I do. They have other issues, to be sure. But, none felt compelled to get decent paying jobs and save.

One thing that I also found interesting is--my sister is a hoarder/crazy cat lady (although she's married). Several years back, her DH got a 7-figure medical settlement. She said that, once they received the money, her hoarding tendencies subsided a great deal. I guess she no longer felt the need to buy 27 dented cans of gravy, just because. And her cats--she used to have so many, she wouldn't say what the exact count was. And in her defense, she lived in a high-dump area--it's not like she sought them out (although she couldn't part with them, either--no home was good enough). She had more than 40 cats at one point. But, with the settlement, she could finally afford to get them health care, including neutering. She's now down to 8--still too many, IMHO, but at least she's moving in the right direction.
 
Saw an interesting one-off line in a comment trail on r/financialindependence:
  • Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money.
This was from a post talking about how difficult it is to explain FIRE, or how you've achieved your results to somebody who is NOT in a FIRE mindset. I often wonder if there is something innately bestowed on us by the creator that causes us to be savers or spenders. Or perhaps it's something ingrained in us due to our upbringing or events in our formative years. Of course, it's probably a combination of these things, our personality traits we're born with combined with what we learn and see growing up.

That said, I'm interested among our crew here, where do you feel you naturally rank on the scale of SAVER vs. SPENDER.

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8....9....10
SAVER..............BALANCED.............SPENDER


For me, I think that I'm naturally in the 2-3 range. Definitely skewed heavily towards being a saver. Been that way all my life, I remember as a child getting out all of my pennies and making sure they were shiny, clean, and counting them. 😂 😂 And now as we start to see the FIRE snowball roll down the hill uncontrolled, I feel like I am trying to transition to being balanced - and rewarding ourselves a bit, which is fun!
We were hard core savers.I think it has a lot to do with how we were raised. DH and I both grew up with parents of the depression era. When I met him he was the only person I knew whose mom also washed out and reused plastic storage bags. I recall I got $32 for my first communion and it went in the bank! My mom was an immigrant with an 8th grade education, dad was orphaned before he was 18 and went to college on the GI bill after WW II. He was an accountant and I learned about money (but not investing, had to learn that on my own). All 6 of us children knew we were expected to excel in school and go to college, and I knew from a young age I was paying for my own college education. As the youngest I didn't qualify for financial aid, so it was majoring in engineering and participating in the co-op program for me.

DH's dad grew up very poor and had scholarships all the way through his PhD. His mom was descended from the Amish and they were big on self-reliance. Her cousins invented several profitable pieces of machinery. The first 10 years of our marriage, our only vacations were visiting in-laws/grandparents in the summer at their cottage.

While my parents never had much money, MIL was an only child and inherited some from her folks, which she decided to use to pay for her 8 grandchildren's college educations. What a blessing. Our kids were also academically inclined and in good jobs. They are all good with money management which I believe they got from us! Now that we are empty nesters, we have loosened up a bit with more travel. Just bought an expensive house which I am looking at as a good investment. Hope to be able to help future grandchildren as our kids were helped. We realize how fortunate we have been.
 
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I don't know... I think there's more to it than that ("Most people don't want to HAVE (or SAVE) money, they want to SPEND money") perhaps. What I hypothesize is that people who tend to save more are more aware of what money can be for. Money (to me) isn't actually to buy things, it's to acquire time, safety, and sometimes power. That's the idea with FIRE is that you leverage money to buy you free time; time is what we actually run out of, and is much more precious than money as literal money. Saving money is then an attempt to gain what time we can. I don't want actual money, I want what money can give me in a non-consumer way; time. There are things we buy that grant us more time doing the things we want to do and being with the people we want to be with, and to simply live (by buying shelter, food, electricity, etc...)

So those that want to spend it, usually spend it as a consumer of goods; new cars, phones, toys, etc... which is often a reach for happiness in the moment. But, it's a vicious cycle, for to buy more toys you have to work more hours, which takes more time of your life, so some want to boost happiness with toys, for which you have to work more hours, etc...
 












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