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The Intersection of FIRE and Disney

We just updated our spreadsheet for 2020. Overall, we are thrilled with our numbers! Our investment portfolio performed better than we ever thought it could. Our annual spending was under budget. This was our second year working towards FIRE and we hit our 10% goal today. Our net worth skyrocketed with our commitment to maximizing our 401k, 403b, 457, both Roth IRAs, and throwing in any extra cash in our brokerage account. While it required a lot of discipline, it forced us to find what gives us a high quality of life. We were able to cut spending in areas that simply don't improve our QOL in ways we once thought, and that has been nice.

I know there will be a lot of ups and downs on the road to early retirement, but dang it I'm just going to enjoy this feeling for now...
 
Almost an impossible year to compare to prior years. Besides the Covid effects, I came into some inheritance, which was in turn almost fully offset by some one-time home improvement costs (which would have taken place even without the inheritance). On top of that, my non-paycheck income tax payments, both for the prior year and for estimated 2020, were about 60% higher in 2020 than 2019. With all that, our savings rate was about 46% using the @SouthFayetteFan method as particularized to our circumstances.

Net worth increased by roughly 15%. As we're pretty far along in this journey, and the net worth has gotten up there (we're probably past our FI number), our annual savings contributions has an ever smaller percentage effect on the net worth. Net worth is about 2.5x what it was 7 years ago.

Also, FWIW, all my net worth figures exclude our home and any funds set aside for college expenses.
 
Day 1 of 2021 and I stumbled upon this thread due to my lurking on the "i love credit cards" threads. While I've heard of FIRE and always been vaguely intrigued, I've never spent a ton of time diving into the concept and how it might work for our life. This thread inspired me and I've now spent the better part of this morning figuring out how 2020 looked for us, and what I want 2021 to look like. I'm not sure how invested into FIRE we'll get, but here's our background and starting point:

Married (26 and 27), no kids currently, but in the process of adopting and plan to have 2-4 kids total
Both of us work full-time
I've always been heavily focused on saving and being financially prudent, though we love to travel and spend $$ on that, offset as much as possible by credit card rewards
We live in a HCOL area (Southern California), and only have 15% equity in our townhome (our mortgage is on par with rental rates in the area, so I included the principal payments in the savings calculation)

2020 Savings Rate using the method detailed by SFF: 44.5%
2021 Goal Savings Rate: ~55%

While this seems like it's on the way towards helping us with FIRE, I don't know if that will totally make sense. For example, a decent chunk of our savings in 2021 will be going towards a car fund to purchase a larger car (in cash, no financing) once we have kids around. Also, we want to sock away cash to help us with a down payment on a larger home, again, for the hopefully incoming kids. Said children will also mean we need to save for college funds, which won't help us with FIRE. We do max out 401ks and HSAs, but we're ineligible for IRAs, and, as mentioned above, all other post-tax savings are/will-be siting in savings accounts with designated purposes.

Should I then only consider money set aside exclusively for retirement as our FIRE savings %? If so, we would be at a much lower 22%.
 


Should I then only consider money set aside exclusively for retirement as our FIRE savings %? If so, we would be at a much lower 22%.
As SFF often says, it is more important to calculate your savings rate consistently than it is to use a perfect formula. For my purposes, even though I do not include 529 college funds when I calculate my net worth because they do not contribute to my FI or RE, I nevertheless include my annual 529 contributions as part of my savings when I calculate my savings rate. My rationale is that I'm trying to measure how much I currently save compared to current income and current spending and 529 contributions are current savings. I could also justify excluding them altogether. I could even justify counting them as spending, as it is sort of pre-paying a portion of college costs. But it's not current spending, nor is it helpful to count it as spending if I want to use current spending as a model/predictor of retirement spending. So I count it as savings, even though it's a sort of black box savings account that's invisible to my FIRE net worth.

I'd be inclined in your position to count all your savings when calculating savings rate. BUT, I would also consider adding a couple of lines to the spreadsheet to separately calculate the FIRE SR. It's just a few extra calculations to make when you build your spreadsheet, and then should be pretty automatic. Then, as you hopefully shed short term savings goals, your FIRE SR will go up and start approaching your overall SR, and let you have an added sense of achievement.
 
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As SFF often says, it is more important to calculate your savings rate consistently than it is to use a perfect formula. For my purposes, even though I do not include 529 college funds when I calculate my net worth because they do not contribute to my FI or RE, I nevertheless include my annual 529 contributions as part of my savings when I calculate my savings rate. My rationale is that I'm trying to measure how much I currently save compared to current income and current spending and 529 contributions are current savings. I could also justify excluding them altogether. I could even justify counting them as spending, as it is sort of pre-paying a portion of college costs. But it's not current spending, nor is it helpful to count it as spending if I want to use current spending as a model/predictor of retirement spending. So I count it as savings, even though it's a sort of black box savings account that's invisible to my FIRE net worth.

I'd be inclined in your position to count all your savings when calculating savings rate. BUT, I would also consider adding a couple of lines to the spreadsheet to separately calculate the FIRE SR. It's not just a few extra calculations to make when you build your spreadsheet, and then should be pretty automatic. Then, as you hopefully shed short term savings goals, your FIRE SR will go up and start approaching your overall SR, and let you have an added sense of achievement.

This is very helpful, thanks! I think the idea of breaking out my total SR into short-term and long-term will help immensely, and to your point, over time the short-term SR should decrease and the long-term SR will increase, so it's just a mix allocation.
 
All I can say is…..you are my people. I started updating once the markets closed yesterday. DH was like, come downstairs, the food and drinks are ready. And I’m like, you know that I need to do this first. He just laughed and said when you’re done counting the money let me know how much we have. Definitely a banner year.
 


On the 2nd statement - I feel like I'm there too now. My goal isn't to have $10MM, so it's time to make sure I'm not missing any opportunities to live life and make things better now. We aren't going to go out and buy a brand new Lexus, but we are looking to spend money for enjoyment and improved QOL now!
Same. If we worked to "normal" retirement age we would likely be in the $10MM range but we have no desires that require that. Slow travel is relatively cheap and we have no desire for a bigger house. Only item on our wish list that is relatively spendy are cars we would like to buy but those purchases will only happen if we pass our FI number and decide to keep working.

I'd be inclined in your position to count all your savings when calculating savings rate. BUT, I would also consider adding a couple of lines to the spreadsheet to separately calculate the FIRE SR. It's not just a few extra calculations to make when you build your spreadsheet, and then should be pretty automatic. Then, as you hopefully shed short term savings goals, your FIRE SR will go up and start approaching your overall SR, and let you have an added sense of achievement.
This is exactly what we do with NW (calculate it 3 ways). A couple of those include money we have earmarked for home improvements and vacation but we still find value in those totals because if the world went to crap... that is still cash we can tap to get us through.

As mentioned, the most important thing is to calculate it the same way constantly. That allows you to track progress with apples to apples numbers.
 
Wow so many people using the newly termed "SFF method" of savings rate! I sort of feel honored, lol. Trust me when I say that it is not the only way to do it. I'm glad many chimed in to say consistency > formula.

And that's also why comparison to others is not your friend here. I try to avoid comparing my result to anybody else's because I'm (a) not competing with them and (b) certainly in a much different situation than them in many ways.

That said, I am happy to report that we saved $75,716.43 this year. Our savings rate was 69.0% per my calculation methodology. Our NW increased by $173,919.07 this year. (If you can't tell, I really enjoy being PRECISE with this stuff, haha!) We are getting very close to a NW milestone that begins with EIGHT which I never thought would happen this quickly back in Mar/Apr.

And maybe most exciting (in a completely meaningless way)... We have officially attained LEAN FIRE eligibility!! (Meaning we have cash/investments that exceed 25x our lowest case expenses). I would never actually accept Lean Fire for a TON of reasons. (Mainly because it would involve treating my children terribly so that I could stop working). But it's neat to know we got there.

It seems that actual FIRE status is on pace to occur in 6-7 years although I see myself working ~15 more years until around 50 when my younger daughter would graduate college. Who knows though, that plan could change a lot in 10 years, or 5 years, or tomorrow 😂 😂

Also of note, I would give up all of this year's financial success if it would've allowed my children's lives to not be decimated. 😞 What a truly terrible year to be a child - so many things missed that we'll never get back.
 
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I'm going to have to wait a week or so, for DH to update the "Spreadsheet of Phenomenal Cosmic Power" (you need to read that with an "echo" to it). For us, there are just so many moving parts. And in addition to our net worth, he'll update the net worth of our kids--they each have multiple trusts (this sounds more impressive than it is--they were given/left money by their grandmother. It's enough to give them a nice start in life, not enough to become a beach bum or anything). We also have inherited stuff in a wide range of accounts. Most of this is earmarked for college and retirement. OTOH, we have a large vacation budget--a nod to my MIL, who was a world traveler--and spent none of it in 2020. And I'm not willing to book much for 2021 at this time. We do have a niece's wedding and family vacation planned for July--here's hoping we can actually do those.

I know we're "up" for 2020, I'm looking forward to the actual numbers. And I will say to the people striving for FI--it's nice to know that we could. DH has no immediate plans to do so, however--he's one of those weirdos who likes his job. Plus, our youngest is 14, and having benefits to cover the children is worth a lot to us. When DH hits 60 (in 2 years), we'll start seriously considering the glide path into retirement. Currently, he plans to work until 65, but doesn't have a real vision of what he'll do in retirement.
 
For my purposes, even though I do not include 529 college funds when I calculate my net worth because they do not contribute to my FI or RE, I nevertheless include my annual 529 contributions as part of my savings when I calculate my savings rate. My rationale is that I'm trying to measure how much I currently save compared to current income and current spending and 529 contributions are current savings.

I second this approach. When debating what to include in savings rate and net worth, I landed on one solid yes and one solid no for 529 contributions. The contributions are definitely savings for us: they're money that we don't spend on items and we've pulled them out of our budget for future expenditures. On the other hand, they're not part of our net worth: we won't touch those assets for any spending of our own.

I actually have a number of items that I save for in an ongoing manner that I don't include in our net worth. The college accounts for each kid, our insurance/property tax escrow, auto insurance/umbrella insurance/auto registration premiums, DVC dues, vacation, saving to buy our next car, income tax withholding for side gigs/expected capital gains when selling securities, and household repairs. Some of those easily could be counted in net worth, but this works for us.

To each his/her own!
 
Wow so many people using the newly termed "SFF method" of savings rate! I sort of feel honored, lol. Trust me when I say that it is not the only way to do it. I'm glad many chimed in to say consistency > formula.

And that's also why comparison to others is not your friend here. I try to avoid comparing my result to anybody else's because I'm (a) not competing with them and (b) certainly in a much different situation than them in many ways.

That said, I am happy to report that we saved $75,716.43 this year. Our savings rate was 69.0% per my calculation methodology. Our NW increased by $173,919.07 this year. (If you can't tell, I really enjoy being PRECISE with this stuff, haha!) We are getting very close to a NW milestone that begins with EIGHT which I never thought would happen this quickly back in Mar/Apr.

And maybe most exciting (in a completely meaningless way)... We have officially attained LEAN FIRE eligibility!! (Meaning we have cash/investments that exceed 25x our lowest case expenses). I would never actually accept Lean Fire for a TON of reasons. (Mainly because it would involve treating my children terribly so that I could stop working). But it's neat to know we got there.

It seems that actual FIRE status is on pace to occur in 6-7 years although I see myself working ~15 more years until around 50 when my younger daughter would graduate college. Who knows though, that plan could change a lot in 10 years, or 5 years, or tomorrow 😂 😂

Also of note, I would give up all of this year's financial success if it would've allowed my children's lives to not be decimated. 😞 What a truly terrible year to be a child - so many things missed that we'll never get back.
You've probably already quoted this a dozen times throughout the thread...but would you mind reposting the SFF method for those of us considering alternative calculation methods?
 
Here you go...
Since somebody shared their calculation, I'll share mine too! My savings rate calculation is super complex (to the surprise of nobody...lol). Basically it's expressed as "total annual savings" divided by "gross pay less income taxes":

Numerator:
  • 401k Contributions (Roth & Trad) + 401k Employer Match
  • [PLUS] IRA Contributions (Roth & Trad)
  • [PLUS] NET HSA Contributions (net of annual reimbursements) + HSA Employer Contribution
  • [PLUS] Other Investment Share Purchases (or [LESS] sale of shares)
  • [PLUS] Mortgage Principal Payments
  • [PLUS] NET result of all liquid cash accounts (or [LESS] this amount if net cash decreases for the year)
Denominator:
  • Paycheck Deposits (actual take home amount)
  • [PLUS] 401k Contributions (Roth & Trad) + 401k Employer Match
  • [PLUS] HSA Contributions (net of annual reimbursements) + HSA Employer Contribution
  • [PLUS] Medical Dental Premiums withheld (and this also ends up being an expense of an equal amount which affects my "net result of liquid accounts")
  • [PLUS] Tax Refund (or [LESS] Taxes Owed) - This is actually tied to a "prior year" event but it makes it easier to keep it within the calendar year.
I know there are a lot of ways to calculate this. I've been using this calculation since 2008 and the consistency is what makes the number meaningful to me. I look at it like what I said before: "total annual savings" divided by "gross pay less income taxes."

My spreadsheet gives me a number of interesting numbers that I can analyze year over year including:
  • SUBTOTAL - WAGES & TAX REFUNDS
  • GRAND TOTAL - CASH INFLOWS
  • TOTAL - EXPENSES
  • TOTAL - SAVINGS TRANSFERS
  • GRAND TOTAL - CASH OUTFLOWS
  • NET RESULT OF LIQUID CASH ACCOUNTS
  • TOTAL NET SAVINGS (LOSS)
  • Savings as a % of Take Home Pay
  • Expenses as a % of Take Home Pay
  • TOTAL CASH/INVESTMENTS (at year end)
  • NET WORTH (at year end)'
I might enjoy this time of year a bit too much 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
 
I second this approach. When debating what to include in savings rate and net worth, I landed on one solid yes and one solid no for 529 contributions. The contributions are definitely savings for us: they're money that we don't spend on items and we've pulled them out of our budget for future expenditures. On the other hand, they're not part of our net worth: we won't touch those assets for any spending of our own.

I actually have a number of items that I save for in an ongoing manner that I don't include in our net worth. The college accounts for each kid, our insurance/property tax escrow, auto insurance/umbrella insurance/auto registration premiums, DVC dues, vacation, saving to buy our next car, income tax withholding for side gigs/expected capital gains when selling securities, and household repairs. Some of those easily could be counted in net worth, but this works for us.

To each his/her own!

529's are weird for us. We're not actually huge fans--I don't like the restrictions. However, DD17 has one (set up by the same generous grandmother and passed down from DD25). We have other stuff that we've mentally earmarked to cover college for our younger two. We do include that in our net worth, for now. It's just too complicated to know for sure how things will land (merit scholarships? State versus private? grad school? no college?). DH and I are figuring on $250k per kid, we're not getting any need-based aid. If they choose the pricey undergrad, don't expect us to pony up for grad school. But, this is highly personal--some parents are willing to pay whatever it takes, others won't pay a dime of college. It's amazing, if you read Bogleheads, how many very wealthy people won't pay for the children's college.

Anyway, 529's are fine for some people. I just don't like them.
 
529's are weird for us. We're not actually huge fans--I don't like the restrictions. However, DD17 has one (set up by the same generous grandmother and passed down from DD25). We have other stuff that we've mentally earmarked to cover college for our younger two. We do include that in our net worth, for now. It's just too complicated to know for sure how things will land (merit scholarships? State versus private? grad school? no college?). DH and I are figuring on $250k per kid, we're not getting any need-based aid. If they choose the pricey undergrad, don't expect us to pony up for grad school. But, this is highly personal--some parents are willing to pay whatever it takes, others won't pay a dime of college. It's amazing, if you read Bogleheads, how many very wealthy people won't pay for the children's college.

Anyway, 529's are fine for some people. I just don't like them.
I’m also in the no 529 camp. I haven’t done a ton of research on them but for now my plan is to just write a check for college for my kids lol.
 
Here you go...
Thanks for sharing. I'm not too different, but I do have a question: the tax refund. I couldn't quite figure this out myself, so I ended up dumping this into a separate section that tracks our federal income tax/state income tax/local income tax/Social Security/Medicare payments, netting the various income tax refunds against our withholding. I've never felt like this is quite "right," but for the life of me I can't figure out how else to handle it. We normally just dump our refund into a Roth so it ends up getting picked up as savings after that next step.
 
Thanks for sharing. I'm not too different, but I do have a question: the tax refund. I couldn't quite figure this out myself, so I ended up dumping this into a separate section that tracks our federal income tax/state income tax/local income tax/Social Security/Medicare payments, netting the various income tax refunds against our withholding. I've never felt like this is quite "right," but for the life of me I can't figure out how else to handle it. We normally just dump our refund into a Roth so it ends up getting picked up as savings after that next step.
I’m adding the tax refund into the denominator to basically express “savings” divided by something along the lines of “take home pay”. In my numerator it just gets buried in there as that accounts for the entire net result of our financial situation.
 
529's are weird for us. We're not actually huge fans--I don't like the restrictions. However, DD17 has one (set up by the same generous grandmother and passed down from DD25). We have other stuff that we've mentally earmarked to cover college for our younger two. We do include that in our net worth, for now. It's just too complicated to know for sure how things will land (merit scholarships? State versus private? grad school? no college?). DH and I are figuring on $250k per kid, we're not getting any need-based aid. If they choose the pricey undergrad, don't expect us to pony up for grad school. But, this is highly personal--some parents are willing to pay whatever it takes, others won't pay a dime of college. It's amazing, if you read Bogleheads, how many very wealthy people won't pay for the children's college.

Anyway, 529's are fine for some people. I just don't like them.

I totally agree with you. I’m personally not even in the “my children must go to college” camp. I think there are too many kids who don’t like school and aren’t well suited for college who would be MUCH better suited for trades or other career paths which will afford them a living without needing higher education. So, I’ll plan on saving enough to pay for at least most of my kid’s college, but through investments so that there’s no harm if they don’t end up attending. Maybe we can help them get a start in a different way, instead.
 
I totally agree with you. I’m personally not even in the “my children must go to college” camp. I think there are too many kids who don’t like school and aren’t well suited for college who would be MUCH better suited for trades or other career paths which will afford them a living without needing higher education. So, I’ll plan on saving enough to pay for at least most of my kid’s college, but through investments so that there’s no harm if they don’t end up attending. Maybe we can help them get a start in a different way, instead.

Our youngest wants to go to college (studying chemical engineering, no less), but he also wants to start a business. We figure we'll pay for undergrad--engineers are likely to get grad school paid for in some way--and he can use his trusts for seed money for the business. He'll have access to some when he turns 21, some when he graduates college, and some when he's 30--that's how it's set up. He's 14 now, so he's got a ways to go, but he's the only one of our kids who's actually interested in finance and investing. He's getting another small inheritance (~$10k) from a great-uncle this year, we'll likely put that into Apple stock for him.

And on a side note-what is it with my kids getting all these trusts and insurance payouts and inheritances? Why didn't I have a wealthy grandmother or childless great-uncle? Yeah, yeah, I know, life is unfair, and I'm doing fine. But, I thought these things only happened in bad romance novels. Okay, rant over.
 
529's are weird for us. We're not actually huge fans--I don't like the restrictions. However, DD17 has one (set up by the same generous grandmother and passed down from DD25). We have other stuff that we've mentally earmarked to cover college for our younger two. We do include that in our net worth, for now. It's just too complicated to know for sure how things will land (merit scholarships? State versus private? grad school? no college?). DH and I are figuring on $250k per kid, we're not getting any need-based aid. If they choose the pricey undergrad, don't expect us to pony up for grad school. But, this is highly personal--some parents are willing to pay whatever it takes, others won't pay a dime of college. It's amazing, if you read Bogleheads, how many very wealthy people won't pay for the children's college.

Anyway, 529's are fine for some people. I just don't like them.
I currently have 1 in college, and another is a HS junior who plans to go to college. We don't know where the younger will go, but it is unlikely to be a local (NY) state school. So we have a pretty good idea what our costs are going to be, as out of state prices for state schools are generally only a bit less than private, so we're likely to pay in the upper range for both (D1 is at UMich which is in the very slightly below top tier private school cost range). But, 10 years ago, we had no idea, and we basically, like you, budgeted about $250k per kid, figuring if they come in for less then that's just found money to use elsewhere. But remember the $250k is an upwards moving target. I think, on average, it already is higher, unless they stay in state or go to a private school that offer non-need-based aid (there are more than you might think).

As for 529s, I think the comments here, yours and others, have identified the biggest weakness, which is the limitation. If your child(ren) don't go to a full price 4-year program, you either take out the money for other purposes with a penalty, or have to transfer it to someone else who can use it. That said, it has worked very well for us and I suggest people consider taking advantage, in part if not in whole. I also acknowledge my situation was probably on the extreme end of getting good value. Let me start by listing the reasons it was particularly useful for us.
  • We live in NYC. Our combined state and city marginal tax rate has been roughly 10% for my entire adult life.
  • NY state offers married couples a tax deduction for the first $10k of 529 plan contributions (individuals get $5k I believe). So by depositing at least $10k every year for the past 20 years or so we have received an instant ~$1k reduction on our state and local income taxes. I view it as I would 10% back on credit card spending. I'm not going to pass it up. It has cost us $9k of our own funds to save $10k for college every year.
  • We make enough to fully fund all other tax advantaged savings plans available to us, plus put at least $10k in the NY 529, so we never had to prioritize 401k against IRA against HSA against 529.
  • We were always pretty certain our daughters would both go to college and would probably not attend NY state schools. But this was never certain. It's still not certain for D2, as close as she is. But we figured it was a risk worth taking, and looks like it will probably pay off.
Even if none or most of these do not apply to you, 529 plans offer complete tax free growth and income (interest, dividends and capital gains) both for the period of saving and at withdrawal, as long as the withdrawal is for a qualified educational use. A few years ago they started allowing certain qualified withdrawals for pre-college level education, though I do not know those rules. If there's a chance your children might go to say a private HS (and this year has caused a lot of parents to reconsider the certainty of public schools), it's worth looking in to. Finally, though I have not done so, my understanding is it is pretty easy to transfer accounts from one beneficiary to another without penalty. This can be sibling to sibling, or to the next generation (or to a cousin or whatever).

So, if you have 2-3 kids, you can do all sorts of things, like fund enough in a 529 for one full price college run, and if the first child does not use it in whole or part, spread it around. This hedges your bets while giving you options, and unless none of your children attend any college whatsoever, you probably use up what is in the 529. A lot depends on you, your kids, do you live in a state with great state schools, etc. In the end, we had enough in D1's fund to pay for about 70% of her college career, and will use general funds to finish her out. D2 is on the same track, though once we know where she is going, and if it is not unexpectedly low cost, I will probably at that point transfer a chunk from general funds to her 529 to top her off in order to get the last few years of tax free growth and income and target having enough in the 529 to eventually pay 90%-100% of her costs.

It also helped that the NY plan is very much low cost, using Vanguard funds and charging low admin fees on top of that. I have a pretty low regard for NYC and NYS government, but they really did 529s the right way.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/finding-the-lowest-cost-529-savings-plans
Anyway, that's my analysis. Check your state rules, and consider even other state plans - some like NY allow OOS investors but some do not.
 

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