Teen bullying leads to a double suicide

[bicker]

Actually you are making things black and white. I'm saying things are never going to be perfect but instead of focusing on trying to change the unchangeable fix and improve what is worth changing.

Thanks for clarifying what you wrote, but your logic is self-justifying and therefore doesn't hold water: I doubt even you believe that the amount of bullying is "unchangeable".

We will never have a Utopian society.

That doesn't justify your opposition to what you replied to, i.e., my implication that we should be trying to make things better in the manner I suggested.

No one disagreed with that either.

So you're saying that we all agree then?

I think are reading things WAY to black an white

That's what I said about what you wrote. The difference is that it actually applies to what you wrote, because you implied that we shouldn't be working to reduce the amount of bullying.

Unless you want to further clarify what you wrote.

just because someone is saying empower the victim doesn't mean they are saying the bully should not be punished for his actions.

Pay special attention to these two things you've outlined. "Empower the victim" needs to be operationalized, while "punish the bully" is already operationalized. Exhorting non-operational remediation is a common tactic for advocating the doing of nothing.

Like I said there are a ton of bully reports on the news but I want them to interview the bully. Put them on the spot. Ask them how they feel knowing they are part of the reason someone killed themselves.

This might be a fantastic idea.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Or, they need to be strong enough to report the problems, testify in court against their boss that this was happening. They need to also NOT put themselves into situations where these things can happen. It is called empowering yourself-not blaming the victim. The law IS on their side in these situations--but also keep in mind that there have been plenty of false accusations going on where the so called "victim" is really the instigator--the Duke case is a prime example. These boys were falsely accused and now their lives are ruined.

Thanks for gettin' what I was tryin' to convey, that harassment 'n assault are crimes 'n often blamed on the woman for invitin' that type of behavior.

I favor our society to stop coddlin' minors, stop callin' harassment bullyin' coz if this type of behavior is outside the confines of a school or playground, it's not bullyin', it's a crime called harassment 'n assault.

 

[Planogirl]

My DD12 is currently involved in a bullying situation right now. It started five weeks ago and I tried to coach her through with ways to "ignore", "fight back", "find new friends", etc. It wasn't working so I stepped in. Made a phone call to the school, parents, etc. NOBODY knew what was going on.

Currently (as of this weekend), the bully is trying to form a "pack" of girls to side with her on Facebook because all heck is breaking loose and the bully is starting to panic because she thinks she is going to lose her friends. Turns out she has been bullying a lot of girls, but no one has said anything to this bully because she has been threatening physical violence against these girls, including my daughter. I don't know all the details because my DD12 is not allowed on Facebook and I don't have a FB account either, but a friend of mine called to let me know this was going on, because her DD told her and to warn me what was going on and what my DD might be faced with on Monday. YOU BET I am going in to school Monday AM. My DD12 has tried to "let this roll off her back". WHY should she have to? This girl is just mean and she should be reprimanded and I don't believe in this "get together and apologize" crap either. IF someone treats you bad, you shouldn't have to be "friendly" with them. NO WAY. Yes, we have to be civil and coexist in society, but I am not going to tell my daughter that she should have to put up with people like this. Would you?

It's clear that in my DD12's particular situation that teaching the child to not be a victim worked...it didn't. She needed me to help her and I am glad she came to me. Kids are not mature enough to handle this all of the time. I think as a society we want our kids to grow up too fast. Don't assume they can handle or should handle tough situations.

I don't think that your daughter is playing a victim at all. She tried to handle it herself and when that didn't work she came to you for help. That is being wise and doing the right thing IMO.

I do believe that kids need to be taught to not be bullies of course but also how to handle these situations if they are on the receiving end. They need to be comfortable to go to the adults in their lives and request that often needed help. It seems like so many kids try to keep way too much of this stuff to themselves.

I feel so sad for these girls. I think that how they handled this might imply that they couldn't think of a way out of their situation. I don't blame anyone in particular for this but I would just say that there might have been a lack of communication and a tendency for the school to turn a blind eye to what is actually going on. We have to make sure that kids understand that there are ways out and that there are people that will help.

 

[castleview]

My DD12 is currently involved in a bullying situation right now. It started five weeks ago and I tried to coach her through with ways to "ignore", "fight back", "find new friends", etc. It wasn't working so I stepped in. Made a phone call to the school, parents, etc. NOBODY knew what was going on.

Currently (as of this weekend), the bully is trying to form a "pack" of girls to side with her on Facebook because all heck is breaking loose and the bully is starting to panic because she thinks she is going to lose her friends. Turns out she has been bullying a lot of girls, but no one has said anything to this bully because she has been threatening physical violence against these girls, including my daughter. I don't know all the details because my DD12 is not allowed on Facebook and I don't have a FB account either, but a friend of mine called to let me know this was going on, because her DD told her and to warn me what was going on and what my DD might be faced with on Monday. YOU BET I am going in to school Monday AM. My DD12 has tried to "let this roll off her back". WHY should she have to? This girl is just mean and she should be reprimanded and I don't believe in this "get together and apologize" crap either. IF someone treats you bad, you shouldn't have to be "friendly" with them. NO WAY. Yes, we have to be civil and coexist in society, but I am not going to tell my daughter that she should have to put up with people like this. Would you?

It's clear that in my DD12's particular situation that teaching the child to not be a victim worked...it didn't. She needed me to help her and I am glad she came to me. Kids are not mature enough to handle this all of the time. I think as a society we want our kids to grow up too fast. Don't assume they can handle or should handle tough situations.

I hope none of my posts implied that bullying victims need to handle it themselves. Adults should get involved and nip it in the bud as best they can. Nice job handling this by the way. By stepping in, you are letting everyone know that what this girl is doing is not acceptable or tolerable on any level.

 

[castleview]

Not shooting everyone down at all, just those of you who seem to imply that victims have a bigger hand in stopping bullies, or that there is a one size fits all solution.

I have been trying for years to come up with solutions, and as I admitted, the advent of social media has made it almost impossible to deal with bullying as it goes on 24 hours a day.

We don't look for one size fit all solutions at my school. We are a specialized program that deals with each case on an individualized basis; therfore, what works for 1 bully, does not work for another. So, I can't give you any perfect solutions - I didn't say I had all of the solutions either. What we do most is promote a very positive atmosphere in acceptance and inclusion of all. We can do that as we cap our program at less than 200 students. Schools with thousand of kids, cannot possibly do this.



Tiger

Actually, you kind of are. If the victim doesn't have the bigger hand, then the parents do. Yes, social media stinks but you can't have a defeatist attitude. My theory is that if anyone can take the time to harass my kids online, I'll find a way to make sure it's taken care of. Even if nothing can be done legally, I'm pretty good at making people miserable.

My DD9 had a situation early in the school year. A kid would come up to her and throw wood chips at her. She didn't care for that so she chased him down and tackled him. She ended up in the principal's office and had to miss a recess. I'm okay with that. Nothing has happened since.

 

[Tiger926]

Actually, you kind of are. If the victim doesn't have the bigger hand, then the parents do. Yes, social media stinks but you can't have a defeatist attitude. My theory is that if anyone can take the time to harass my kids online, I'll find a way to make sure it's taken care of. Even if nothing can be done legally, I'm pretty good at making people miserable.

My DD9 had a situation early in the school year. A kid would come up to her and throw wood chips at her. She didn't care for that so she chased him down and tackled him. She ended up in the principal's office and had to miss a recess. I'm okay with that. Nothing has happened since.

Not defeatist at all. Once our students leave our property, there is nothing we can do. And it takes good educators to admit that bullying is at a point that we can't control. It is a reality that we live with each and everyday. Talk to the police about drugs, and they will espouse the same sentiments. Once you admit that a problem is difficult to deal with, then you can work towards solutions.

No one said we are giving up. Quite the contrary, but we live in the world of reality, and know that we can't control our students once they leave our doors. Heck, we struggle to control some of them when they are within our doors.

Regarding your daughter...I won't comment on that. You are her parent and if that result was acceptable to you, then there is no place for any judgment on my part.

Like I said, each case is different...And you are an involved parent of a young kid. The teens in the article, as with my students, don't have much parental involvement. I have already made myself clear many times, that dealing with highschoolers is vastly different than elementary students. I can't control their cell phones, access to Facebook time at home, etc., but these elements do have an effect on my school when they cyberbully their peers. Highschoolers also struggle greatly with depression, and so like the girls mentioned, suicide is an option that many of them contemplate or actually follow through with. This is our greatest fear as educators...

Like I said, most educators will admit we don't have the answers, and bullying is a scary topic for many of us, especiallly when we have to visit one of our students in jail, hospital or funeral homes as a result of that. Been there, done that...

Tiger

 

[golfgal]

Not defeatist at all. Once our students leave our property, there is nothing we can do. And it takes good educators to admit that bullying is at a point that we can't control. It is a reality that we live with each and everyday. Talk to the police about drugs, and they will espouse the same sentiments. Once you admit that a problem is difficult to deal with, then you can work towards solutions.

No one said we are giving up. Quite the contrary, but we live in the world of reality, and know that we can't control our students once they leave our doors. Heck, we struggle to control some of them when they are within our doors.

Regarding your daughter...I won't comment on that. You are her parent and if that result was acceptable to you, then there is no place for any judgment on my part.

Like I said, each case is different...And you are an involved parent of a young kid. The teens in the article, as with my students, don't have much parental involvement. I have already made myself clear many times, that dealing with highschoolers is vastly different than elementary students. I can't control their cell phones, access to Facebook time at home, etc., but these elements do have an effect on my school when they cyberbully their peers. Highschoolers also struggle greatly with depression, and so like the girls mentioned, suicide is an option that many of them contemplate or actually follow through with. This is our greatest fear as educators...

Like I said, most educators will admit we don't have the answers, and bullying is a scary topic for many of us, especiallly when we have to visit one of our students in jail, hospital or funeral homes as a result of that. Been there, done that...

Tiger

Well then, I am glad our kids aren't in your program. Our schools take a VERY strong stand at internet bullying-and texting, etc. Schools in our area have suspended/expelled kids for things that have happened on Facebook. They have people monitoring those sites on a regular basis as a matter of fact. Now, I don't agree that it should be up to the schools to deal with these things but since they start there quite often, that is where they are dealt with.

 

[Tiger926]

Well then, I am glad our kids aren't in your program. Our schools take a VERY strong stand at internet bullying-and texting, etc. Schools in our area have suspended/expelled kids for things that have happened on Facebook. They have people monitoring those sites on a regular basis as a matter of fact. Now, I don't agree that it should be up to the schools to deal with these things but since they start there quite often, that is where they are dealt with.

Nowhere did I say we didn't supsend or expell? Where in the world did you get that from?

When they leave our property, we can't control their cell phone usage, who they talk to, or their Facebook time. They are in control of parents, if they have parents at home. We don't have the manpower to monitor 24 hours a day, and it is highly unlikely that your district is doing that. We may monitor, once a situation comes to our attention, but most of it is turned over to the police. But if we don't know about it, we can't do anything about it. If the kids bring a Facebook situation to school, and attempt to continue it at school, as long as we know about it, we can act on it, if we don't, then we can't do anything about it, until it's brought to our attention.

Perhaps now you are seeing how difficult bullying is to deal with. If parents don't know about it, and the kids keep it secret from us, how in the world do you expect us to handle it? Facebook is blocked on all school computers in my entire district, whether it be staff or students. This means that kids are accessing it on cell phones, so if we don't see that, we can't do anything about it. Cell phones aren't allowed in classrooms either. Believe me, us blocking Facebook on all school properties is one of the best things my board has done. We take it very seriously, and that is why we do not allow access in any way, shape or form for any board employee or student on Facebook.

We are doing our best at the school level with a very tricky situation...

Hopefully this clears it up, Tiger

 

[bumblebee]

I favor our society to stop coddlin' minors, stop callin' harassment bullyin' coz if this type of behavior is outside the confines of a school or playground, it's not bullyin', it's a crime called harassment 'n assault.

 

[SpoonfulsofSugar]

These suicides due to bullying are just devastating. Its sad that these young children think they have no other options but to end lives that they have not even come close to living yet. It's not just children and "growing pains". Thats totally an excuse. It's also adults and parents. The parents who defend their children who bully others (ie. the parents in the Pheobe Prince case) makes me sick. We live in very judgmental world. People are not very accepting those who are different from themselves whether it be race, culture or sexuality. We are surrounded by hate. People need to learn acceptance. I believe tolerance is taught in the home. Sadly,this bully/suicide mess is just going to continue.

 

[happygirl]

I have seen several people say oh well just stand up for yourself if you are bullied, it's not that easy for some people. Some people are terrified of standing up, In some case that only makes things worse, that in some case leads to them getting beat up.

 

[golfgal]

Nowhere did I say we didn't supsend or expell? Where in the world did you get that from?

When they leave our property, we can't control their cell phone usage, who they talk to, or their Facebook time. They are in control of parents, if they have parents at home. We don't have the manpower to monitor 24 hours a day, and it is highly unlikely that your district is doing that. We may monitor, once a situation comes to our attention, but most of it is turned over to the police. But if we don't know about it, we can't do anything about it. If the kids bring a Facebook situation to school, and attempt to continue it at school, as long as we know about it, we can act on it, if we don't, then we can't do anything about it, until it's brought to our attention.

Perhaps now you are seeing how difficult bullying is to deal with. If parents don't know about it, and the kids keep it secret from us, how in the world do you expect us to handle it? Facebook is blocked on all school computers in my entire district, whether it be staff or students. This means that kids are accessing it on cell phones, so if we don't see that, we can't do anything about it. Cell phones aren't allowed in classrooms either. Believe me, us blocking Facebook on all school properties is one of the best things my board has done. We take it very seriously, and that is why we do not allow access in any way, shape or form for any board employee or student on Facebook.

We are doing our best at the school level with a very tricky situation...

Hopefully this clears it up, Tiger

YOU said that once they leave your property there is nothing you can do....you are REALLY good at picking out a phrase and using it totally out of context . Our schools do take action for things that happen on Facebook, etc. outside of "school" time.

 

[Tiger926]

YOU said that once they leave your property there is nothing you can do....you are REALLY good at picking out a phrase and using it totally out of context . Our schools do take action for things that happen on Facebook, etc. outside of "school" time.

Nope, I'm the farthest from an out of context person you will ever meet. We don't have control over our students once they leave our property in terms of what they are allowed to do, and that is what I was discussing. We control Facebook in our schools, but we can't control it in their homes. Parents need to be in control of what kids are doing off of school property, but depending upon the issue (our lawyers and police have already briefed us on this stuff), we may be able to take action. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, we don't have any control over our kids once they leave our doors. Consequencing and such is a different issue, but it still doesn't control what and how the kids do things off school property.

If your district is monitoring thousands upon thousands of Facebook accounts on a daily basis, then they must have a trillion dollar budget. That's great, and you are very lucky to live there!

Thanks for the discussion, Tiger

 

[NotUrsula]

Perhaps now you are seeing how difficult bullying is to deal with. If parents don't know about it, and the kids keep it secret from us, how in the world do you expect us to handle it? Facebook is blocked on all school computers in my entire district, whether it be staff or students. This means that kids are accessing it on cell phones, so if we don't see that, we can't do anything about it. Cell phones aren't allowed in classrooms either. Believe me, us blocking Facebook on all school properties is one of the best things my board has done. We take it very seriously, and that is why we do not allow access in any way, shape or form for any board employee or student on Facebook.

Forgive me, but I think that the bolded is a bit disingenuous -- of course you can't see it if you refuse to ever look. That's the social networking equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "la-la-la-la-la." If that's your official policy, I've got to tell you that it just reeks of a strategy of plausible deniability.

Your school's administrative officers SHOULD have access to FB, and your school should have an organization page. Your administration needs to be active and visible in that milieu; otherwise the kids will believe that you are clueless. You don't have to manually monitor the kids pages, but you certainly should be running automated reports every single morning, searching for mentions of the school or of the names of kids that have reported harassment. As it is now they know that none of you ever looks, so the bullies know that they can say anything they darn well please. Kids are notoriously sloppy about maintaining proper privacy settings; if you seek you will eventually find.

Now, otherwise I agree with you; it *is* a really difficult battle, but I think that it is one that needs to be continually fought anyway, and visibly. It just might deter a perpetrator, but more importantly, it just might show some poor victim that you really do care what happens to him.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

When they leave our property, we can't control their cell phone usage, who they talk to, or their Facebook time.

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but the anti-bullying legislation enacted in MA last year (as the result of two bullying-related suicides) addressed the cyberbullying issue by taking the stance that cyberbullying affects a targeted student's right to an education and therefore is illegal - even if it does not occur on school property.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/2010/Chapter92

Bullying shall be prohibited: (i) on school grounds, property immediately adjacent to school grounds, at a school-sponsored or school-related activity, function or program whether on or off school grounds, at a school bus stop, on a school bus or other vehicle owned, leased or used by a school district or school, or through the use of technology or an electronic device owned, leased or used by a school district or school and (ii) at a location, activity, function or program that is not school-related, or through the use of technology or an electronic device that is not owned, leased or used by a school district or school, if the bullying creates a hostile environment at school for the victim, infringes on the rights of the victim at school or materially and substantially disrupts the education process or the orderly operation of a school. Nothing contained herein shall require schools to staff any non-school related activities, functions, or programs.

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

Nowhere did I say we didn't supsend or expell? Where in the world did you get that from?

When they leave our property, we can't control their cell phone usage, who they talk to, or their Facebook time. They are in control of parents, if they have parents at home. We don't have the manpower to monitor 24 hours a day, and it is highly unlikely that your district is doing that. We may monitor, once a situation comes to our attention, but most of it is turned over to the police. But if we don't know about it, we can't do anything about it. If the kids bring a Facebook situation to school, and attempt to continue it at school, as long as we know about it, we can act on it, if we don't, then we can't do anything about it, until it's brought to our attention.

Perhaps now you are seeing how difficult bullying is to deal with. If parents don't know about it, and the kids keep it secret from us, how in the world do you expect us to handle it? Facebook is blocked on all school computers in my entire district, whether it be staff or students. This means that kids are accessing it on cell phones, so if we don't see that, we can't do anything about it. Cell phones aren't allowed in classrooms either. Believe me, us blocking Facebook on all school properties is one of the best things my board has done. We take it very seriously, and that is why we do not allow access in any way, shape or form for any board employee or student on Facebook.

We are doing our best at the school level with a very tricky situation...

Hopefully this clears it up, Tiger

You could have kids pres print to have paper evidence of the harassment. Also Facebook can be blocked but kids have ways around it. Trust me I've seen it. it's called having your finger on the pulse of the generation. You ave to smarter and quicker and more importantly SAVY! You have so much more control than you think as a teacher.

 

[Andtototoo]

Perhaps now you are seeing how difficult bullying is to deal with. If parents don't know about it, and the kids keep it secret from us, how in the world do you expect us to handle it? Facebook is blocked on all school computers in my entire district, whether it be staff or students. This means that kids are accessing it on cell phones, so if we don't see that, we can't do anything about it. Cell phones aren't allowed in classrooms either. Believe me, us blocking Facebook on all school properties is one of the best things my board has done. We take it very seriously, and that is why we do not allow access in any way, shape or form for any board employee or student on Facebook.

If you honestly think you've completely blocked access, think again. I hate to agree with:

You could have kids pres print to have paper evidence of the harassment. Also Facebook can be blocked but kids have ways around it. Trust me I've seen it. it's called having your finger on the pulse of the generation. You ave to smarter and quicker and more importantly SAVY! You have so much more control than you think as a teacher.

At my dd's brand-new high school that opened last fall with the latest and greatest in cyber tech, Facebook and Twitter were blocked. Within 3 days, kids were texting each other the URL of a site you can use that hides that you are accessing FB. If you were to look up their history, the dummy site makes it look like you are accessing an entirely different (and acceptable) site. All of the kids were using FB within 4 days -- on SCHOOL computers.

 

[Tiger926]

Thanks for all replies:

1. I am Canadian - we don't have the same laws and statutes as you all do. We have the Safe Schools Act in my province, which particularly outlines cyberbullying as a suspendable offence (since 2007), and kids can be suspended or expelled for posting slanderous or disparaging images or posts/texts, as I already mentioned, once it is brought to our attention. The problem is that the ministry is still trying to determine what constitutes online bullying, so there is a bit of a gray area, and that is why we are directed to turn over to the police. Cyberbullying is handled as a civil or criminal crime in my province. There have been problems with our Safe Schools Act since its inception, so at least, they have incorporated cyberbullying into it, but we are still waiting for more to come. My province has had several issues the past few years with workplace and school safety.

2. This relates to number 1 - there are no funds to troll Facebook at my school board. Not sure how your districts are doing it, but we can't afford to do that. We have blocked it at the school level, and that is what we are doing at the moment. Like I said, it has to be brought to our attention, in order for us to even begin to handle the situation. This relates to number #1. But, if it's done on board/district computers, than it's a no brainer, as school policy has been broken, but the big problems are for off-site bullying. Most of us teachers would love to see computer tracking programs of some kind, as many of you are mentioning, as it will certainly help those students who are being cyberbullied, and perhaps with the case of the girls who committed suicide, it may help in extreme cases like that.

3. Our computers can tell when someone has bypassed the security filters, so kids are then supsended or expelled for attempting to bypass or hack into Facebook as we can match computer terminal ID codes, with time of day in each school. We also have programs that allow us to get screen shots, and gain remote access to computers in our classrooms, so I can see what Johnny is doing, and then I can shut off his computer, and take to the office for discipline or suspension/expulsion if hacking has been present. We also don't allow their laptops to be hooked up to board computers either.

4. Most school boards here in Ontario do not have social media policies in effect at this time. But for only the 3rd time in our College of Teacher's history, they have released a huge policy regarding teacher's not communicating with students by Facebook at all, period. If it's discovered that teachers are communicating with students via Facebook as per board policy, it becomes a human resources matter, as well, my teacher's union also has set out policy advising that teachers do not communicate with students via Facebook at all. It is not available on any board computers, period.

And on a related note, it has been proven that suspensions and even expulsions don't really work for many kids (my at-risk kids love to be suspended, as they go home and smoke up or drink all day ), and especially with cyberbullying, so our province is looking at what else can be done? That is why many boards, like mine, have taken the ability to access Facebook right off of each and every board computer, and that goes for all staff and students. At least we are controlling it from board computers. It will be interesting what the future holds in this respect...

There are so many areas to consider, many of which I have already outlined. My board and other boards in my district, follow protocol set out by lawyers and police, so at this time, I know that all community partners are getting together to figure out just how to best handle the whole social media area. It's hurtful to read that some of you assume that we don't care about the victims just because we are bound by certain legal policies regarding how we deal with off-school issues. We spend a ton of time on character education, anti-bullying messages, suspensions or expulsions for any type of bullying (cyberbulling on school property included), suspensions or other consequences for hate filled discussions, inspect washrooms several times per day for hate-filled messages, change student schedules around so kids won't associate with each other, and counselling, as some of the ways we deal with it on a daily basis.

It sounds like many of your boards have much more freedom in terms of what they are allowed to do in regards to tracking and trolling Facebook, but for us, we do not at this time. It doesn't mean we don't care about our students, nor do we turn a blind eye to it at all, but our hands are tied with just what we are allowed to do in the area of off-school cyberbullying, especially in relation to Facebook. The bottom line from our board's perspective, is that it is the parent's responsibility to monitor Facebook access, and not ours, when our students are not on our property.

Thanks for the discussion, Tiger

 

[katerina]

This is just sad to see that teens opted to go this route when bullying is involved. These bullies just seems to not have a conscience and compassion. It makes me wonder how they raised their kids. Disciplining them and raising them the right way is a big task but it is what parents must do to ensure their kids grow up right and responsible.

 

[PeterPan09]

I was a bullied kid back in the dark ages and I count myself blessed to have grown up before the internet. What did I do to deserve it? I was smart, I wouldn't let people cheat of my papers and I was gay. I was called a dyke by older kids before I had any idea what the word meant, told I was a mutant and should die, that I was going to hell and other less printable things. At least for me, it stopped after school and since not everyone's parents let them be on the phone, it was harder to gang up the way they can now.

What I see is kids mimicking the behavior of adults today. It's no longer enough to disagree-you have to hate that person who has values that differ from you. People think it's ok to call others names, and come up with creative insults and demean them if they dare to say something they disagree with. Why are we so shocked that our kids are doing the same thing?