Teen bullying leads to a double suicide

[bicker]

BUT blaming the victim is not the same as saying the victim has to be taught to be stronger, which is what many are saying.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that; the disagreement here is with regard to the perceptions of the bully and of the bullying, not perceptions of the bullied. What a bully does is absolutely wrong; it shouldn't be overlooked or accepted to any extent whatsoever; and society has an absolute obligation to remove bullies from the equation as much as it has an obligation to provide the foundation for the bullied to be strengthened.

 

[bicker]

As time has gone on, yes, we as a society have become increasingly more compassionate, and therefore deem acceptable only smaller and smaller transgressions of this sort. Many people hope for a future where love and compassion is not arbitrarily cut-off by a certain threshold.

Yes, but that will never happen because human nature isn't like that.

That's a horribly black-and-white distortion of what you were replying to. What you're implying is that because the world can never reach perfection, that we shouldn't even try to make it increasingly better. That's nonsense, and I'm surprised that anyone would even insinuate such a thing.

The reality is that as time has gone on we as a society have become increasingly more compassionate: Why are you trying to assert that we should cut that off at this point?

As for comparing bullying to slavery Two VERY different extremes.

I suppose you would have to say that because the reality - that what I said is true - that they differ only in that one is several orders of magnitude worse than the other - utterly undercuts what you're trying to say. Sad faces don't obviate a point made by someone else, that you don't like.

 

[castleview]

So you are saying that physical bullying is worse than emotional bullying? Please enlighten me, as perhaps I've misunderstood...?

They're both awful. But the physical bullying you described is a crime and should be treated as such.

I used the word *hore.

You'll probably get a warning for that, but we've all been there.



Tiger

In quotes.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Ouch. I've been fired by the bully drill sergeant!

I've been called worse.

 

[Tiger926]

Tiger, I honestly get where you are coming from all I'm saying is that you can either spend time trying to change the unchangeable or you can spend time empowering those who will benefit from it the most. I would rather help they bullied vs waste ANY energy on the bully. Eventually when they see their actions aren't impressing anyoneelses they will then have to deal with the insecurity that is causing them to be jerks. Or just be jerks for the rest of their lives. Lonely jerks, but jerks nonetheless.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that; the disagreement here is with regard to the perceptions of the bully and of the bullying, not perceptions of the bullied. What a bully does is absolutely wrong; it shouldn't be overlooked or accepted to any extent whatsoever; and society has an absolute obligation to remove bullies from the equation as much as it has an obligation to provide the foundation for the bullied to be strengthened.

Thank you, Bicker. This is what I have been trying to say. I empower my students and my children at home, but it is getting very hard to deal with bullying at the school level, especially since the advent of social media.

In many cases, the bullies are winning, and this is the problem...

Tiger

 

[Tiger926]

In quotes.

Oops. I thought it would block out most of the word. I didn't realize it would still show most of the word. I have edited it, but since you qouted it, I guess it's still there...

So sorry, Tiger

 

[AnOtHeRdIsNeYfReAk]

BUT blaming the victim is not the same as saying the victim has to be taught to be stronger, which is what many are saying. I'm not saying it is their fault these things are happening. All of the cases you mentioned above make me ask one thing, where are the adults?

Well, in some cases the adults don't believe their precious child would ever do anything like that. Its a problem I've been dealing with for years with my niece. After my sister passed away from Leukemia, DN was teased and bullied mercilessly. -Yes, because her mother died. And it wasn't just the "ha,ha I have a mother and you don't" teasing, though there was plenty of that apparently. Every day she was taunted and told her mother killed herself because she hated DN or equally horrible things.

This had been going on for two years, but DN never mentioned it to me or her grief counselor. But, by the time I found out what was happening the damage had already been done. And I only found out because those kids escalated things to physical violence when my niece started ignoring them. And yes, DN was blamed for defending herself when one of the girls thought it was funny to pull her by her hoodie and run, effectively choking DN. DN was suspended for pushing the girl off her. Even now, a few years later, she still suffers from the effects of those cruel kids.

I contacted the parents of the kids that were the main culprits and none of the parents would believe it had been happening. I talked to the school and got absolutely nowhere. I finally had to put her in a Catholic school, because the only other option was homeschooling, but she'd love to be able to hide in the house and not be around people now.

There's no way to teach a child to "be stronger" when every day kids are tormenting them. The bullying of today is nothing like it was even 15 years ago when I was in school. I just don't understand how we are creating such horrible kids that seem to be almost sociopathic. They have no care or concern for others, no moral responsibility, ect..

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

That's a horribly black-and-white distortion of what you were replying to. What you're implying is that because the world can never reach perfection, that we shouldn't even try to make it increasingly better. That's nonsense, and I'm surprised that anyone would even insinuate such a thing.

The reality is that as time has gone on we as a society have become increasingly more compassionate: Why are you trying to assert that we should cut that off at this point?

I suppose you would have to say that because the reality - that what I said is true - that they differ only in that one is several orders of magnitude worse than the other - utterly undercuts what you're trying to say. Sad faces don't obviate a point made by someone else, that you don't like.

Actually you are making things black and white. I'm saying things are never going to be perfect but instead of focusing on trying to change the unchangeable fix and improve what is worth changing. We will never have a Utopian society. Go ahead and try to make it better I just don't believe that EVERYONE is going to perform and agree with your idea.

 

[LuvOrlando]

What a heartbreaking story, and lots of other ones too... So sad.

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that; the disagreement here is with regard to the perceptions of the bully and of the bullying, not perceptions of the bullied. What a bully does is absolutely wrong; it shouldn't be overlooked or accepted to any extent whatsoever; and society has an absolute obligation to remove bullies from the equation as much as it has an obligation to provide the foundation for the bullied to be strengthened.

No one disagreed with that either. I think are reading things WAY to black an white just because someone is saying empower the victim doesn't mean they are saying the bully should not be punished for his actions.

Like I said there are a ton of bully reports on the news but I want them to interview the bully. Put them on the spot. Ask them how they feel knowing they are part of the reason someone killed themselves.

 

[McKelly]

My DD12 is currently involved in a bullying situation right now. It started five weeks ago and I tried to coach her through with ways to "ignore", "fight back", "find new friends", etc. It wasn't working so I stepped in. Made a phone call to the school, parents, etc. NOBODY knew what was going on.

Currently (as of this weekend), the bully is trying to form a "pack" of girls to side with her on Facebook because all heck is breaking loose and the bully is starting to panic because she thinks she is going to lose her friends. Turns out she has been bullying a lot of girls, but no one has said anything to this bully because she has been threatening physical violence against these girls, including my daughter. I don't know all the details because my DD12 is not allowed on Facebook and I don't have a FB account either, but a friend of mine called to let me know this was going on, because her DD told her and to warn me what was going on and what my DD might be faced with on Monday. YOU BET I am going in to school Monday AM. My DD12 has tried to "let this roll off her back". WHY should she have to? This girl is just mean and she should be reprimanded and I don't believe in this "get together and apologize" crap either. IF someone treats you bad, you shouldn't have to be "friendly" with them. NO WAY. Yes, we have to be civil and coexist in society, but I am not going to tell my daughter that she should have to put up with people like this. Would you?

It's clear that in my DD12's particular situation that teaching the child to not be a victim worked...it didn't. She needed me to help her and I am glad she came to me. Kids are not mature enough to handle this all of the time. I think as a society we want our kids to grow up too fast. Don't assume they can handle or should handle tough situations.

 

[Goofyluver]

My DD12 is currently involved in a bullying situation right now. It started five weeks ago and I tried to coach her through with ways to "ignore", "fight back", "find new friends", etc. It wasn't working so I stepped in. Made a phone call to the school, parents, etc. NOBODY knew what was going on.

Currently (as of this weekend), the bully is trying to form a "pack" of girls to side with her on Facebook because all heck is breaking loose and the bully is starting to panic because she thinks she is going to lose her friends. Turns out she has been bullying a lot of girls, but no one has said anything to this bully because she has been threatening physical violence against these girls, including my daughter. I don't know all the details because my DD12 is not allowed on Facebook and I don't have a FB account either, but a friend of mine called to let me know this was going on, because her DD told her and to warn me what was going on and what my DD might be faced with on Monday. YOU BET I am going in to school Monday AM. My DD12 has tried to "let this roll off her back". WHY should she have to? This girl is just mean and she should be reprimanded and I don't believe in this "get together and apologize" crap either. IF someone treats you bad, you shouldn't have to be "friendly" with them. NO WAY. Yes, we have to be civil and coexist in society, but I am not going to tell my daughter that she should have to put up with people like this. Would you?

It's clear that in my DD12's particular situation that teaching the child to not be a victim worked...it didn't. She needed me to help her and I am glad she came to me. Kids are not mature enough to handle this all of the time. I think as a society we want our kids to grow up too fast. Don't assume they can handle or should handle tough situations.

Good for you, mama!

 

[bumblebee]

Some children today lack the ability to be kind. They take every opportunity to bully (for a variety of reasons) and they systematically target, harass and bully others (or maybe just one individual) to the point that the individual/s are left feeling beaten down, attacked, insecure and unsure.

The consequences of these feelings and bullying in general can never be explained away by saying, "Kids just need to let stuff roll off of their back". Every single instance of bullying needs to be and should be explained by resting blame solely on the shoulders of the bully. You cannot place blame on those being victimized.

Well said! I completely agree.

 

[Tiger926]

Well, in some cases the adults don't believe their precious child would ever do anything like that. Its a problem I've been dealing with for years with my niece. After my sister passed away from Leukemia, DN was teased and bullied mercilessly. -Yes, because her mother died. And it wasn't just the "ha,ha I have a mother and you don't" teasing, though there was plenty of that apparently. Every day she was taunted and told her mother killed herself because she hated DN or equally horrible things.

This had been going on for two years, but DN never mentioned it to me or her grief counselor. But, by the time I found out what was happening the damage had already been done. And I only found out because those kids escalated things to physical violence when my niece started ignoring them. And yes, DN was blamed for defending herself when one of the girls thought it was funny to pull her by her hoodie and run, effectively choking DN. DN was suspended for pushing the girl off her. Even now, a few years later, she still suffers from the effects of those cruel kids.

I contacted the parents of the kids that were the main culprits and none of the parents would believe it had been happening. I talked to the school and got absolutely nowhere. I finally had to put her in a Catholic school, because the only other option was homeschooling, but she'd love to be able to hide in the house and not be around people now.

There's no way to teach a child to "be stronger" when every day kids are tormenting them. The bullying of today is nothing like it was even 15 years ago when I was in school. I just don't understand how we are creating such horrible kids that seem to be almost sociopathic. They have no care or concern for others, no moral responsibility, ect..

I am so sorry this happened to your niece. I will agree that there are large groups of kids who lack moral responsibility and exhibit very sociopathic characteristics. I see this with adults too...so much narcissistic behaviour and unaltruistic behaviour on a daily basis. It's a big problem with society in general, as far as I'm concerned. It's the perfect environment to foster bullying...

No one disagreed with that either. I think are reading things WAY to black an white just because someone is saying empower the victim doesn't mean they are saying the bully should not be punished for his actions.

Like I said there are a ton of bully reports on the news but I want them to interview the bully. Put them on the spot. Ask them how they feel knowing they are part of the reason someone killed themselves.

Been there, done that. Bullies really don't care about others, which is why they bully. They do not seem to exhibit altruism, empathy or compassion. That is why they hurt others. It's about gaining control and power over others, and how the victims feel really isn't an issue for bullies.

My DD12 is currently involved in a bullying situation right now. It started five weeks ago and I tried to coach her through with ways to "ignore", "fight back", "find new friends", etc. It wasn't working so I stepped in. Made a phone call to the school, parents, etc. NOBODY knew what was going on.

Currently (as of this weekend), the bully is trying to form a "pack" of girls to side with her on Facebook because all heck is breaking loose and the bully is starting to panic because she thinks she is going to lose her friends. Turns out she has been bullying a lot of girls, but no one has said anything to this bully because she has been threatening physical violence against these girls, including my daughter. I don't know all the details because my DD12 is not allowed on Facebook and I don't have a FB account either, but a friend of mine called to let me know this was going on, because her DD told her and to warn me what was going on and what my DD might be faced with on Monday. YOU BET I am going in to school Monday AM. My DD12 has tried to "let this roll off her back". WHY should she have to? This girl is just mean and she should be reprimanded and I don't believe in this "get together and apologize" crap either. IF someone treats you bad, you shouldn't have to be "friendly" with them. NO WAY. Yes, we have to be civil and coexist in society, but I am not going to tell my daughter that she should have to put up with people like this. Would you?

It's clear that in my DD12's particular situation that teaching the child to not be a victim worked...it didn't. She needed me to help her and I am glad she came to me. Kids are not mature enough to handle this all of the time. I think as a society we want our kids to grow up too fast. Don't assume they can handle or should handle tough situations.

Good for you! Keep up on the school. Even with Facebook posts that originate at home, we sometimes at the school level, can use this in dealing with bullies. And, if it comes to needing police involvement, they can use the Facebook posts as proof of bullying behaviour.

I hope the bullies are stopped now, and that your DD is able to heal from this experience.

Tiger

 

[golfgal]

I guess you haven't read any of my posts. I am a teacher - I live at school!

I don't agree with much of what you say, so we'll have to agree to disagree...You clearly don't have any understanding of just how serious bullying is these days...Telling kids to go and fight their own battles (pardon the pun) is not an acceptable answer when Sally is being called a ***** all day long at school, or Johnny is being pushed into the toilet.

Tiger

I fully understand the bullying situation-and it has NOT really changed all that much (as far as frequency) since we were in school. People are just more AWARE of the situation and the ramifications. What IS different is how kids react. What exactly did Sally do to STOP the bully. This is NOT blaming the victim, it is standing up to a situation-VERY, VERY different. No, no one deserves to be called names all day long, but what exactly did Sally do to STOP the problem? Also, what if Sally IS the problem and Janie did NOT call her names and Sally is just trying to get Janie in trouble and SALLY is really the bully. See the problem yet?

Women should just ignore that sexual harassment at work 'n if raped, well, Darlin', just let it run off your back.

Or, they need to be strong enough to report the problems, testify in court against their boss that this was happening. They need to also NOT put themselves into situations where these things can happen. It is called empowering yourself-not blaming the victim. The law IS on their side in these situations--but also keep in mind that there have been plenty of false accusations going on where the so called "victim" is really the instigator--the Duke case is a prime example. These boys were falsely accused and now their lives are ruined.

Tiger, I honestly get where you are coming from all I'm saying is that you can either spend time trying to change the unchangeable or you can spend time empowering those who will benefit from it the most. I would rather help they bullied vs waste ANY energy on the bully. Eventually when they see their actions aren't impressing anyoneelses they will then have to deal with the insecurity that is causing them to be jerks. Or just be jerks for the rest of their lives. Lonely jerks, but jerks nonetheless.

Thank you, Bicker. This is what I have been trying to say. I empower my students and my children at home, but it is getting very hard to deal with bullying at the school level, especially since the advent of social media.

In many cases, the bullies are winning, and this is the problem...

Tiger

So stop giving the bullies a target. What exactly do you propose to do about the situation. You seem to have all kinds of excuses and attacks for other people trying to point out that the answer to this is to stop giving bullies a target, period. If you DO ignore a bully, they WILL stop because it no longer becomes advantageous to bully someone that just doesn't care or someone that "fights" back either verbally or even sometimes physically. Again, no one is saying that being bullied is fun or anyone should have to put up with it but the fact of the matter is that bullying is NEVER going to stop so you need to teach your kids how to deal with them and step one often is to tell the bully off. If a child can't do that, they need to learn how.

 

[Tiger926]

I fully understand the bullying situation-and it has NOT really changed all that much (as far as frequency) since we were in school. People are just more AWARE of the situation and the ramifications. What IS different is how kids react. What exactly did Sally do to STOP the bully. This is NOT blaming the victim, it is standing up to a situation-VERY, VERY different. No, no one deserves to be called names all day long, but what exactly did Sally do to STOP the problem? Also, what if Sally IS the problem and Janie did NOT call her names and Sally is just trying to get Janie in trouble and SALLY is really the bully. See the problem yet?

Or, they need to be strong enough to report the problems, testify in court against their boss that this was happening. They need to also NOT put themselves into situations where these things can happen. It is called empowering yourself-not blaming the victim. The law IS on their side in these situations--but also keep in mind that there have been plenty of false accusations going on where the so called "victim" is really the instigator--the Duke case is a prime example. These boys were falsely accused and now their lives are ruined.



So stop giving the bullies a target. What exactly do you propose to do about the situation. You seem to have all kinds of excuses and attacks for other people trying to point out that the answer to this is to stop giving bullies a target, period. If you DO ignore a bully, they WILL stop because it no longer becomes advantageous to bully someone that just doesn't care or someone that "fights" back either verbally or even sometimes physically. Again, no one is saying that being bullied is fun or anyone should have to put up with it but the fact of the matter is that bullying is NEVER going to stop so you need to teach your kids how to deal with them and step one often is to tell the bully off. If a child can't do that, they need to learn how.

Sarcasm is not necessary.

Since I teach at-risk kids, my knowledge and experience with bullying is very numerous. Contrary to popular belief, not all bullies stop when they are ignored. Again, this is a very simplistic understanding of the situation, and rather insulting to those children who have done this. I have seen it in action, and it does not work all of the time. But, if that's what you think, there is certainly nothing that I say that is going to change that.

We will have to agree to disagree...

Tiger

 

[golfgal]

Sarcasm is not necessary.

Since I teach at-risk kids, my knowledge and experience with bullying is very numerous. Contrary to popular belief, not all bullies stop when they are ignored. Again, this is a very simplistic understanding of the situation, and rather insulting to those children who have done this. I have seen it in action, and it does not work all of the time. But, if that's what you think, there is certainly nothing that I say that is going to change that.

We will have to agree to disagree...

Tiger

No sarcasm intended-just pointing out the issue. I NEVER said it will stop, I said the FIRST STEP. Again, you certainly are shooting down everyone here but offering NO SOLUTIONS. What do YOU propose to do to stop bullies???

 

[Tiger926]

No sarcasm intended-just pointing out the issue. I NEVER said it will stop, I said the FIRST STEP. Again, you certainly are shooting down everyone here but offering NO SOLUTIONS. What do YOU propose to do to stop bullies???

Not shooting everyone down at all, just those of you who seem to imply that victims have a bigger hand in stopping bullies, or that there is a one size fits all solution.

I have been trying for years to come up with solutions, and as I admitted, the advent of social media has made it almost impossible to deal with bullying as it goes on 24 hours a day.

We don't look for one size fit all solutions at my school. We are a specialized program that deals with each case on an individualized basis; therfore, what works for 1 bully, does not work for another. So, I can't give you any perfect solutions - I didn't say I had all of the solutions either. What we do most is promote a very positive atmosphere in acceptance and inclusion of all. We can do that as we cap our program at less than 200 students. Schools with thousand of kids, cannot possibly do this.

My posting is to remind people that bullying is a major problem at schools. It is very hard for schools to deal with, and frankly, some schools suck at assisting and protecting the victims, and they suck even more in dealing with the bullies. Why is that? Because bullying is such a complex act. It really isn't as easy as ignoring or fighting back. In many cases, that just doesn't work.

My school board has a huge anti-bullying initiative right now. We are doing our best, but many of us feel like we aren't getting anywhere. We need help from parents and other community partners, and that just doesn't happen in so many cases. We are looking for the causes of bullying, why has it increased so much, and how best to deal with bullies and their victims? It's a very difficult road...

There are ways to track bullying behaviour, there is victim empowerment, serious consequences, taking bullying behaviour seriously, character education, tolerance teaching, limiting or eliminating social media access, as some of the ways to deal with it.

It is a hard and difficult road...and one in which we at the school level feel the most frustrated in dealing with.

Tiger

 

[golfgal]

Not shooting everyone down at all, just those of you who seem to imply that the victims are at fault, or that there is a one size fits all solution.

I have been trying for years to come up with solutions, and as I admitted, the advent of social media has made it almost impossible to deal with bullying as it goes on 24 hours a day.

We don't look for one size fit all solutions at my school. We are a specialized program that deals with each case on an individualized basis; therfore, what works for 1 bully, does not work for another. So, I can't give you any perfect solutions - I didn't say I had all of the solutions either.

My posting is to remind people that bullying is a major problem at schools. It is very hard for schools to deal with, and frankly, some schools suck at assisting and protecting the victims, and they suck even more in dealing with the bullies. Why is that? Because bullying is such a complex act. It really isn't as easy as ignoring or fighting back. In many cases, that just doesn't work.

My school board has a huge anti-bullying initiative right now. We are doing our best, but many of us feel like we aren't getting anywhere. We need help from parents and other community partners, and that just doesn't happen in so many cases.

There are ways to track bullying behaviour, there is victim empowerment, serious consequences, taking bullying behaviour seriously, character education, tolerance teaching, as some of the ways to deal with it.

It is a hard and difficult road...and one in which we at the school level feel the most frustrated in dealing with.

Tiger

So,

I have not seen one person on this board say that the victim is at fault, I have seen a lot of people come up with suggestions to HELP the victim not be a victim--there is a HUGE difference that you just can't seem to grasp. There will always be bullies-period. You will NEVER change that. You CAN change how a victim reacts to that bully.... IF they seek help.

 

[Tiger926]

I have not seen one person on this board say that the victim is at fault, I have seen a lot of people come up with suggestions to HELP the victim not be a victim--there is a HUGE difference that you just can't seem to grasp. There will always be bullies-period. You will NEVER change that. You CAN change how a victim reacts to that bully.... IF they seek help.

I just fixed up my statement - didn't write it out correctly the first time. My problem is that many of you, and much of society put the onus on the victim as having more responsibility to stop the bullies. Some bullies can't be stopped, and they are allowed to bully thanks to non-action on the part of the schools or parents. Silence is consent, so couple that with little or no consequences, and bullies have a perfect avenue to bully.

I absolutely value empowering victims, but it's really not that easy. I have students who are highly anxious or depressed, so no amount of empowering to them is going to stop the bully. So, should we not get involved? It's also about figuring out what type of consequence is best for bullies, as some of them, don't even respond to consequences. Each case is different...

There is confusion on this thread, and the others, about what constitutes bullying, and this is also part of the problem. Some people feel that gossip is not a big deal, some people tell their kids to get a tougher skin, some kids are ignored, and others still are made to believe as victims that somehow they are at fault for the bullying. Kids need to have trusted adults around them that they can seek help from, especially in bullying situations. If kids feel that they are all alone, this is where depression and suicide comes into play.

Remember, if you have been repeatedly bullied, your self esteem and ability to empower yourself is basically non-existent. Bullies break down peoples' spirits in both physical and emotional ways, and so I'd rather kids confide in adults, and we leave it to us to discern what the next course of action is. This is especially vital with my teenaged students and cyberbullying as most of them don't think it's a big deal to totally humiliate or embarass their peers. I have seen some seriously horrible and disgusting cyber bullying...and if a co-worker or your neighbor had said those things, they would be charged with harassment or stalking. Yet, some parents think no big deal, and so do some schools. This is a big part of the problem...

Please re-read my edit.

Tiger