So what should happens to cadets in uniform

[Mrs. Ciz]

Your pictures just made one of the points I was trying to make! The athletes in these sports pics are clearly playing the circle game. This is where the kids are getting it from!

 

[pahoben]

I was just getting ready to post this very link! The 4chan hoax (that the ok sign is a white power sign) was started sometime in 2017. It was only in September 2019 that the Anti Defamation League added the OK sign to their list of hate symbols because in recent months white supremacists have actually started using it. The ADL posts a picture on their website of the OK symbol with the fingers up in a W and with the finger circle and wrist forming the P - thus the White Power symbol. The hate symbol is not the upside down OK. See here: https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

If you look at memes of the circle game, all the fingers are either pointing down in a M or to the side - not straight up in a W. On Pinterest there are tons of pictures of the circle game fingers (heck there are even t shirts). Kids send the pics to each other all the time as a "gotcha." The below the waist followed by a punch part of the game has morphed with the digital age into showing the upside down OK in pictures and videos (especially on the sly) as a digital "gotcha" - a lot like getting "rick rolled." There are memes/photos/videos of famous actors doing the circle game fingers during their interviews, sports stars doing the circle game fingers while doing their sports, etc. This is where the kids are getting it from.

Did any of you read about the the suburban high school in Chicago? In May 2019 they spent $80,000 to reprint all their yearbooks because so many of the kids across all races and genders played the circle game when they had their pictures taken. The school didn't want to hurt any feelings or have their students called out, so they forked out the money to reprint. From the article: “Let me be clear: it is fully believed that the intent of the students in the photographs was to be playful, as the Circle Game was actively being played around many campuses this academic year, including ours,” Devine wrote.

One of my coworkers taught at the Naval Academy for several years. I asked her what she thought of the whole thing. She said young men that age are idiots a lot of the time; their frontal cortex is not yet fully formed, and the academy is used to dealing with their foolishness. It will be investigated and dealt with, but if they kicked out everyone that did something dumb, they'd hardly have anyone left. She also said that midshipmen at Annapolis are very insulated from the world at large. They have very little free time or exposure to news outlets or social media because they are so incredibly busy; their time is very structured and not their own. So they may not be aware that a media storm has been brewing over the ok symbol for the last few months. Just her insider's view.

One last thing - an ADL spokesman says:
Speaking in general, Pitcavage said it’s important to not leap to conclusions when someone makes the OK sign.
“You cannot assume. That’s the whole problem,” he said. “You absolutely cannot assume what someone is doing when they make the OK sign unless there is contextual information. If the person making the sign is a known white supremacist, then one may assume. If the person making the sign has hate symbols on their clothes, or tattoos or jewelry, perhaps one can make an assumption. But in the absence of contextual evidence, you can’t assume.”

An investigation will uncover if the boys were A) just being doofuses, or if B) they are in fact racists, and the punishment will fit the crime.

Source for quoted material: https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-life-ok-sign-racist-05282019-story.html

My age and sex cohort at those ages would have certainly benefited from additional frontal cortex development and higher executive function adjustments.

 

[gwynne]

Your pictures just made one of the points I was trying to make! The athletes in these sports pics are clearly playing the circle game. This is where the kids are getting it from!

Pretty sure what cadets can and cannot do in uniform is likely different than what folks playing basketball choose to do.
And I am waiting for the results of the investigation into the cadets behavior to find out what their intent was.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Pretty sure what cadets can and cannot do in uniform is likely different than what folks playing basketball choose to do.

Never said the two were the same. If fact, I said if the cadets were playing the circle game, they were being doofuses, and their punishment would fit that crime. Someone upthread asked where they were getting this from. I was answering that question. This is where.

 

[sam_gordon]

Your pictures just made one of the points I was trying to make! The athletes in these sports pics are clearly playing the circle game. This is where the kids are getting it from!

Actually, they're not. They're celebrating a made 3-point basket. And no, I'm not saying that's what the cadets were doing. I'm just pointing out there are multiple "meanings" to an OK sign. The context that it is used matters.

If anyone would like to try to explain, I can understand why a "right side up" OK sign could be taken for "White Power" (three fingers pointing up are a W, the circle of the index and thumb added to the arm are a P), but how does holding the OK sign upside down (much less sideways) make that? Wouldn't the three fingers pointing down be an "M"?

And I agree w/PP who asked why we let *******s "take over" a symbol? Wouldn't that imply that it can be "taken back"?

 

[Hikergirl]

Here it shows the "OK" pointing up as white power.
Is the ADL wrong?

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

 

[kaytieeldr]

and several posters were 100% sure the sign was the WP sign versus the Circle game

Just because a group of people that sit around and look for grievances decided it signifies something else doesn't make it so.

According to ABC Nightly News, the Anti-Defamation League https://www.adl.org/news/everyone-has-a-role-in-fighting-white-supremacy-and-online-hate - the 100+ year old organization the entire purpse of which is to fight hate - says it is now developed into a hate sign.

 

[Hikergirl]

According to ABC Nightly News, the Anti-Defamation League https://www.adl.org/news/everyone-has-a-role-in-fighting-white-supremacy-and-online-hate - the 100+ year old organization the entire purpse of which is to fight hate - says it is now developed into a hate sign.

They also say this
Because of the traditional meaning of the “okay” hand gesture, as well as other usages unrelated to white supremacy, particular care must be taken not to jump to conclusions about the intent behind someone who has used the gesture.

 

[AlohaNow]

So I’m one of those who never heard of the Circle Game, nor did I know that white supremacy groups had recently usurped the OK symbol. I lived at West Point for years and came into contact with literally hundreds of cadets throughout my time there. Generally speaking, they are upstanding young people who are echelons above the standard maturity level for their peer group, and a joy to be around. That said, even with the strict and multi-step admissions procedures, bad apples do slip through the process.

I will say this of the individuals who were making the gesture during the ESPN College Game Day broadcast. These cadets were stupid enough to make a questionable gesture on live, national television. Obviously, the tape can be run back and the individuals easily identified. They will be brought before an Honor Board at the academy and asked what the heck they meant by displaying the symbol. How hard is it for them simply to say, whether true or not, that it was just the Circle Game?

I agree with previous posters that their social media should be looked into, as I’m sure is happening right now. But I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that about the only punishment that will be issued, if any, is ‘walking the area’ at West Point for doing something stupid and making the corps as a whole look bad. No one will be expelled (the proper USMA term is separated from the academy) and they will go on to graduate and be commissioned officers. If the cases do go outside of West Point and UCMJ articles are applied, I would be greatly surprised, and you can all tell me that I was wrong.

 

[okeydokey]

If they were playing the circle game, they would be punching each other. They know what they are doing.

 

[Squirlz]

Who is the commander and who is the chief?

And do they both love tacos?

 

[declansdad]

If they were playing the circle game, they would be punching each other. They know what they are doing.

Not everything in the circle game is about punching. Much of it evolved in to simply making the other person look, especially in places where you typically wouldn't want another guy to look.

 

[SaintsManiac]

Circle game sounds stupid. Using this gesture as a white supremacy symbol is even more stupid. Being disrespectful on a broadcast such as College Gameday is BEYOND stupid.

They have a lot of growing up to do. These are the kids that get sent on tours and then come back with PTSD, suicidal thoughts and/or become cops that abuse power.

 

[declansdad]

They have a lot of growing up to do. These are the kids that get sent on tours and then come back with PTSD, suicidal thoughts and/or become cops that abuse power.

That's quite the blanket statement.

 

[SaintsManiac]

That's quite the blanket statement.

Yep, sure is.

 

[okeydokey]

Circle game sounds stupid. Using this gesture as a white supremacy symbol is even more stupid. Being disrespectful on a broadcast such as College Gameday is BEYOND stupid.

They have a lot of growing up to do. These are the kids that get sent on tours and then come back with PTSD, suicidal thoughts and/or become cops that abuse power.

Hopefully, these particular cadets will never get sent anywhere because their military careers are over. I am hopeful that the US Military will do the right thing and expel these disgraces.

 

[pahoben]

A person that lives on hope will die fasting.
Benjamin Franklin

 

[gwynne]

Hopefully, these particular cadets will never get sent anywhere because their military careers are over. I am hopeful that the US Military will do the right thing and expel these disgraces.

It's not a plus to me that the individuals involved knew they were on camera. ESPN's college gameday was filming. Rece Davis was around.
The cadets had an easy choice on Saturday. They could either show respect for the uniform (and their academies) or not.
I trust the academies to do a thorough investigation and make decisions from there.

 

[Hikergirl]

The right thing to do is a thorough investigation and punish the cadets fairly based on that outcome.
I sure hope anyone that would feel that punishment should be based on nothing more than their own bias and feelings never serve on a jury. Ever.

 

[pahoben]

The right thing to do is a thorough investigation and punish the cadets fairly based on that outcome.
I sure hope anyone that would feel that punishment should be based on nothing more than their own bias and feelings never serve on a jury. Ever.

That was my point earlier. People with similar personalities were in the first row at Salem screaming-Burn Them. The rule of law is intended to eliminate the impact of this approach to adjudication but if the mob is loud and the respnsible parties weak then it could have an unfortunate impact in this case on justice. The fact that controversial displays haven't been pursued in the past sets a precedent that should have considerable impact on the disciplinary course but who knows if leadership is weak.