So what should happens to cadets in uniform

[NYCgrrl]

For goodness sakes-this is from Wikipedia-
File:OK Sign.jpg

• Langu

It was used commonly in the military for a century or more as “okay” and now used as the basis of a game. Just because a group of people that sit around and look for grievances decided it signifies something else doesn't make it so.

That is NOT the sign that was used. It was a pointer and thumb circle with the other fingers extended in a straight line outward.

 

[gwynne]

For goodness sakes-this is from Wikipedia-
File:OK Sign.jpg

• Langu

It was used commonly in the military for a century or more as “okay” and now used as the basis of a game. Just because a group of people that sit around and look for grievances decided it signifies something else doesn't make it so.

This sign is exactly (and only) what you observed when you watched the video?

 

[NYCgrrl]

This sign is exactly (and only) what you observed when you watched the video?

Perhaps the quoted poster didn't see the video . I tried to grab a screenshot of it but couldn't.
I noted that the sign was shown 3 times although it was impossible to tell if it was the same cadet with and without gloves on from the angle of the video. I did see a still shot from a different angle where you clearly see the face of at least one person.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

I get what you're saying. I'm sorry that your DD didn't know about the racist meaning of the sign and I'm glad that she stopped using it.

I would say that West Point and Annapolis, by their very nature, are not as insular as most small towns and small colleges. Students of all regions, genders, races and ethnicities attend our military academies. I would be shocked if someone hadn't told the cadet and the midshipmen who flashed the sign the multiple meanings of the circle game at some point in the last 3 months of college. In fact, the midshipman's hand was pushed down by the cadet next to him. In any case, I hold the young men and women studying to be the next generation of military leaders to a higher standard. They are among the best of the best and they will lead our military in the future.

If the college kids of today don't know what it means who should? They are internet and social media savvy like no previous generation in the history of humankind. These are not jr college students partying on the beaches of FL every spring break but our future armed force leaders who focus on their chosen profession earlier than most.

I do think they should be held to a standard at least as high as the average academically inclined colleges.

Assuming high school kids and college/academy students should already know what it means because they are social media savvy won't cut it. If we are going to ruin a high school, or college, or service academy kid's life over use of a symbol that up until the last 2 years was innocent and part of a widely spread young people's game, then we better make DARN sure that every one of those kids has been expressly told and educated that they are no longer allowed to use this symbol and why. Was this symbol discussed at the cadet orientation? Is it listed in the school handbook under symbols that will get you punished/expelled? Otherwise we are creating a Kafkaesque situation.

According to a spokesman from the Anti Defamation League, "the vast majority of Americans are using the ok sign in the traditional nonracist ways."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-life-ok-sign-racist-05282019-story.html
I've got to go. I have Christmas gifts to wrap.

 

[NYCgrrl]

Assuming high school kids and college/academy students should already know what it means because they are social media savvy won't cut it. If we are going to ruin a high school, or college, or service academy kid's life over use of a symbol that up until the last 2 years was innocent and part of a widely spread young people's game, then we better make DARN sure that every one of those kids has been expressly told and educated that they are no longer allowed to use this symbol and why. Was this symbol discussed at the cadet orientation? Is it listed in the school handbook under symbols that will get you punished/expelled? Otherwise we are creating a Kafkaesque situation.

According to a spokesman from the Anti Defamation League, "the vast majority of Americans are using the ok sign in the traditional nonracist ways."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-life-ok-sign-racist-05282019-story.html
I've got to go. I have Christmas gifts to wrap.

I'll just tell you what I told my children: "If you think it's wrong and get caught- it's on you and not the one who caught you acting up". The "ruination" would be on the perpetrator. And yes we should be sure that the punishment fits the crime. Nothing Kafkaesque about using common sense or knowing right from wrong.
Wrap well and enjoy!

 

[pahoben]

That is NOT the sign that was used. It was a pointer and thumb circle with the other fingers extended in a straight line outward.

And the smile was a smirk because the lips were not true to horizontal? I have used this my entire life for “Okayut now i need to make sure my fingers aren't too horizontal?

Let’s assume this cadet is virulently racist but has some semblance of reason to have a slot in an academy. You then propose that he did this reasonably knowing that only dire consequences could result. Otherwise you must propose that ala Charles Manson he hought flashing this sign would start a race war (Helter Skelter).

The basis of this is just some people resolutely searching for grievances wherever they may be found.

 

[NYCgrrl]

And the smile was a smirk because the lips were not true to horizontal? I have used this my entire life for “Okayut now i need to make sure my fingers aren't too horizontal?

Let’s assume this cadet is virulently racist but has some semblance of reason to have a slot in an academy. You then propose that he did this reasonably knowing that only dire consequences could result. Otherwise you must propose that ala Charles Manson he hought flashing this sign would start a race war (Helter Skelter).

The basis of this is just some people resolutely searching for grievances wherever they may be found.

Have you in fact seen the video? I ask because you seem to be under the misconception that a normal OK signal was used. Not sure what you mean by the facial gesture used by at least one as I hold no credence to it being more than a "Look, Ma, I'm on TV!" expression.
Assuming a "cadet is virulently racist but has some semblance of reason to have a slot in an academy" are grounds for being expelled according to longstanding and currently enforced Dept. of Defense and Army regulations. You can't agree to uphold the portions of the Constitution you prefer and serve in the armed forces. It's an all or nothing oath and set of rules.
I would imagine the same holds true for all the elite military colleges paid for by all taxpayers' dollars.
Not understanding how Helter Skelter a la CM enters the discussion.

 

[monsterkitty]

The cadets were smirking about it. On the video I watched, one cadet was making the sign over another's shoulder. The cadet purposely moved the three fingers so that it was noticed. Another cadet also made the sign when the first cadet put his hand down. A third cadet, without gloves, was also making the sign. All three cadets purposely spread their three fingers out to clearly show the w.

So for those saying "for goodness sake" or that it is the circle game or the okay sign, watch the video. It was none of those things. It was above the waist, the circle game is done below the waist. My middle school kids have known what it has now become for the past 2 years. Stop covering for those who are using this as an anti- Semitic sign. Start recognizing things that are being used to discriminate against others for what they are - racist tools used to try and show power.

 

[pahoben]

If Disboards fanatics are going to decide this at a lower level then i trust there will be a reasonable pardon at a higher level.

 

[wgeo]

So here's my confusion about the circle game, maybe someone can help me understand. As my kids explain it -the point was to end up "hitting" the person that you got to look at your sign. Maybe it's different in different areas, but if that's the point than there is no way that someone would "play" the circle game on tv because there is no "end" result to the game. Perhaps I'm just not understanding the "game".

 

[monsterkitty]

If Disboards fanatics are going to decide this at a lower level then i trust there will be a reasonable pardon at a higher level.

So I'm a Disboard fanatic because I'm speaking out against racism and anti-Semitism? Let me repeat this for you:

This wasn't the circle game.

The sign was made above the waist of the cadet in front of him.

The cadet "playing the circle game" saw the cadet look at the sign and laugh.

Cadet making the sign did not punch the glancing cadet in the arm.

Another cadet began making the sign.

He did not punch anyone in the arm either.

It was not the circle game and there was no reason for them to be making the "okay" sign.

Stop making excuses for these clowns who think it's just fine to make the white power sign, whether it's because they are racist, trying to get attention, or just idiots. They knew what they were doing for whatever reason and they should not be represnting our county in uniform if they can't represent all.

 

[monsterkitty]

So here's my confusion about the circle game, maybe someone can help me understand. As my kids explain it -the point was to end up "hitting" the person that you got to look at your sign. Maybe it's different in different areas, but if that's the point than there is no way that someone would "play" the circle game on tv because there is no "end" result to the game. Perhaps I'm just not understanding the "game".

You are understanding the game. Every teacher should understand this game. Every teacher should understand and know that these cadets were not playing a middle school game. Including those on this thread who are seeing no problems with what these cadets are doing.

 

[HopperFan]

I watched the video ... the wide screen version (some shot vertically which misses half the issue) and the full length video.

These men knew that the man speaking would be on television, they knew they were on television, and they knew that any actions by them would be on television.

Two men to the right of the speaker (viewer's right) made the gesture clearly pointing their hands at an African-American cadet in front of them. One must have realized his gloved hand would be lost in the view, so they removed their glove and repeated the gesture even more clearly at his fellow cadet. At that time the cadet behind held up and chugged a coke (on tv) and then raised his hand crushing the can in the air in view then threw it with force down beside the cadet they were pointing at.

To the left of the speaker two cadets made the sign, one in gloves and one not both pointing their hands directly at the African-American cadet standing in front of them. There was laughter among other cadets who watched but didn't make the sign nor did they do anything to stop the sign.

There is nothing confusing about what was shown clearly on television. There is no child's game here. This was adult men showing the utmost disrespect for their academy, for their fellow cadets and honestly for the nation that they are supposedly representing. They should all be immediately dismissed and sent home.

 

[NYCgrrl]

If Disboards fanatics are going to decide this at a lower level then i trust there will be a reasonable pardon at a higher level.

Mis-use of power is evil by design no matter the level IMO but we all have to teach our children what we think is best. If you believe a college aged student on a leadership track can exhibit immoral behavior under the guise of being silly, I'm sure you'll find someone to agree with you. The idea smells of corrupt entitlement to me whilst formulating the idea that others have this problem which I guess is just another form of NIMBY and "cloud cover".

 

[robinb]

I watched the video ... the wide screen version (some shot vertically which misses half the issue) and the full length video.

These men knew that the man speaking would be on television, they knew they were on television, and they knew that any actions by them would be on television.

Two men to the right of the speaker (viewer's right) made the gesture clearly pointing their hands at an African-American cadet in front of them. One must have realized his gloved hand would be lost in the view, so they removed their glove and repeated the gesture even more clearly at his fellow cadet. At that time the cadet behind held up and chugged a coke (on tv) and then raised his hand crushing the can in the air in view then threw it with force down beside the cadet they were pointing at.

To the left of the speaker two cadets made the sign, one in gloves and one not both pointing their hands directly at the African-American cadet standing in front of them. There was laughter among other cadets who watched but didn't make the sign nor did they do anything to stop the sign.

There is nothing confusing about what was shown clearly on television. There is no child's game here. This was adult men showing the utmost disrespect for their academy, for their fellow cadets and honestly for the nation that they are supposedly representing. They should all be immediately dismissed and sent home.

Do you have a link to the wide screen version?

 

[HopperFan]

Do you have a link to the wide screen version?

Twitter User on their Replies has it ...
@YonderLooky

 

[luvsJack]

The reason they are doing an investigation is to NOT do exactly what most of you are doing. They are not assuming guilt. Innocent until proven guilty, ya know.

Whatever the investigation shows and whatever discipline is the policy for that infraction is the appropriate outcome.

 

[Hikergirl]

I think it should be investigated and if it is found that this was a deliberate racist gesture then whatever punishment is normally applied to those kinds of acts should be applied here as well.
If that is expulsion then so be it.

 

[starry_solo]

I have never seen an "OK" sign with the fingers pointed down unless it's racial in nature.



^^From Wikipedia^^ Note that the remaining three fingers are spread.

The racial gesture that is inappropriate appears to be this one:



Upside down with the remaining three fingers together, straight (not spread apart). Oh, and not below the waistline.

Circle game (picture again from Wikipedia).



Below the waist, upside down, three remaining fingers are slightly apart but not as far apart as the "OK" sign and not as close together as the other one.

Investigate it, but do we want future officers in our military that would think this, in any way, is appropriate?

 

[Hikergirl]

Investigate it, but do we want future officers in our military that would think this, in any way, is appropriate?

So does this "but" mean that you think if it is investigated future cadets would think doing it is appropriate?
Or does it just mean that you really don't think there should be an investigation at all?


I'm not one for knee-jerk reactions. I believe that future officers deserve a chance to explain themselves.
Afterall we are talking about men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line to defend us.
I think the least we can do is listen to their side and then make a decision on what should be done.