Security Concern

[Webmiester]

No one said a special needs adult should not be able to order alcohol. My point was that an individal who is of age to order a drink should not be in children's areas.

Not only that, I would go as far as to say that nobody over the age of 18 should be allowed in any club that is designated for kids under 18. Period.

I think allowing an 11 year old into OC because they have the mental capacity of a 7 year old (as long as the disability has NO potential for violence). I think its a great idea...when ALL parties involved are MINORS.

The minute you mix minors with adults you are just asking for trouble.
On that thought, I am actually going to write to DCL about ensuring that the rules are modified to include this.

 

[Lynne M]

As I don't have kids, I won't pretend to understand how difficult it can be to be a parent of a disabled child. You're all heroes, IMO. And I sure won't judge the father of the young man in this situation.

That's why I think that clearer policies on DCL's part would have made for a safer, more comfortable cruise for everyone involved in this situation. I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there was also some risk to the autistic 23-year-old.

He was lucky that the parents of the young girl he was fixated on were understanding enough to see that he wasn't capable of understanding or changing his behavior, and that they let security handle it. I can see that situation going another way. Some fathers would have thrown a punch (or worse) first and asked questions later, particularly if they were approached aggressively. If he'd been too persistent with an adult woman, the same could have happened, especially if he'd gotten argumentative with a protective husband or boyfriend.

Just another reason that Disney security's response was so inadequate. For the protection and comfort of everyone involved here, there needed to be a different response.

 

[Webmiester]

... Yet, a great reason to intervene on my part: remove him from situations where someone else might hurt him because he offended someone else.

I think I get what you are saying, but I want to be sure... We aren't talking about be physically defending my children because someone 'offended' them or me.
We are talking about a 15 year old girl being truly afraid of physical harm from a 23 year old man with a mental handicap (which would be worse than a 23 normal person as judgement and other things can/I] be clouded or hindered). We are talking about this 23 year old adult man repeatedly approaching this 15 year old female child to the point where she fears for her safety.
If he had just called her fat ro a b*ch, I'd tell her to ignore it. Sheesh. I'm not the village drunk who beats people up for personal enjoyment, lol.
But I'll be darned if I'll let anyone touch my girls.

(That's right boys, daddy's gonna meet you at the door with a shotgun!)

 

[kcashner]

The family of this young man can't have it both ways. Either he is a competent adult--able to be out and about without supervision and to order alcohol--or he is in a "special needs," handicapped," "mentally challenged," or some other category where he needs special allowances such as being in the teen group (Personally I think this was a wrong decision on DCL's part, but....) If he fits into that category of needing special allowances to be made, he also needs supervision. That may be constant supervision or it may be more relaxed depending on the individual's needs.

He cannot be allowed to be a danger to others, not can any other guest on the ship whether due to something particular to that individual, a disease process, excessive alcohol, anger issues, or just being a jerk.

 

[luv2sleep]

I think I get what you are saying, but I want to be sure... We aren't talking about be physically defending my children because someone 'offended' them or me.
We are talking about a 15 year old girl being truly afraid of physical harm from a 23 year old man with a mental handicap (which would be worse than a 23 normal person as judgement and other things can/I] be clouded or hindered). We are talking about this 23 year old adult man repeatedly approaching this 15 year old female child to the point where she fears for her safety.
If he had just called her fat ro a b*ch, I'd tell her to ignore it. Sheesh. I'm not the village drunk who beats people up for personal enjoyment, lol.
But I'll be darned if I'll let anyone touch my girls.

(That's right boys, daddy's gonna meet you at the door with a shotgun!)

Yes, we are on the same page. I put offended in there because it really doesn't take much for some people to be pushed over the edge. People unfortunately get assaulted for way less than what happened to the OP's 15 year old daughter so I would be on alert for any potentially provoking situation.

 

[Wadekind]

@Webmiester: I agree but I wonder how Disney would have reacted if OP could have videoed the issues and showed them to security along with a promise to post the videos online so others could judge how Disney was handling it. This was happening enough that I am sure some footage could have been captured and would help if violent action did become necessary.
OP: If this is the same Dennis that is on the autismonthesea facebook page then I would be very upset if this full grown man had any interaction with my 15yo daughter. Shame on Disney for allowing him into the teen club and shame on Disney security for allowing the harassment to continue.

 

[HowdyHeidi]

Not only that, I would go as far as to say that nobody over the age of 18 should be allowed in any club that is designated for kids under 18. Period.

I think allowing an 11 year old into OC because they have the mental capacity of a 7 year old (as long as the disability has NO potential for violence). I think its a great idea...when ALL parties involved are MINORS.

The minute you mix minors with adults you are just asking for trouble.
On that thought, I am actually going to write to DCL about ensuring that the rules are modified to include this.

Just wondering, in your mind, does this bit about potential for violence only apply the kids club or does this also apply to all the guests of the ship, and does it only apply to people with a disability or all people?

 

[Webmiester]

@Webmiester: I agree but I wonder how Disney would have reacted if OP could have videoed the issues and showed them to security along with a promise to post the videos online so others could judge how Disney was handling it. This was happening enough that I am sure some footage could have been captured and would help if violent action did become necessary.

I thought about that angle before submitting my original post. As I wasn't there, I can only go by what OP described. But since it is her thread, all of my responses are based in the fact that everything was as she wrote it.
When in panicky stressful situations like that, it is very difficult to think clearly enough to "pull out a camera". I'd also fear, not knowing this person from Adam, that her pulling out a camera would enrage him and make him do something worse than he may or may not have originally intended.

 

[kcashner]

Just wondering, in your mind, does this bit about potential for violence only apply the kids club or does this also apply to all the guests of the ship, and does it only apply to people with a disability or all people?

Potential for violence can't really be defined. In the issue of someone being allowed into a lower age group, a history of violence or lack of such a history can be important as the individual involved could easily be twice the size of the kids in the group! The CMs are good, but they can't be everywhere every minute.

DCL security has a track record of taking serious action when violence on the ship involves individuals who have not had a label officially applied to themselves (my label might be "jerk"). However, it appears that they were not willing to take such action due to this individual's "special situation."

 

[Webmiester]

Just wondering, in your mind, does this bit about potential for violence only apply the kids club or does this also apply to all the guests of the ship, and does it only apply to people with a disability or all people?

Glad you asked. I thought about clarifying my thoughts in my post but didn't want it to go on forever.

I do not work in the disabilities industry. However I have many close friends who do. Social workers, teachers at a school for developmentally challenged children, and on and on.
That being said, there are some mental handicaps that have what I'll term as 'outbursts' which are physical in nature. Lashing out, swinging arms and thrashing legs. I personally dispise the movie, but think of the brother in "Something about Mary". That is a very real, and somewhat common occurance in mentally disabled folks who live well into adulthood.
I also know that one of the common traits of some types of autism is to lash out physically when someone violates their personal 'wall' or touches them.

While neither of these examples are a "majority" of the cases... and most mentally handicapped folks live very awesome, pleasant and normal lives...
You have to appreciate that in this situation the 'victim' of the stalking/whatever has no idea what type or stage of autism this man has.

I know what you are trying to say and my response is this:
While everyone has the potential for violence (anywhere and everywhere), most of us have a filter, a checkpoint that says, "This is wrong".
This autistic man obviously does not. His actions and behavior clearly showed without a doubt that he does not have the ability to determine right from wrong and therefore poses a greater threat of violence to the passengers of the ship than the average 'joe'.

If you disagree, I can set up a poll here that asks how many people think that it is appropriate for a 23 year old man (I'll even ommit the word stalk) to repeatedly hit on and follow around a 15 year old girl?
Can I get a show of hands?

Let's keep in mind, we're talking about this specific situation as recounted by the OP with this specific person. Not all handicapped people on all cruises.
I believe all handicapped passengers should be treated as well as anyone else and their needs should be accomodated to the best of DCL's ability without reducing the quality of any other passenger's cruise experience.
(I'm thinking about the old post about the life-sized bear in that last part)

Let's not turn this into a general discussion about the treatment of handicapped folks. That type of thread will never end well.

 

[MamaG]

Thank you so much Grandma4ever!!

We got a good letter off to DCL but the only link we could find was the registration link. I don't know if my husband has been able to find a reply yet, but we didn't hear anything otherwise.

I might search for another link or email address. The certified letter suggestions was great. I hadn't thought of that.

As for contacting Autismontheseas...well the father of the man runs it. I would assume he gets the notice just as he got all the notices from Wonder security, but it's worth an honest try for sure.

Also BBB is good. I couldn't tell if it was non-profit or connected to the University where the father works so I hadn't thought of it.

I just got so freaked out when I saw the website and that they go on so many other cruise lines too. If this is policy everywhere, then it's a big problem and we can't avoid it by going on another cruise line.

My son really did love the Oceaneer's Lab. They refused to let him try Edge as he's 10 and you have to be 11, but it turned out that he had such a great time we had to practically drag him out of there to be with the family. And the family we ate with was so nice and lives just a few miles away!!!

They recommended doing the Disney World cruise combo...I wonder if I can find out if autismontheseas is not on that cruise. How would I find that out?

 

[HowdyHeidi]

Glad you asked. I thought about clarifying my thoughts in my post but didn't want it to go on forever.

I do not work in the disabilities industry. However I have many close friends who do. Social workers, teachers at a school for developmentally challenged children, and on and on.
That being said, there are some mental handicaps that have what I'll term as 'outbursts' which are physical in nature. Lashing out, swinging arms and thrashing legs. I personally dispise the movie, but think of the brother in "Something about Mary". That is a very real, and somewhat common occurance in mentally disabled folks who live well into adulthood.
I also know that one of the common traits of some types of autism is to lash out physically when someone violates their personal 'wall' or touches them.

While neither of these examples are a "majority" of the cases... and most mentally handicapped folks live very awesome, pleasant and normal lives...
You have to appreciate that in this situation the 'victim' of the stalking/whatever has no idea what type or stage of autism this man has.

I know what you are trying to say and my response is this:
While everyone has the potential for violence (anywhere and everywhere), most of us have a filter, a checkpoint that says, "This is wrong".
This autistic man obviously does not. His actions and behavior clearly showed without a doubt that he does not have the ability to determine right from wrong and therefore poses a greater threat of violence to the passengers of the ship than the average 'joe'.

If you disagree, I can set up a poll here that asks how many people think that it is appropriate for a 23 year old man (I'll even ommit the word stalk) to repeatedly hit on, follow around a 15 year old girl?
Can I get a show of hands?

Thank you for clarifying your answer. I feel like I mostly agree with you that it is nearly impossible to know who has a potential for violence and who does not. Therefore I don't see how Disney would be able implement that policy. MAYBE they would be able to based on history of violence, but then again how would they know? Potential for violence is certainly present in some with or without disability or illness.

Disney does have a policy that says if someone needs one on one attention, they cannot be dropped off at the kids clubs, so maybe that policy, if followed, is enough?

Of course it isn't appropriate for any 23 year old to "hit on" any 15 year old. I don't think anyone said it was. However, it has happened by those with and without disabilities and we as a society (and most appropriately family members or those in authority) will correct the behavior without violence. I've set myself up to be the devil's advocate in that I noted that I would really like to hear other side of the story because hearing only one side of the story, and people getting very angry at this person who was identified makes me nervous.

And I wouldn't want anyone to suggest that a person with a disability CANNOT learn appropriate responses. In the past we assumed DISABILITY and good people were locked away to be hidden from society, and now we know not to assume that someone will never be able to learn and be able to go on vacation another time without incident...

I do hope that the OP is able to have a future less eventful cruise!

Hopefully that is enough for me on this thread. Happy Cruising to all!

 

[Webmiester]

Thank you for clarifying your answer. I feel like I mostly agree with you that it is nearly impossible to know who has a potential for violence and who does not. Therefore I don't see how Disney would be able implement that policy.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant a policy about letting anyone 18 and over into the kids club, regardless of their mental capacity. I agree that it wouldn't be possible for DCL to determine a person's potential for violence.


I think this thread is now officially a dead horse. I see that OP posted a 'wrap it up' and it is MamaG's thread.

 

[Chicogirl]

They recommended doing the Disney World cruise combo...I wonder if I can find out if autismontheseas is not on that cruise. How would I find that out?[/QUOTE]

Just go to autism of the seas web page, they have there cruise dates there.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Thank you so much Grandma4ever!!

We got a good letter off to DCL but the only link we could find was the registration link. I don't know if my husband has been able to find a reply yet, but we didn't hear anything otherwise.

I might search for another link or email address. The certified letter suggestions was great. I hadn't thought of that.

As for contacting Autismontheseas...well the father of the man runs it. I would assume he gets the notice just as he got all the notices from Wonder security, but it's worth an honest try for sure.

Also BBB is good. I couldn't tell if it was non-profit or connected to the University where the father works so I hadn't thought of it.

I just got so freaked out when I saw the website and that they go on so many other cruise lines too. If this is policy everywhere, then it's a big problem and we can't avoid it by going on another cruise line.

My son really did love the Oceaneer's Lab. They refused to let him try Edge as he's 10 and you have to be 11, but it turned out that he had such a great time we had to practically drag him out of there to be with the family. And the family we ate with was so nice and lives just a few miles away!!!

They recommended doing the Disney World cruise combo...I wonder if I can find out if autismontheseas is not on that cruise. How would I find that out?

How about this one? karl.holz@disney.com

 

[kcashner]

Autism on the Seas is a travel agency. They advertise advice and bookings for families as well as group events.

You can go to their web site to see if they have a group booked for your dates, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of an individual family that they booked on a ship. You didn't have trouble with the group, you had trouble with an individual and his father. However, perhaps if the father hadn't been the head of the group it would have been possible to take the issues up another level to the group director.

Good luck. I concur with addressing your letter to Karl Holz (president of DCL). But I'd do it as a snail mail, not an e-mail.

 

[clten]

OP, I am very sorry that your first experience on DCL has to be marred with the experience you went through. Regardless of what this individuals actions/intentions were, it impeded your family from having the type of vacation you should have been able to have. I'm glad you were able to enjoy at least some of it. I can understand your hesitation about going on another cruise. You are at a disadvantage when something like this happens as it is a closed community and you don't really have anywhere else to go.

Looking at the Autism at Sea website, if the Dennis posted there is in fact the individual you had difficulty with, I can see why you are frustrated and I don't think you are going to get far by interacting with the group or sending follow-up information to them. (They include Dennis in both the Staff picture and as a participant in others. I don't know for sure, but seems Dennis is given special status even within their group.)

As others have said, I would follow up with Disney. I think they need to be made aware of the issue if this group does travel with them again so they can have established rules so this doesn't happen with another child in the future.

I hope you'll give cruising another chance as it does seems you enjoyed it. Not that the same thing would happen in the future, but I would double check this group's website for dates they may be traveling as a group (does seem they have a DCL cruise from NYC in June next year booked), and avoid it -- at least for you, your husband's and your daughter's peace of mind.

 

[TDC Nala]

Per the previous posts, the young man in question is the son of the owner/founder of the travel agency. They must bring Disney lots of business if DCL had to walk a tightrope regarding the OP's complaint, as it sounds like he should have been supervised and wasn't. DCL could ask his parents to supervise him, but what recourse is there if the parents refuse? He's a legal adult. Following the girl around the ship, hanging around her stateroom and banging on the door late at night does sound like activities that should be concerning.

 

[GoofTroop]

I'm truly sorry for what the OP's 15 year old daughter was going through or felt. I have a 14 year old daughter that went through a similar experience this past summer. She was a camp counselor at a special needs camp this summer. A 25 year old special needs man was doing pretty much the same as what you've described on here. I won't go into all the detail, but the situation was dealt with.

I'm the mom of not only my typical 14 year old girl, but also 3 boys all on the autism spectrum (ages 17, 11, and 6). This thread makes me sick to my stomach. We will be cruising for the first time in January, I'm now petrified as to how my boys will be judged before anyone even gets to know them.

Did the father of 'Dennis' handle the situation appropriately? I'd say no.....But I feel this thread could make it difficult for anyone traveling with special needs. I'm probably not getting my point across right at the moment because I don't even know how to put it into words. Dennis and his dad are giving all of us dealing with special needs a bad rap. This dad's 'handling' of the situation is more of an isolated incident and not the typical....

All I can say is that my biggest concern was what to do with my oldest son, he's very high functioning, very caring, and would give the shirt off his back. My worry is that he could be taken advantage of by a stranger. He's too trusting. Then for my younger 2 it's been the concern of having a veranda, and could they go "overboard".

I just fear this type of thread could cause a problem for any person traveling that has autism, or any other developmental disability. Even with what Dennis has done, his name should never have been used on here. We all know who he is now, and what he looks like. I don't know him, and have no affiliation with autism on the seas. We are traveling as an individual family. I cannot even imagine coming back from my cruise, logging onto the disboards and seeing a story about one of my boys (with their name,picture, link, etc) posted on here. I'd be mortified! And no, not for the reason Dennis is on here....I just mean, what if one of my boys are doing something out of the 'norm'?

I now wonder if I did the right thing by joining the meet thread on here? Maybe we should just go as ourselves and not part of the dis? I'm probably not making a lot of sense, this thread as me emotionally all over the place at the moment.

By the way, autism is not a mental illness.

 

[GoofTroop]

Per the previous posts, the young man in question is the son of the owner/founder of the travel agency. They must bring Disney lots of business if DCL had to walk a tightrope regarding the OP's complaint, as it sounds like he should have been supervised and wasn't. DCL could ask his parents to supervise him, but what recourse is there if the parents refuse? He's a legal adult. Following the girl around the ship, hanging around her stateroom and banging on the door late at night does sound like activities that should be concerning.

He may be a legal adult, but does he have guardianship of himself? Or do his parents have guardianship of him? If his parents have guardianship, then I'd say the father is the responsible one in this situation. To me, it's no different than being responsible for your minor child.