S/O: Divorce... how to cut down?

[bsmcneil]

I'm torn. I don't want people to stay in bad marriages, but at the same time, I do think it's better (especially if there are kids) for couples to stay together.

Kids do best in happy homes. Staying together is not always the solution.

 

[bsmcneil]

To start with, it's NOT more financially viable to live on WIC, SNAP, etc., as a single mom. What makes you think women choose divorce because they are going to "make more" if they and their kids have to live on government subsidies? You try it sometime, if you think it's so incentivizing. You're all about money, so try living without it. While you are at it, maybe you should give up the benefits that go along with "married, filing jointly" that I am pretty sure you take advantage of every spring. Maybe it's not divorce that is degrading society. Maybe it's the deadbeat ex-spouses who don't bother to pay their child support that create the economic situations that cause mothers to need government support. Do you really, honestly believe that a woman thinks, "Oh, hey, I'll divorce my husband and quit my job to take care of the kids because it's such a cushy lifestyle?"

Every post. You knock it out of the park.

 

[VandVsmama]

Does anyone else think the divorce rate is too high? According to this site, 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce and 60-67% of second marriages do so.

Can/should anything be done to make more "successful" marriages? If so, what? Or just "nope, keep things as they are"?

If you provide some kind of incentive (financial?) to be married, would people stay in bad marriages just because of the incentive?
Should there a waiting period (6 months? a year? longer?) between getting a marriage license and a wedding?

I'm torn. I don't want people to stay in bad marriages, but at the same time, I do think it's better (especially if there are kids) for couples to stay together.

Thoughts?

Oh, and this is a spin off to the Hannity thread where the bride's(?) three previous marriages were brought up.

Thinking out loud on your questions...

• I'm not in favor of additional financial incentives to encourage/pressure a couple to stay married.
• Nor do I think that a waiting period should be in place for the period between getting a marriage license & a wedding. That's not going to help anything.
• If a marriage has gone south and there's really no hope of things improving, the couple 100% should NOT stay together just for the kids' benefit. Many times, in those situations, the kids would truly be better off with their parents divorcing.
• I don't think there should be any mandatory 'couples counseling' or anything like that before a couple gets married.
• I DO think that it's a good idea for a couple to talk through a bunch of different topics before they get married, but I don't think that the government should stick its nose in any of that.
• AND even if you & your partner come to an agreement on all of the big important things before you marry, stuff happens and heck, there have been couples where they agreed beforehand to have kids and then after they get married, 1 of them changes their mind. Or like what happened to 1 of my DH's friends...he was married, had a child, they agreed before they got married that they'd be a 2-income household. 1 day, the wife just up and changed her mind, quit her job on the spot and without consulting with or discussing it w/her husband, announced that she was going to be a stay at home mom and go back to school to get a college degree. So he supported her through that, then she decided she wanted to get a graduate degree...and he supported her through all of that, and when it finally came time after all that time and money for her to actually start earning an income, she was like, "Nah. It's your job now to take care of me." They're better off being apart.

We know 2 couples who are in our age bracket (50s) where the couple are divorcing. Couple #1: Wife just up and moved out with no advance notice; left Husband & 17 yr old daughter. Wife attempted to go on a smear campaign, claiming that Husband was cheating (he wasn't cheating), then she tried to tell a bunch of other lies to everybody she knew. Everybody caught on quickly that she was full of it. Lots of manipulation attempts w/their daughter. Once the daughter turns 18 in a few months, daughter plans on never speaking to her mom again. Wife has now removed all pics of the daughter off of her social media & now acts as if she doesn't have a daughter. Makes me think that maybe the reason her adult son from her 1st marriage moved to the other side of the country for a reason. Oh...and this was a committed faith-based couple who attended their place of worship religiously every week.

Couple #2: Wife was 1 of my roommates in college. Couple #2 have 3 kids; youngest is freshman in college now. When they had kids, Husband & Wife agreed to be a 1-income family; Wife stayed home w/the kids, but she'd do occasional contract work doing computer programming to make extra $$ that they'd use for the kids' extracurricular activities, vacations, etc. As the kids grew older, Wife started weirdly living vicariously through the 2 older kids. Wife became really weird and insecure, would take it really personally when other parents (especially moms) would make decisions for their kids that were different than what Wife & Husband were doing w/their own 3 kids. Wife walked away from her entire family earlier this year, moved to Spain to teach English for a very meager income while living for cheap w/a married gay male high school friend (HS friend is in a same sex marriage; the HS friend is somebody she had an intense crush on in HS) & the HS friend's husband. Wife's eldest kid got married this month.

Or there's Couple #3 that we know:
Husband has been friends w/my DH since elementary school. Husband married Wife when Wife was 18 and Husband was 20. They had kids young; have 3 grown children. Husband & Wife for YEARS were super intense into their religion, Wife would passive-aggressively preach to us regularly about how we should be living our lives. DH & I remained polite w/Wife and put up with the nonsense out of respect for Husband. Wife was stay at home mom while their kids were growing up, but took 1 university class per semester for years; eventually finished her college degree about the same time their oldest graduated high school.

...Wife is 1 of those people who prides herself on her family having everything 'just so.' She sends one of those Christmas newsletters out every year. DH & his sister, earlier this year, went to visit the Husband in their mutual home town. Wife was present, but super rude to my DH & his sister.

DH said that it's plainly obvious that these days, the Husband & Wife don't really have a life together anymore...they're more like roommates and act like ships passing in the night. Husband goes out and does stuff with his friends. Wife goes out and does stuff with her friends, including regular visits to night clubs to go country line dancing. In this year's Christmas newsletter, it was full of a long laundry list of like a half dozen exotic vacations she's gone on this year w/o Husband...along with bragging about how Kid #1 is now a lawyer, Kid #2 is an engineer, and oh...Kid #3 is a bartender and working on an art portfolio. As DH put it, "They're sort of just married in name only now."

I chock up Couple #3 to:
1. they don't believe in divorce
2. they married way too young
3. it would be too much of a pain now to divorce
4. neither of them on their individual incomes would be able to afford a mortgage on their own in their high cost of living area

In some years, Couple #3's annual Christmas brag sheet would leave out Kid #3 (the bartender). DH said that the way H & W talked, they thought that Kid #3 was a total embarrassment. Kid #3 struggled w/drug and alcohol abuse a lot in middle school and high school. Meanwhile, Wife affords all of her expensive vacations by them renting out ALL of their spare bedrooms in their house to international grad students (they live in an area near a university). Wife works as a school teacher and spends literally all summer long overseas traveling, while the Husband stays at home and works.

I'd say that Couple #3 stayed together in order to co-parent. As as that H & W grew up with their kids, they also grew apart. Wife is also rude and not a very nice person, is super judgmental, very righteous.

People get divorced for a lot of different reasons. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a divorce if there is truly no way to reconcile your differences.

My #1 piece of advice to my daughters, though, has been to make sure you've got your own way to earn your OWN income, so if things in your marriage turn south, you have a way to support yourself and you won't be stuck in a toxic or abusive relationship.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Kids do best in happy homes. Staying together is not always the solution.

I agree. It's hard in the kids either way. I've had friends go through it, and they found it was more like trying to choose the "least bad" option than really being able to find a "good" one.

 

[RedAngie]

So 40 years ago. Is the Church still advising abuse victims to stay married?

Even before the 80s physical abuse was (supposedly) legitimate grounds for divorce or annulment in the Catholic Church. How each diocese or individual pastor interpreted the guidelines was a different matter.

 

[_19disnA]

I have no idea how anyone determines what the divorce rate 'should' be. Seems you have to start there before jumping to the conclusion it is too high (or too low).

 

[sam_gordon]

I have no idea how anyone determines what the divorce rate 'should' be. Seems you have to start there before jumping to the conclusion it is too high (or too low).

IMO, in an "ideal" world, the divorce rate would be 0%. And before people break out the pitchforks, I'm talking about an "ideal" world... one where there is no abuse, no "changing of minds", no "falling out of love", etc. Two people meet, fall in love, and live happily ever after.

Obviously that's not going to happen. But, again in my opinion, lowering the divorce rate is a worthy goal. No, making it tougher to become divorced is NOT a good way to lower the rate. What can be done (if anything) to produce more successful marriages?

 

[mom2rtk]

IMO, in an "ideal" world, the divorce rate would be 0%. And before people break out the pitchforks, I'm talking about an "ideal" world... one where there is no abuse, no "changing of minds", no "falling out of love", etc. Two people meet, fall in love, and live happily ever after.

Obviously that's not going to happen. But, again in my opinion, lowering the divorce rate is a worthy goal. No, making it tougher to become divorced is NOT a good way to lower the rate. What can be done (if anything) to produce more successful marriages?

By whom? Just who do you want getting involved in people's personal lives like this?

 

[TippyThomas]

IMO, in an "ideal" world, the divorce rate would be 0%. And before people break out the pitchforks, I'm talking about an "ideal" world... one where there is no abuse, no "changing of minds", no "falling out of love", etc. Two people meet, fall in love, and live happily ever after.

Obviously that's not going to happen. But, again in my opinion, lowering the divorce rate is a worthy goal. No, making it tougher to become divorced is NOT a good way to lower the rate. What can be done (if anything) to produce more successful marriages?

Hey, I don't have any idea how to improve the numbers, but I figured I'd stop in and pick apart your motives for even asking. How dare you!

 

[sam_gordon]

By whom? Just who do you want getting involved in people's persona lives like this?

I don't know. I don't have any good answers. That's why I asked if others had ideas. And the answer may be "there's nothing that can be done". Does that mean the question shouldn't be asked?

Is there any divorce rate that's TOO high? What if 99% of marriages ended in divorce? Is that ok with you?

 

[sam_gordon]

Hey, I don't have any idea how to improve the numbers, but I figured I'd stop in and pick apart your motives for even asking. How dare you!

Thanks Tippy! I knew I could count on you!

 

[kdonnel]

IMO, in an "ideal" world, the divorce rate would be 0%. And before people break out the pitchforks, I'm talking about an "ideal" world... one where there is no abuse, no "changing of minds", no "falling out of love", etc. Two people meet, fall in love, and live happily ever after.

Obviously that's not going to happen. But, again in my opinion, lowering the divorce rate is a worthy goal. No, making it tougher to become divorced is NOT a good way to lower the rate. What can be done (if anything) to produce more successful marriages?

The divorce rate is on a downward trajectory.

The best way to keep it going that way?

Continue the societal trend of not looking down upon unmarried women. The fewer woman/men who feel forced into marriage because of religion or societal rules, the fewer divorces.

Maybe a continuation of this trend helps as well. People should know more of what they want in a partner when they are older. They should be making a more educated decision prior to getting married that should improve the odds of the marriage lasting.

 

[Bad Pink Tink 2.0]

I don't know. I don't have any good answers. That's why I asked if others had ideas. And the answer may be "there's nothing that can be done". Does that mean the question shouldn't be asked?

Is there any divorce rate that's TOO high? What if 99% of marriages ended in divorce? Is that ok with you?

I would much rather see people get divorced than be forced by Church and State to stay in abusive or unhappy relationships, which is what happened in my country.

Some people are best friends but just should not be married to each other. I know a couple who got married, got the mortgage, had the kids because thats what was expected of them. But they separated and were amazing co parents and best friends. They had to wait many years to get legally divorced, as when they separated divorce was illegal in Ireland. It is not fair what happened to them, that they were forced into situations and spent many years in a marriage that didnt work.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

DH and I used to volunteer as couple-to-couple pre-marriage "counselors" at our church. We let the engaged couple know at the first meeting that it was not our role to tell them if they should get married or to tell the pastor whether they should marry. Our role was to make sure they had considered various aspects of marriage.

So I think I could see a suggestion of a personal assessment process, especially for couples under, say 25 years of age.

A couple in my state were pre marriage church counselors, and she ended up having an affair, poisoning him, and going to prison for murder. I guess their church frowned so much on divorce that she thought murder would be a better idea. I can't imagine the "counseling" they must have given to engaged couples.

Who is going to mandate, pay for, coordinate, and hire people to do pre marriage assessments? If the assessment is that it won't be a good marriage, are there consequences? Is the couple then not permitted to marry? I could see a lot of abuse in that process. Like maybe a specific pre marriage counselor is opposed to marriage between different races .... oops, you seem like not a good match, find another!

 

[DCLMP]

Kids do best in happy homes. Staying together is not always the solution.

Maybe the parents should put the kids first and try to get along. There is no reason to fight in front of your kids.

 

[DCLMP]

The divorce rate is on a downward trajectory.

The best way to keep it going that way?

Continue the societal trend of not looking down upon unmarried women. The fewer woman/men who feel forced into marriage because of religion or societal rules, the fewer divorces.

Maybe a continuation of this trend helps as well. People should know more of what they want in a partner when they are older. They should be making a more educated decision prior to getting married that should improve the odds of the marriage lasting.

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Your going to see an even bigger decline in the birth rate if this trend continues. We are already at historic lows below the replacement rate. Women have a biological clock and a small window of fertility.
You also need a stable birth rate to keep the economy going.

 

[mom2rtk]

I don't know. I don't have any good answers. That's why I asked if others had ideas. And the answer may be "there's nothing that can be done". Does that mean the question shouldn't be asked?

Is there any divorce rate that's TOO high? What if 99% of marriages ended in divorce? Is that ok with you?

I'm just a bit taken aback at the idea of people trying to come up with ideas about how to impact intensely personal relationships between others. It strikes me as odd to be looking at this in a societal problem solving fashion. If legislating a woman's health care choices is bad, then why would it be OK to get involved here?

 

[sam_gordon]

I'm just a bit taken aback at the idea of people trying to come up with ideas about how to impact intensely personal relationships between others. It strikes me as odd to be looking at this in a societal problem solving fashion. If legislating a woman's health care choices is bad, then why would it be OK to get involved here?

So nothing should be done to promote healthy, happy marriages?

 

[PollyannaMom]

Your going to see an even bigger decline in the birth rate if this trend continues. We are already at historic lows below the replacement rate.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, though. The fewer of Earth's resources we use, the longer they'll last.

 

[DCLMP]

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, though. The fewer of Earth's resources we use, the longer they'll last.

You do realize you need young people to work and pay taxes, create, build things, take care of the old and the sick. You can't have society of old people living on Social security and Medicare. A steady replacement rate is necessary.