Possible Debate inspired by Desperate Housewives.

[NMAmy]

You know, I was thinking about this thread this morning and I found myself getting a tad annoyed. Not only do working mothers take a lot of flack from SAHM's for not being there for our children, but we also take a lot of flack from other working women about not putting our job first and for trying to be there for our kids. And I'm not saying that it's only women with no children--sometimes moms with older kids forget what it's like.

I guess I just don't understand why there is this constant need to point out that there is only one "right" or "fair" way to do things. I've taken a job that is not as challenging as I might in order to have that flexibility in the workplace and I think I have a pretty good balance between work and home.

However, I do remember when dd was younger and I constantly felt guilty--Guilty if I couldn't be with her when she needed me (sickness, etc.) and guilty if I felt I was spending enough time at the office. I think we're all just doing what is right for ourselves. In my office, the situation is fair because we all have personal time to use as we wish. I'm just glad I have co-workers who feel the same as I do about this issue.

 

[Maleficent13]

Lets get something straight - I asked this question based on a TV show and not about myself personally. I find your comments to be rude.

~Amanda

I am sorry if you found my comments to be rude. I did say they were not directed toward anyone on this thread. I was speaking from experience at my place of business. It is my experience that workers are always alot more interested than they should be in what everyone else is doing. That's all I meant. No rudeness intended.

Amanda, I am PM-ing you.

 

[septbride2002]

I am sorry if you take such personal offense....
like Mal, my comments were not directed to anyone personally.

(BOY,that was some quick response!!!)

I am very aware that you were taking off from the TV show...

However, this is indeed a HUGE personal issue and cultural debate for women in our society today. Which is EXACTLY why it was written into the script... and why there is such a 'lively' discussion going on!!!

I'm sorry but I find it rude when you continue to call people whinny or catty because they do not believe the same thing that you do. While yes this initial thread was started based on a TV show there have been many woman on here who shared their experiences. So when you post rudely about people's feelings I get a bet defensive. There is a way to make you point without name calling.

~Amanda

 

[septbride2002]

You know, I was thinking about this thread this morning and I found myself getting a tad annoyed. Not only do working mothers take a lot of flack from SAHM's for not being there for our children, but we also take a lot of flack from other working women about not putting our job first and for trying to be there for our kids. And I'm not saying that it's only women with no children--sometimes moms with older kids forget what it's like.

I guess I just don't understand why there is this constant need to point out that there is only one "right" or "fair" way to do things. I've taken a job that is not as challenging as I might in order to have that flexibility in the workplace and I think I have a pretty good balance between work and home.

However, I do remember when dd was younger and I constantly felt guilty--Guilty if I couldn't be with her when she needed me (sickness, etc.) and guilty if I felt I was spending enough time at the office. I think we're all just doing what is right for ourselves. In my office, the situation is fair because we all have personal time to use as we wish. I'm just glad I have co-workers who feel the same as I do about this issue.

I agree women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. In a perfect world women who wanted to stay home could, and women who wanted to work could have thier husbands stay home. I agree I think everyone has to make the best out of their situation and hopefully has an understanding boss to help them find balance between the two without infringing on someone else.

~Amanda

 

[aprincessmom]

I'm a single mom. I work for a childless manager. She has missed over 75 days this year alone caring for her mom who is ill. That leaves me to "pick up the slack", a term I loathe. She has other family close by but her mom wants her, not the other siblings, cousins, neices and nephews to care for her. By your definition, this is a non-emergency and she should be denied this time off and I should be miffed that I'm being asked to cover for her. By my definition, she has a need that requires time off. It's none of my business what that need is, if she determines she needs that time, it's hers to take regardless of my opinion.

 

[yeartolate]

Is your guilt self imposed or are their really throngs of SAHM's who are pitted against working mothers?

Most working moms know well in advance which days they will need off. If you are in good standing with your company it shouldn't be a problem getting it off. (in the same way that a non parent knows they have a personal appointment or need weeks in advance - the ask for the day off as well). If you have the time available and it is not a problem for your employer, you get it off.


The main "angst" I see is when working parents who normally do not pull their weight anyway ask for the days off at crucial times.


Folks do need to take jobs and make choices to accomodate their lifestyle. It is unreasonable to think that a mom who has multiple needs for flexibility would take a job that is inflexible. But you see it all the time.

 

[snoopy]

Folks do need to take jobs and make choices to accomodate their lifestyle. It is unreasonable to think that a mom who has multiple needs for flexibility would take a job that is inflexible. But you see it all the time.

I guess if its between that and putting food on your table, you take the job that is inflexible.....

 

[Wishing on a star]

Amanda,

No, no!!! You are mis-reading my posts.... Please take no personal offense.

The 'cattyness' and the 'whining' are things that women on BOTH sides are guilty of!!! (I really see two sides of the issue, and am not trying to judge anyone who does not see it just like me.)

Like in the one example about the 'soccer-game' VS 'to-do-liist'. I feel that in that example, why would either woman (the mom or the childless) have any reason to make an issue of it, or to become 'pissy'.

So, while I think that it is inappropriate for anyone in the workplace to expect time off when it is not absolutely necessary, that applies to ALL women. Not just working moms.

So, you see, I am not disagreeing with you or anybody else on either side of the issue. I guess I am just saying, why let this issue be another Great Divide among women.

Why do we have to become our own worst enemies.

Cheers!!!

 

[Wishing on a star]

I guess if its between that and putting food on your table, you take the job that is inflexible.....

Yes, this is sometimes true...

But, does this mean that employers.. companies with obligations to meet, services to render, deadlines, etc. should have to simply 'accomodate' this woman's needs. Should this company be obligated to pay this woman, while other employers are having to pick up her slack?

That is the whole question posed by this thread. Just how far should Companies be expected to go to accomodate this particular working mom???

Amanda clearly asks in her OP, Should companies put 'family first'.

 

[snoopy]

Yes, this is sometimes true...

But, does this mean that employers.. companies with obligations to meet, services to render, deadlines, etc. should have to simply 'accomodate' this woman's needs. Should this company be obligated to pay this woman, while other employers are having to pick up her slack?

That is the whole question posed by this thread. Just how far should Companies be expected to go to accomodate this particular working mom???

As it pertains to a child's soccer game, no. I do think a lot more leeway should be given as it pertains to the care of a sick child (or for matter, an elder family member).

 

[clutter]

Yes, this is sometimes true...

But, does this mean that employers.. companies with obligations to meet, services to render, deadlines, etc. should have to simply 'accomodate' this woman's needs. Should this company be obligated to pay this woman, while other employers are having to pick up her slack?

That is the whole question posed by this thread. Just how far should Companies be expected to go to accomodate this particular working mom???

Amanda clearly asks in her OP, Should companies put 'family first'.

Goodness. Just how much 'extra' time off do you think this mom needs??

I'm a single mom, so I don't have the 'other' parent to cover when I can't take off work. And I rarely have to take off time unexpectedly for emergencies. Sure, I use some of my vaca days for family stuff. But I get no more vaca than someone without children, so what's the big deal. I leave earllier than my co-workers most days. But I'm in at least a hour before them because of traffic (the reason I leave earlier, too, I live many traffic jams farther away. Wasn't my choice, they moved our office here.). However, I'm lucky. No one covers my work but me, so no one is having to "take up the slack". I know my deadlines, and have taken work home plenty of times to meet them, even when I'm not taking off for family obligations.


In the Desparate Housewives incident, it's tough taking off when there's a department meeting. And being new at a job. But, irl the occasional lateness is usually more than covered by the days you work late/come in early anyway. And irl, coming in late for the first day of school would have been planned out LONG ago, not at the last minute. Personally, I LOVED Lynnette's comment back about the haircut. Frankly, being childfree doesn't mean you should live for your job.

 

[goofygirl]

There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids. To say you don't like them tells me you probably wouldn't be a very sympathetic women boss. Thus proving part of my point. We all started out at one time as a child. We should keep that in mind. Think about how we would have liked our mom or dad home if they worked all the time.

You've proved nothing. I'd be sympathetic if the situation really called for sympathy. If Junior is deathly ill and had to be taken to the ER and you can't come in, I can sympathize. Its a legit excuse. But if you are going to cut out early for petty reasons, or keep leaving the boardroom meeting to go talk to your kid on a video phone (as Lynette did), I will NOT be sympathetic. You are their to WORK, not talk to your kid.

As for "the we were all kids once" cliche, I've heard that a billion times and its not going to change me. Why should I like all kids just because I was one? I was also unemployed once, so should I like all and sympathize with all unemployed people?

And for the record, I was raised by a single, working mother. She was able to raise me with stability and happiness without having to cut out of work on a regular basis. I thought is was great that she worked and wasn't a SAHM.

 

[Jennifer S]

I thought is was great that she worked and wasn't a SAHM.

Just curious. Why do you think that's great?

It's great that she worked hard to support you instead of going on welfare but if she had the choice to stay home wouldn't you rather of had her home instead of having to have someone else watch you?

 

[yeartolate]

I guess if its between that and putting food on your table, you take the job that is inflexible.....

Snoopy, if it is REALLY a question between taking an inflexible job and putting food on the table, you probably would stick the "cutting out early's" for sick kids, not soccer games.

 

[snoopy]

As for "the we were all kids once" cliche, I've heard that a billion times and its not going to change me. Why should I like all kids just because I was one? I was also unemployed once, so should I like all and sympathize with all unemployed people?

Uhhh, I think everyone knows that GG. Besides, who has EVER wanted to change you? You are the one always coming out of the woodwork to spout your "childless by choice" rhetoric.....the rest of us could care less whether you like children or not.

On another note, I've always worked for managers who had the ability to empathize and realize that flexibility is in order in today's corporate world, whether that be to raise happy and succesful children or to further an educaton or to take care of an elderly parent. And of the 5 managers I have had over the course of my career, I've only had one who was a working parent. Fortunately, good managers have been a staple of my career.

 

[snoopy]

Snoopy, if it is REALLY a question between taking an inflexible job and putting food on the table, you probably would stick the "cutting out early's" for sick kids, not soccer games.

Absolutely. Sadly, many are penalized for cutting out early to take care of sick children.

 

[m&m's mom]

Just curious. Why do you think that's great?

It's great that she worked hard to support you instead of going on welfare but if she had the choice to stay home wouldn't you rather of had her home instead of having to have someone else watch you?

OMG!! You have GOT to be kidding! I have read all of these responses- agreed with some and not agreed w/ some as well.
Yours sounds totally insulting.
I work because I WANT to not because I HAVE to.
It is not every working Mom's goal to be home - I prefer to be in the workplace.

 

[Jennifer S]

OMG!! You have GOT to be kidding! I have read all of these responses- agreed with some and not agreed w/ some as well.
Yours sounds totally insulting.
I work because I WANT to not because I HAVE to.
It is not every working Mom's goal to be home - I prefer to be in the workplace.

Sorry - was not meant to be insulting at all. I guess I just can't fathom someone wanting to work if they didn't have to. Not that I'm lazy and don't want to work. I will when the kids are older. I just prefer being the one to raise them. I enjoy it.

I was insulted the goofygal thought it was great her mom wasn't a SAHM. What is wrong with wanting to be a SAHM? I find it a privlege to stay home - not a burden

 

[minmate]

Isn't it really all about balance? What I find more upsetting is that on a whole, as a society, we are pushed to the max and don't seem to be able to have balance in our lives, whether it be to get a hair cut or to take a kid to their first day of school.

What I like seeing are companies who offer PTO (paid time off) -- that you can take for whatever you want. In reality, I think as a mom, I would've asked for the day as a vacation day/PTO for the am, if I wanted to be at the first day of school.

Life is about making choices between our conflicting priorities. Personally, it makes no difference to me why someone may be missing work. It depends on the role I am playing. If they still get the expected results at work, that's all I need to know.

 

[Christine]

On another note, I've always worked for managers who had the ability to empathize and realize that flexibility is in order in today's corporate world, whether that be to raise happy and succesful children or to further an educaton or to take care of an elderly parent. And of the 5 managers I have had over the course of my career, I've only had one who was a working parent. Fortunately, good managers have been a staple of my career.

Me too!! I've been lucky to have a manager who has three children of his own AND his wife is a GS-14 in the civil service. Both of them have "intense" careers and BOTH of them know all about having to miss meetings for sick kids, etc. I'm just so lucky because without my current manager I don't know how I would have made it through two young children AND a cancer diagnosis! But I'm still gainfully employed.