Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

Originally posted by kbeverina
peachgirl, I think my post deserves a response from you:

Sure, I completely forgot...
Just to explain the surroundings...the comments you made were posted right after the news had broken about that slime Cordier who, while working for Bush was involved with the SBVT group and had been removed from the campaign.

This was your response to that development:

"I have long wondered how much Kerry knew about what Joe Wilson did.He was Kerry's top foreign policy advisor when he was making those false claims"


Less than 1 hour before, this had shown up on freepers...

"Bush Supporter Leaves Campaign Over Role in Ad
Yahoo! News ^ | 8-21-04 | Reuters
CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - A Vietnam veteran who worked with President Bush's campaign has left over his appearance in a commercial by a group challenging Democratic candidate John Kerry's war record, a campaign spokesman said on Saturday.

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Ken Cordier was a Bush supporter during the 2000 election and served as a member of his a steering committee to help reach out to veterans during this election."

This was the suggestion listed below on how to counter this news and succeed in getting the Democrats back on the defensive...

"Then let's bring up his hiring the moveon.org guy "

For those who don't know, the moveon.org guy is the guy you mentioned in your response to the news that a Bush worker has a direct tie to SBVT.

My question to you was, were you taking your posting tips from freepers.
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
Sure, I completely forgot...
Just to explain the surroundings...the comments you made were posted right after the news had broken about that slime Cordier who, while working for Bush was involved with the SBVT group and had been removed from the campaign.

This was your response to that development:

"I have long wondered how much Kerry knew about what Joe Wilson did.He was Kerry's top foreign policy advisor when he was making those false claims"


Less than 1 hour before, this had shown up on freepers...

"Bush Supporter Leaves Campaign Over Role in Ad
Yahoo! News ^ | 8-21-04 | Reuters
CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - A Vietnam veteran who worked with President Bush's campaign has left over his appearance in a commercial by a group challenging Democratic candidate John Kerry's war record, a campaign spokesman said on Saturday.

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Ken Cordier was a Bush supporter during the 2000 election and served as a member of his a steering committee to help reach out to veterans during this election."

This was the suggestion listed below on how to counter this news and succeed in getting the Democrats back on the defensive...

"Then let's bring up his hiring the moveon.org guy "

For those who don't know, the moveon.org guy is the guy you mentioned in your response to the news that a Bush worker has a direct tie to SBVT.

My question to you was, were you taking your posting tips from freepers.

I still don't see how that relates to the Joe Wilson comment.

:confused:
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
Sure, I completely forgot...
I doubt you'd like it very much if my response to this was:

Yeah, right.
katerkat didn't appear to know what freepers was either, and you didn't give her that response.

Just to explain the surroundings...the comments you made were posted right after the news had broken about that slime Cordier who, while working for Bush was involved with the SBVT group and had been removed from the campaign.

This was your response to that development:

"I have long wondered how much Kerry knew about what Joe Wilson did.He was Kerry's top foreign policy advisor when he was making those false claims"


Less than 1 hour before, this had shown up on freepers...

"Bush Supporter Leaves Campaign Over Role in Ad
Yahoo! News ^ | 8-21-04 | Reuters
CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - A Vietnam veteran who worked with President Bush's campaign has left over his appearance in a commercial by a group challenging Democratic candidate John Kerry's war record, a campaign spokesman said on Saturday.

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Ken Cordier was a Bush supporter during the 2000 election and served as a member of his a steering committee to help reach out to veterans during this election."

This was the suggestion listed below on how to counter this news and succeed in getting the Democrats back on the defensive...

"Then let's bring up his hiring the moveon.org guy "

For those who don't know, the moveon.org guy is the guy you mentioned in your response to the news that a Bush worker has a direct tie to SBVT.

My question to you was, were you taking your posting tips from freepers.
If you check back, you'll see that my response was not to "that development" about Cordier. My response was to:

The dirty campaigning has been going on forever, and both sides do it.
That should have been pretty clear since that's what I quoted. I didn't comment on Cordier, I didn't know the details about that.

Unlike some other people who post here, I don't go to other message boards and ask what to say.

The biggest controversy last year was the "16 words" and even the press was calling Joe Wilson "the man who debunked the Niger claim" as if that was fact, when it wasn't. There were calls for impeachment, people still saying the president lied--and the guy who sparked all this, was himself proven to be the liar, was the darling of the Democrats--he was Kerry's foreign policy advisor. He was working for the Kerry campaign. He and his cronies heavily involved in MoveOn. Is there coordination? I dunno. But it's awfully fishy.

And, as I suspect you know, I've been saying that for a year now, so clearly it didn't come from that website. Hey, maybe they got it from me--maybe I got a thread over there, too.

As for the Free Republic website, I'm trying to figure out what the big deal is, why it keeps getting mentioned. All they do is pull up articles and post about them--anyone can pull up those articles. They're not posting super-secret information. What am I missing here?

And why would anyone who's not conservative spend any amount of time reading over there? Talk about a lesson in aggravation. Maybe this explains a lot. Like why people are so fired up, so ready to pounce on the littlest things--they're aggravated by these conservative blogs and take out their frustration on the DIS.
 
Then why did the Navy give him the medals? The only candidate that failed his country in this campaign was "W". I doubt there were any VC in the Dentist office in Alabama when he was getting his teeth drilled.
 

Originally posted by Lebjwb
Then why did the Navy give him the medals? The only candidate that failed his country in this campaign was "W". I doubt there were any VC in the Dentist office in Alabama when he was getting his teeth drilled.

They gave him medals because he was the one that filled out the after action reports.

You know, as HE remembered how it happened.

So, what is more painful, the dentist or getting hit by a piece of rice?
 
Originally posted by Elwood Blues
They gave him medals because he was the one that filled out the after action reports.

You know, as HE remembered how it happened.

So, what is more painful, the dentist or getting hit by a piece of rice?

So you are not just challenging Kerry, but the Navy also? I really never knew that the military gave out medals willy nilly like that. I always thought medals were to be an object of respect. How thankful I am to have been enlightened. Now I can know that any serviceman who comes home with a medal may simply have got it for the asking.

It is interesting that the same people who are furious with Kerry for his activities after the war, by tainting the heroism of a veteran, are diminishing the service of the military in that war and the current one, by spreading the lie that medals do not have to be earned.

Oh...one more thing...that report that you claim Kerry signed....is that the one signed by initials similar to Kerry's, but not actually JFK?
 
If you check back, you'll see that my response was not to "that development" about Cordier.

What I meant was, your post followed that development. Your comments of course weren't about that development, but rather what I perceive to be, comments that would turn the heat back on Kerry....which is exactly what the freepers like to do.

A negative story breaks about Bush and they get their little pin heads together and decide what negative thing they can think of to plaster all over the internet to turn the light back on Kerry.

There were calls for impeachment, people still saying the president lied--and the guy who sparked all this, was himself proven to be the liar, was the darling of the Democrats--he was Kerry's foreign policy advisor. He was working for the Kerry campaign. He and his cronies heavily involved in MoveOn. Is there coordination? I dunno. But it's awfully fishy.

And this comment is exactly how they do it....no facts, just allegations that will cause Democrats to start defending Kerry instead of discussing whatever negative story is breaking on Bush.

Perhaps it's absolutely nothing more than coincidence that your post contained the exact message the freepers were wanting put out and well within a hour of them suggesting it. But as you said...it's awfully fishy.

And why would anyone who's not conservative spend any amount of time reading over there?They're not posting super-secret information. What am I missing here?

Because I like to see what the other side is up to. They don't have secret information, but they are very good at organizing mass flooding of a common message. There's power in numbers.


<center><IMG width="150" SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/colonelpanic/DU_Photos/web-content/IwoBush.jpg"></center>
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
So you are not just challenging Kerry, but the Navy also? I really never knew that the military gave out medals willy nilly like that. I always thought medals were to be an object of respect. How thankful I am to have been enlightened. Now I can know that any serviceman who comes home with a medal may simply have got it for the asking.

It is interesting that the same people who are furious with Kerry for his activities after the war, by tainting the heroism of a veteran, are diminishing the service of the military in that war and the current one, by spreading the lie that medals do not have to be earned.

Oh...one more thing...that report that you claim Kerry signed....is that the one signed by initials similar to Kerry's, but not actually JFK?

Oh my. That was quite a leap you made there.

Do you think the Navy is infallible? The military has been accused many times of mistakes but you want me to believe they couldn't have made one here? And I don't think they did based on the information provided them. So in a sense, they awarded Kerry his medals without bias.

I never said anything like "willy nilly". You did.

The medals ARE something to be respected. They SHOULD be earned. But don't be fooled into believing that everyone that gets one was honest in the way they came to get it.

So who (since Kerry was the commanding officer of that SB) filled out the after action reports if it wasn't Kerry?
 
So who (since Kerry was the commanding officer of that SB) filled out the after action reports if it wasn't Kerry?

See...that is not how things work. You accuse Kerry of filling out his own report and then expect me to prove that he didn't. You made the accusation. You prove it, or retract it. Is that not the more honest way to conduct a debate.

Oh...and by the way...did you happen to see the clip of O'Neil's press conference from over 30 years ago shown on TV last night? The one given when he was at war with Kerry over his anti war stance? The one where O'Neil stated firmly that he did not question Kerry's courage on the battlefield?

As to my leap....I am sorry...either the process is valid or it is not. Kindly choose. I stand by what I said. As another poster said quite eloquently : They are not calling Kerry a liar, they are saying that the official records lie. Kerry's story is simply a telling of the official record. So when the Swift Boat Veterans (sic) say it is a lie, they are saying that about the official record. If the official record of valor in combat can be falsified for a Lt.jg, then it can be for anyone.
 
The Washington Post editorial board has finally noticed that Kerry LIED about Cambodia:


Mr. Kerry's conflicting statements about where and when he was in Cambodia remain troubling. He has backed away from repeated claims that he spent Christmas Eve 1968 in Cambodia, a memory that, he said in a 1986 Senate speech, is "seared -- seared -- in me." This does not undermine Mr. Kerry's military bravery, but it does raise an issue of candor. It's fair to ask whether this is an episode of foggy memory, routine political embroidery or something more. Indeed, the Kerry campaign ought to arrange for the full release of all relevant records from the time. Mr. Kerry granted historian Douglas Brinkley exclusive use of his wartime journals and other writings; the campaign should seek to be freed from that agreement and to make all the material public. Though the ads are being underwritten by longtime Bush partisans, the Kerry campaign's claim of illegal coordination between the Swift boat group and the Bush campaign is unconvincing.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27343-2004Aug23.html
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
If the official record of valor in combat can be falsified for a Lt.jg, then it can be for anyone.

Bingo.
 
Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Bingo.

so you agree that no one's medals mean anything?

Personally I like what the LA Times had to say:

"No informed person can seriously believe that Kerry fabricated evidence to win his military medals in Vietnam. His main accuser has been exposed as having said the opposite at the time, 35 years ago. Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation. His accusers have no evidence except their own dubious word."
 
Also from today's Washington Post:

Kerry's Cambodia Whopper

By Joshua Muravchik
Tuesday, August 24, 2004; Page A17

Most of the debate between the former shipmates who swear by John Kerry and the group of other Swift boat veterans who are attacking his military record focuses on matters that few of us have the experience or the moral standing to judge. But one issue, having nothing to do with medals, wounds or bravery under fire, goes to the heart of Kerry's qualifications for the presidency and is therefore something that each of us must consider. That is Kerry's apparently fabricated claim that he fought in Cambodia.

It is an assertion he made first, insofar as the written record reveals, in 1979 in a letter to the Boston Herald. Since then he has repeated it on at least eight occasions during Senate debate or in news interviews, most recently to The Post this year (an interview posted on Kerry's Web site). The most dramatic iteration came on the floor of the Senate in 1986, when he made it the centerpiece of a carefully prepared 20-minute oration against aid to the Nicaraguan contras.

Kerry argued that contra aid could put the United States on the path to deeper involvement despite denials by the Reagan administration of any such intent. Kerry began by reading out similar denials regarding Vietnam from presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon. Then he offered this devastating riposte:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was faulty. When the Swift boat veterans who oppose Kerry presented statements from his commanders and members of his unit denying that his boat entered Cambodia, none of Kerry's shipmates came forward, as they had on other issues, to corroborate his account. Two weeks ago Kerry's spokesmen began to backtrack. First, one campaign aide explained that Kerry had patrolled the Mekong Delta somewhere "between" Cambodia and Vietnam. But there is no between; there is a border. Then another spokesman told reporters that Kerry had been "near Cambodia." But the point of Kerry's 1986 speech was that he personally had taken part in a secret and illegal war in a neutral country. That was only true if he was "in Cambodia," as he had often said he was. If he was merely "near," then his deliberate misstatement falsified the entire speech.

Next, the campaign leaked a new version through the medium of historian Douglas Brinkley, author of "Tour of Duty," a laudatory book on Kerry's military service. Last week Brinkley told the London Telegraph that while Kerry had been 50 miles from the border on Christmas, he "went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions." Oddly, though, while Brinkley devotes nearly 100 pages of his book to Kerry's activities that January and February, pinpointing the locations of various battles and often placing Kerry near Cambodia, he nowhere mentions Kerry's crossing into Cambodia, an inconceivable omission if it were true.

Now a new official statement from the campaign undercuts Brinkley. It offers a minimal (thus harder to impeach) claim: that Kerry "on one occasion crossed into Cambodia," on an unspecified date. But at least two of the shipmates who are supporting Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's book says: "The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away, always making one wonder what lay on the other side." His curiosity was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final mission.

After his discharge, Kerry became the leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Once, he presented to Congress the accounts by his VVAW comrades of having "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires . . . to human genitals . . . razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan . . . poisoned foodstocks." Later it was shown that many of the stories on which Kerry based this testimony were false, some told by impostors who had stolen the identities of real GIs, but Kerry himself was not implicated in the fraud. And his own over-the-top generalization that such "crimes [were] committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command" could be charged up to youthfulness and the fevers of the times.

But Kerry has repeated his Cambodia tale throughout his adult life. He has claimed that the epiphany he had that Christmas of 1968 was about truthfulness. "One of the things that most struck me about Vietnam was how people were lied to," he explained in a subsequent interview. If -- as seems almost surely the case -- Kerry himself has lied about what he did in Vietnam, and has done so not merely to spice his biography but to influence national policy, then he is surely not the kind of man we want as our president.

The writer is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
See...that is not how things work. You accuse Kerry of filling out his own report and then expect me to prove that he didn't. You made the accusation. You prove it, or retract it. Is that not the more honest way to conduct a debate.

I will look for it. I don't know if the after action reports were released. I didn't pull that out of my **** though. I heard others (who were/are in the military) say that's how it works. But think about it. Who else would fill out an after action report if not for the commander of the mission?


Oh...and by the way...did you happen to see the clip of O'Neil's press conference from over 30 years ago shown on TV last night? The one given when he was at war with Kerry over his anti war stance? The one where O'Neil stated firmly that he did not question Kerry's courage on the battlefield?


No, I didn't. Is the same exchange as the transcript posted the other day?


As to my leap....I am sorry...either the process is valid or it is not. Kindly choose. I stand by what I said. As another poster said quite eloquently : They are not calling Kerry a liar, they are saying that the official records lie. Kerry's story is simply a telling of the official record. So when the Swift Boat Veterans (sic) say it is a lie, they are saying that about the official record. If the official record of valor in combat can be falsified for a Lt.jg, then it can be for anyone.

The process works and is valid only when honesty and integrity are used to enter data into it.

I disagree with what you said about the official record. It's Kerry's telling of what happened that becomes the official record. Not the other way around unless I misunderstood what you were saying.
 
And the Washington Post went on to say :

At the same time, the Bush campaign's disingenuous response to the ads -- declining to condemn them but rather calling on all independent "527" groups to cease and desist -- has done no credit to the president, who finally said yesterday that Mr. Kerry "served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record." Resurrecting a tactic wielded against Arizona Sen. John McCain (R) four years ago, Bush surrogates have irresponsibly suggested that Mr. Kerry is dangerously rattled by the controversy, flinging about terms such as "wild-eyed" (Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot) and "losing his cool" (White House press secretary Scott McClellan).

It's remarkable that the current Vietnam debate centers on Mr. Kerry's record. Even if Mr. Bush faithfully fulfilled his National Guard service, he undeniably took steps to avoid the duty for which Mr. Kerry volunteered. Likewise, Vice President Cheney availed himself of five draft deferments.
 
I will look for it. I don't know if the after action reports were released. I didn't pull that out of my **** though. I heard others (who were/are in the military) say that's how it works. But think about it. Who else would fill out an after action report if not for the commander of the mission?

Yes, and I heard that despite the SBVs claim that Kerry filed the report, it was signed by someone else. But since you made the original accusation, I will let you find the data.
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
so you agree that no one's medals mean anything?
b]

That's not what you said. You said " If the official record of valor in combat can be falsified for a Lt.jg, then it can be for anyone. "

That's what I was agreeing with. How that got extended to mean that no ones medal means anything is something you concluded.


Personally I like what the LA Times had to say:

"No informed person can seriously believe that Kerry fabricated evidence to win his military medals in Vietnam. His main accuser has been exposed as having said the opposite at the time, 35 years ago. Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation. His accusers have no evidence except their own dubious word."

I have no doubt you do.

O'Neill's comments back in 71 were made prior to Kerry releasing his book "Tour of Duty" which he revealed facts that O'Neill didn't know at the time. It's reasonable to say that O'Neill could have changed his opinion of Kerry after those facts where published.

And isn't that what's been said about Kerry? That is was 35 years ago, a different time and people mature and can change?
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
And the Washington Post went on to say :

At the same time, the Bush campaign's disingenuous response to the ads -- declining to condemn them but rather calling on all independent "527" groups to cease and desist -- has done no credit to the president, who finally said yesterday that Mr. Kerry "served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record." Resurrecting a tactic wielded against Arizona Sen. John McCain (R) four years ago, Bush surrogates have irresponsibly suggested that Mr. Kerry is dangerously rattled by the controversy, flinging about terms such as "wild-eyed" (Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot) and "losing his cool" (White House press secretary Scott McClellan).

It's remarkable that the current Vietnam debate centers on Mr. Kerry's record. Even if Mr. Bush faithfully fulfilled his National Guard service, he undeniably took steps to avoid the duty for which Mr. Kerry volunteered. Likewise, Vice President Cheney availed himself of five draft deferments.

I read the whole thing, Faith. My point isn't that the liberal Washington Post would still be desperately shilling for John Kerry, that's a given. it's that they've finally acknowledged the Cambodia lie - a fact that's been clogging the internet blogosphere for several weeks without a mention in the mainstream press. It's a triumph for the American people!
 
Originally posted by bsnyder
I read the whole thing, Faith. My point isn't that the liberal Washington Post would still be desperately shilling for John Kerry, that's a given. it's that they've finally acknowledged the Cambodia lie - a fact that's been clogging the internet blogosphere for several weeks without a mention in the mainstream press. It's a triumph for the American people!

Bet, it doesn't seem to matter if Kerry wasn't honest about being there. It means nothing. It was 35 years ago. Get over it!!
 
O'Neill's comments back in 71 were made prior to Kerry releasing his book "Tour of Duty" which he revealed facts that O'Neill didn't know at the time. It's reasonable to say that O'Neill could have changed his opinion of Kerry after those facts where published.

He did not change his opinion, he changed his story. It defies beleif to think that at the time when he was trying his damndest to discredit Kerry he simply chose not to mention that he believed Kerry did not even deserve his medals.

One by one these SBVs are being discredited as liars. The newspaper stories across the country aboud. Here is the latest:


Vets, others call for resignation of prosecutor in Swift Boat ad

OREGON CITY -- A group of Oregon veterans and Clackamas County residents rallied outside the Clackamas County District Attorney's office Monday afternoon calling for the resignation of a prosecutor who appeared in a controversial television ad criticizing Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam War service.

Alfred French, 58, a senior deputy district attorney, appeared in the recent ad by the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth and said: "I served with John Kerry. . . . He is lying about his record." French also signed a legal affadavit attesting to the claim. But French, in an interview with The Oregonian newspaper last week, said he was relying on the accounts of three other veterans when he said Kerry lied. ..

That acknowledgement fueled Monday's protest, where demonstrators contended French is unfit to serve as a prosecutor after swearing to facts that he never personally witnessed. "It is outrageous that Al French and others would try to smear the military record of John Kerry, a man of courage who put his life on the line to save the lives of others," said Don Stewart, a local veteran who organized the protest. "To lie in a sworn affidavit goes beyond political smear, it is cause for this assistant district attorney to resign, and resign now."
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/re.../kgw_082304_news_french_protest.a701071e.html
 















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