Jon and Kate Plus 8 Official Thread - Part 6

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I do think he may have hired that nanny just to push Kate's buttons but if I remember right Kate was the one that called the police over the incident you are talking about.

You are right, my mistake!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm not sure why you quoted me -- I wasn't the one who contended that Jon had been abused, I said I was undecided. You obviously didn't get the point I was making in my post at all.

And Kate admitted that she was the one who called the police.

I forgot she called police.

As for why I quoted you, I disagreed with your assessment to point out Jon's characteristics as an attempt to demonstrate his abuse.

Perhaps I didn't get your post. I reread it and I am still pulling the same vibe.

Your claim that what he did was harmless perhaps?

You agreeing with Walden to focus on what Kate did wrong?

I'm not sure--but I do not get the vibe that you are undecided at all.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm the first person to acknowledge that I have not seen every single episode. I have watched *most* of a marathon, but even people with busted ankles need to take bathroom breaks -- and on crutches that does take a while!

I have yet to see Jon behave as badly toward Kate (on the show) as she has to him.

Asking respectfully, because this was a question in one of my first posts that no one responded to, but can you please point me towards the specific episodes where Jon was out of line?

That said, I think all bets are off after January. They both seem determined to plough the other under in the New Year!

Thanks in advance for your help.

He has sneers and various attitude throughout the course of 5 seasons. It's just something you pick up over time, not necessarily in an afternoon of watching a marathon.

This isn't your fault or anything--but just like you can't spend the afternoon with someone and truly decide if they are a good or bad person.

There is even good in Kate--somewhere. It's gotten more difficult to find in recent seasons. But she's got some good mom bits in her sprinkled throughout.

It really isn't so much of what Jon has done.

He gives this vibe that he doesn't respect his wife and could really care less what her opinions are. Sure she nags him and does her thing and I am not saying that is okay.

But if half of what we here is true about his lack of motivation and his Peter Pan complex, while not "mean" towards his wife--it would make a relationship very difficult when only one half wants to be grownup.

The fact that he COMPLAINS that he had kids too young--is a huge red flag to me that he has a serious selfish side that doesn't like how his life turned out and he wants to reclaim his twenties.

This is all outside of the show--but it is documented statements from Jon.

Perhaps he made a mistake when he married Kate, went through in vitro with her for the twins and then the sextuplets. But that doesn't excuse not behaving like an adult.

Again--this is just my vibe over 4 seasons. I actually do not watch the show anymore.

I know there are people who believe that Kate deserves it or good for Jon for finally standing up.

I think they are both to blame for their demise.

To say it is just Kate based on what we see on tv would presume that if she were "nice" or more "subservient" that this would not have happened. I think that is giving Jon far too much credit.

 

[redrosesix]

I forgot she called police.

As for why I quoted you, I disagreed with your assessment to point out Jon's characteristics as an attempt to demonstrate his abuse.

Perhaps I didn't get your post. I reread it and I am still pulling the same vibe.

Your claim that what he did was harmless perhaps?

You agreeing with Walden to focus on what Kate did wrong?

I'm not sure--but I do not get the vibe that you are undecided at all.

Well, you don't know me and you obviously haven't read enough of my posts to get any vibe from me.

I have said on multiple occasions on this thread and Part 5 that Jon should have stood up for himself, if only to model better behaviour for his kids -- and I do think that when he said things like "Yeah, I'm stupid" or "so now you think I'm fat" is a harmless response. IMO, if he had ever said anything like "your mother has no sense" people would be all over him for that. And as I pointed out in my post, which you only quoted part of, I agree with Walden that his responses to Kate's criticisms were not in any way as nasty.

And of course I agree with Walden on what Kate did wrong -- I was horrified at some of the things Kate said to Jon. I think her language was abusive but I wouldn't say it necessarily was abuse -- I don't know if she talked to him like that all the time, or if there were times that she was much nicer to him. And although I agree that his behaviour was very similar to somebody who had been in a verbally abusive relationship, IMO he could have just had enough and was not going to fight back using the same tactics.

 

[walden]

He has sneers and various attitude throughout the course of 5 seasons. It's just something you pick up over time, not necessarily in an afternoon of watching a marathon.

This isn't your fault or anything--but just like you can't spend the afternoon with someone and truly decide if they are a good or bad person.

There is even good in Kate--somewhere. It's gotten more difficult to find in recent seasons. But she's got some good mom bits in her sprinkled throughout.

It really isn't so much of what Jon has done.

He gives this vibe that he doesn't respect his wife and could really care less what her opinions are. Sure she nags him and does her thing and I am not saying that is okay.

But if half of what we here is true about his lack of motivation and his Peter Pan complex, while not "mean" towards his wife--it would make a relationship very difficult when only one half wants to be grownup.

The fact that he COMPLAINS that he had kids too young--is a huge red flag to me that he has a serious selfish side that doesn't like how his life turned out and he wants to reclaim his twenties.

This is all outside of the show--but it is documented statements from Jon.

Perhaps he made a mistake when he married Kate, went through in vitro with her for the twins and then the sextuplets. But that doesn't excuse not behaving like an adult.

Again--this is just my vibe over 4 seasons. I actually do not watch the show anymore.

I know there are people who believe that Kate deserves it or good for Jon for finally standing up.

I think they are both to blame for their demise.

To say it is just Kate based on what we see on tv would presume that if she were "nice" or more "subservient" that this would not have happened. I think that is giving Jon far too much credit.

Thanks for responding to my question. I just wrote a long response and accidentally deleted it, by trying to add multiple quotes. I'll try to be briefer here!

When I watched the show, it raised many red flags for me regarding emotional abuse. I don't know Jon or Kate, but the behaviours were worrying. Emotional abuse, and the damage it causes, are so often underestimated. I think those some of those red flags are worth discussing, because domestic violence is always horrible.

I'm hoping that you intelligent people can discuss them without being overly defensive of either Jon or Kate. I'm on neither "team." I don't want to stir people up, especially as I'm new here, and if no one wants to discuss it, fine. I'll just talk about Kate's hair (which isn't that bad, IMHO) or how cute the kids are. I think you are a nice crowd.

You said:
He gives this vibe that he doesn't respect his wife and could really care less what her opinions are. Sure she nags him and does her thing and I am not saying that is okay.

You see, a vibe isn't quite enough for me, because I didn't get disrespect. I saw hurt, and attempts to dismiss her criticism with self-deprecation. Nor would I describe Kate's behaviour as nagging. I think it goes well beyond that. I don't think she should be *subservient,* there is an enormous gap between respecting your partner and subservience.

You said:
But if half of what we here is true about his lack of motivation and his Peter Pan complex, while not "mean" towards his wife--it would make a relationship very difficult when only one half wants to be grownup.

I think that we heard about his supposed irresponsibility and lack of motivation primarily from Kate. She called him her "9th child." Ouch! I think labeling him with a Peter Pan complex is also incorrect. We don't know. I think he has demonstrated quite a lot of responsibility with the children over the years. Most of the "Jon can't keep a job," rhetoric is also speculation. He may have had excellent performance evaluations at his state job for all we know. When he left that job they said that it was to get a more flexible schedule, and then their job was the show.

I have said before that I do not like Jon's recent behaviour, but we also don't know that he was always a womanizing, spendthrift, unmotivated twerp! I would also like to repeat that substance abuse to dull the pain and depression is quite common in victims of abuse. Temporarily going off the rails with spending (especially if the abusive partner controlled all the finances) is also not uncommon. So is expressing regret for having spent that much time in a destructive relationship -- but I wish he'd shut up and leave the kids out of it! Womanizing and vacillitating might be trying to rescue his damaged self-esteem from the toilet! I think he needs to get into counselling fast, whatever the reason.

Anyway can I get back to the red flags I saw? You don't have to agree with them or me, but here you go:

Kate: Wants control and sets the "rules", likes Jon to be passive and give in to her demands, even breathing softly; has very rigid expectations and won't compromise even on the color of scrunchies; has few other friends (reputedly), Jon is the only one who understood her she said herself.

She belittles Jon and ridicules him. She criticizes the way he performs tasks constantly; apparently isolated him from friends and family; has an intense hair-trigger temper (she scares me sometimes); projects blame for their relationship difficulties (if you anticipated my stress I wouldn't need to yell) onto Jon; refuses counselling (according to Jon). She threw away his valued possessions (I think she did this) and controlled all the finances . . .

Hmmm. All of these are characteristics that fit the profile of an abuser. So does being a very accomplished liar and projecting a very charming image to outsiders. I'm not saying she is a liar. I'm just saying that I don't always believe her.

I'll shut up now.

 

[redrosesix]

I think Walden's post was well said and very complete, but I'd like to focus on the statement made earlier about Jon being unmotivated and lazy ie. that Kate had an excuse to nag him. Have we ever heard this said by anybody other than Kate or posters comparing him to their ex-BIL? I know that when I did watch the show, and according to the interviews with him, there was no reason to believe that this was the case. On the show, from what Kate said she was mostly upset that he didn't do things her way -- that doesn't mean that he didn't do them.

Anybody?

 

[walden]

I am having difficulty accepting he is a victim of abuse.

I have been a victim. I have witnessed abuse.

He had plenty of opportunity to deal with Kate.

Plus he doesn't really claim he is a victim of abuse. He doesn't like the way he was treated--but he doesn't label himself a victim.

She wasn't nice--she still isn't nice.

Throwing out a "see what happens when he stands up to Kate" when she doesn't approve of the sitter that he has isn't a valid comparison.

Noone expects him to fight--but good gosh, he could have stood up for himself. He's done it before. And the "not on tape" comment goes both ways--we do not know the extent of his "laziness" or "inattentiveness" or "lack of parenting" that exists on the cutting room floor.

His idea of standing up now is acting like a 12 year old. And it is plausible that he called the cops to piss her off.

Darn, this is really important and was lost when I did that last response, so I can't quite shut up yet. So sorry if I'm bugging all of you.

First of all, I am so sorry that you (Lisa Loves Pooh) are a survivor of abuse. I admire your courage in disclosing. And you are a survivor -- but so am I..

I had an emotionally and physically abusive father. I know how destructive it can be. Emotional abuse is as destructive as physical abuse, but does not leave the physical bruises and scars. So I really want to name it when I think I see it. Even on a TV show -- and even when I don't have all the facts -- I need to identify those red flags.

I'm retired -- read pretty old! I spent many years recovering from my childhood. But I also did over 10 years in my 40s in the trenches with domestic violence and vulnerable adult abuse prevention. I was pretty darn good at it. I could never do CPS. It would have brought back too many memories.

Anyway, somewhere along the line I learned never to compare pain. Abuse is abuse, even if it did not reach the threshhold that I experienced. And many of the situations I dealt with were infinitely worse than what I experienced. Abusive behaviour is always damaging.

It is also really hard to fight back against. I do have some understanding of that. I'll talk more about it if you want me too.

And now I really will try to shut up. Unless people ask me to speak again.

 

[LoraJ]

I dated a guy who was emotionally abusive. I just could not do anything right. I didn't take it. I stood up to it and then I got out of it.

Jon gave it as good as he got. I sawe several instances of him being nasty towards Kate.

 

[3prettyprincesses]

Darn, this is really important and was lost when I did that last response, so I can't quite shut up yet. So sorry if I'm bugging all of you.

First of all, I am so sorry that you (Lisa Loves Pooh) are a survivor of abuse. I admire your courage in disclosing. And you are a survivor -- but so am I..

I had an emotionally and physically abusive father. I know how destructive it can be. Emotional abuse is as destructive as physical abuse, but does not leave the physical bruises and scars. So I really want to name it when I think I see it. Even on a TV show -- and even when I don't have all the facts -- I need to identify those red flags.

I'm retired -- read pretty old! I spent many years recovering from my childhood. But I also did over 10 years in my 40s in the trenches with domestic violence and vulnerable adult abuse prevention. I was pretty darn good at it. I could never do CPS. It would have brought back too many memories.

Anyway, somewhere along the line I learned never to compare pain. Abuse is abuse, even if it did not reach the threshhold that I experienced. And many of the situations I dealt with were infinitely worse than what I experienced. Abusive behaviour is always damaging.

It is also really hard to fight back against. I do have some understanding of that. I'll talk more about it if you want me too.

And now I really will try to shut up. Unless people ask me to speak again.

I don't mind your posts! I love to hear other people's opinions of J&K. You made some very interesting points.

I wonder if Jon would consider himself abused. I don't know, abuse is such a strong word. Kate's 'love taps' didn't strike me as abusive. Sure she didn't speak kindly and I wouldn't want to treat someone I loved that way. But abuse? I just don't know. Of course, we've only seen snippets of their lives on the show and it's hard to guess what happened behind the scenes. Kate is pretty outspoken. I guess (sadly) only the kids know how awful they treated each other.

 

[redrosesix]

And now I really will try to shut up. Unless people ask me to speak again.

Hey -- keep going.

 

[redrosesix]

I don't mind your posts! I love to hear other people's opinions of J&K. You made some very interesting points.

I wonder if Jon would consider himself abused. I don't know, abuse is such a strong word. Kate's 'love taps' didn't strike me as abusive. Sure she didn't speak kindly and I wouldn't want to treat someone I loved that way. But abuse? I just don't know. Of course, we've only seen snippets of their lives on the show and it's hard to guess what happened behind the scenes. Kate is pretty outspoken. I guess (sadly) only the kids know how awful they treated each other.

Sorry, this is OT but your post reminded me of something -- when Kate's lawyers released the statement that she was going to ask the courts for full custody of the kids, they also stated that they were going to use the shows as evidence to support her case.

I agree with you that we don't really get enough from the show to know what really went on in that house -- so what could her lawyers use to support the claim that Jon should not have custody of the kids? And relevant to the current topic, once they use this tactic, wouldn't it work against her ie couldn't Jon's lawyers do the same ie. show the scenes where Kate is having a meltdown?

 

[3prettyprincesses]

Sorry, this is OT but your post reminded me of something -- when Kate's lawyers released the statement that she was going to ask the courts for full custody of the kids, they also stated that they were going to use the shows as evidence to support her case.

I agree with you that we don't really get enough from the show to know what really went on in that house -- so what could her lawyers use to support the claim that Jon should not have custody of the kids? And relevant to the current topic, once they use this tactic, wouldn't it work against her ie couldn't Jon's lawyers do the same ie. show the scenes where Kate is having a meltdown?

I don't see how they could use anything from the show. If Kate uses footage, Jon will just do the same. Plus, that doesn't seem like something admissable, does it? I think Kate's lawyers are grasping at straws if they think they can use show footage. Unless there's cut footage that TLC is going to provide where Jon behaved badly. Who'd have thought you could use your reality TV show for leverage in a custody case. I hope that's just a rumor...

 

[redrosesix]

I don't see how they could use anything from the show. If Kate uses footage, Jon will just do the same. Plus, that doesn't seem like something admissable, does it? I think Kate's lawyers are grasping at straws if they think they can use show footage. Unless there's cut footage that TLC is going to provide where Jon behaved badly. Who'd have thought you could use your reality TV show for leverage in a custody case. I hope that's just a rumor...

I think that must be it. I'd say it's not a rumour because it was in the lawyer's press release ie. he entirely unnecessary press release, since without it we'd know nothing about her plans because they filed in a county where divorce proceedings are kept private. I still don't understand why they put that out there.

 

[3prettyprincesses]

I think that must be it. I'd say it's not a rumour because it was in the lawyer's press release ie. he entirely unnecessary press release, since without it we'd know nothing about her plans because they filed in a county where divorce proceedings are kept private. I still don't understand why they put that out there.

You know I'm wondering what that footage could be...I remember several times where Jon grabbed one of the kids very roughly and stalked off with them. I also remember one time Kate complaining to him and he saying something like he'll handle the child (can't remember which one) his way and insinuating that Kate knew what he meant. Gosh, I wish I could remember it correctly, I think it was the zoo one? Anyone else remember that? Am I making stuff up?

 

[hbkfan637]

Absolutely agreed with the above. Those slaps and spanks do seem on the verge of being out of control. Also, she appeared to hit that tup quite hard and in anger. Those pictures were unpleasant.

I think in the earlier episodes Jon did try to stand up for himself a bit. When she yelled at him at Toys R Us he did tell her that he was embarrassed and (paraphrase) told her he thought that it made her look bad. I thought he handled it fairly well. He also told her that he didn't like the *love tapping.* Fair enough. She promptly slapped him again -- "You mean like this?"

Jon is behaving really badly right now, and I wish he get (back?) into counseling. He needs it. I think he has lots of issues he needs to work through. In domestic violence situations many people still blame the victim -- why didn't she stand up to him or why didn't she just leave? If the victim is male then they are even more likely to be blamed.

As far as verbal/emotional abuse goes, I think one of the most telling episodes is "Most Embarassing Moments." It starts off with Jon apologizing for a remark he made to Kate ("When are you going to take the stick out, Kate?") It then shows a slew of Kate "melt downs" including the yelling at Jon at Toys R Us. Seeing them all in a row is telling. Frankly, I think most people would look at the footage and be a bit embarrassed. Not Kate. No acknowlegement that she could be at fault. No suggestion that she might have handled things better. She wants to fight every battle again and make everything Jon's fault because he doesn't anticipate when she is getting stressed and ask what she needs. The guy just can't win.

Jon literally shuts down, and shuts up, during the episode. You can see him give up. It isn't *sulking* and shouldn't be labeled *passive-aggressive.* He looks completely defeated and ends up promising Kate that he will try to do better. She doesn't promise to try not to yell at him or concede a single point.

I'm sure many people will disagree. All of this is just my opinion.

There are a few episodes were Jon addresses Kate's "love taps." Sometimes he would joke and say he likes them and other times he'll say that he doesn't like them. Maybe Kate doesn't know he really hates them because he jokes around sometimes.


The "Most Embarrassing" episode was horrible. I still cringe thinking about Kate going off on Jon about the "stick up her you know" thing. I admit she can be mean but I feel like they both have their moments.

 

[whitneyNC]

I dated a guy who was emotionally abusive. I just could not do anything right. I didn't take it. I stood up to it and then I got out of it.Jon gave it as good as he got. I sawe several instances of him being nasty towards Kate.

Isn't this what Jon did?
Was him "giving it" standing up for himself? If he stands up for himself he's giving it back (being like Kate), if he doesn't he is a wuss. I think she was abusive, and he shut down emotionally, then checked out. If he were a woman, nobody would say he is passive aggresive, has no backbone, just took it, etc. They'd call him a victim.

 

[Buckalew11]

There are a few episodes were Jon addresses Kate's "love taps." Sometimes he would joke and say he likes them and other times he'll say that he doesn't like them. Maybe Kate doesn't know he really hates them because he jokes around sometimes.


The "Most Embarrassing" episode was horrible. I still cringe thinking about Kate going off on Jon about the "stick up her you know" thing. I admit she can be mean but I feel like they both have their moments.

That's what I remember---him joking about liking it and speaking out about it a few times also. Sort of a love/hate kind of thing. And, I don't think he minded as much until he became the butt of the jokes (like on the Soup) and his manliness questioned. Then I think he thought twice about it all.

The whole embarrassing moments show was pretty bad. I also saw Jon as someone who dished it out as well as took it. I do think Kate more and more hateful with some of her comments and I wonder if that is when things started getting really bad for them. It was like, to me, that you could just watch the marriage, love, respect etc. go straight down the tubes.

 

[OK!]

Ok maybe I spoke too soon!

http://www.okmagazine.com/2009/09/kate-gosselins-future-farmers/

I hate all of the uncomfortable back-and-forth J&K stuff and so generally stay out of any threads about them (and try to tune out when they occur on TV), but I just wanted to say that I thought the boys looked darling in their cowboy boots with non-cowboy garb.

 

[hbkfan637]

That's what I remember---him joking about liking it and speaking out about it a few times also. Sort of a love/hate kind of thing. And, I don't think he minded as much until he became the butt of the jokes (like on the Soup) and his manliness questioned. Then I think he thought twice about it all.

The whole embarrassing moments show was pretty bad. I also saw Jon as someone who dished it out as well as took it. I do think Kate more and more hateful with some of her comments and I wonder if that is when things started getting really bad for them. It was like, to me, that you could just watch the marriage, love, respect etc. go straight down the tubes.

I agree! Did anyone use to watch Roseanne? Sometimes I think Jon & Kate had a relationship like Dan & Roseanne. Some jokes that seem like put downs to others aren't to them, their arguments could get pretty scary, etc. but in the end, they loved each other and had a good relationship. But with Jon & Kate, the stress of raising 8 kids, being in the public eye, and being ridiculed got to them and led them to where they are now.

I was watching the Surviving Sextuplets & Twins special today. Some people say Kate is evil because she use to say stuff about Jon's weight and made him get hair plugs, well, when Jon was talking about Kate's hair (how it just to be long, curly, and blond) and she asked for the true answer to whether he would still have married her if he knew she wasn't a natural blond, he said "The true answer is I only like blonds." Also, when they were talking about her tummy, he said something about being able to take a paper cutter and then made *cutting noises.* If I was Kate, those comments would have hurt a little but she laughed with him. They just seemed to have that type of relationship. And by that type I mean like Dan & Roseanne's (Sorry I don't know how else to describe it).

 

[mousey]

Jon has been acting like a jerk lately, but I don't ever remember him being mean to Kate. Kate dished out a lot to him--he took it--you can only take so much--he had enough.
Here is Kate traveling around like a jetsetter with her bodyguard and Jon is stuck home with the kids? She misses her kids so much but is gone 5 out of 7 days? Now she wants to control who Jon has around when its his turn for custody of the kids.
Kate loves the media attention. The show is dropping ratings steadily and she will do anything---anything to stay in the news.