Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

[dlavender]

Did some one just say, Pot meet kettle????

Admitting to the claim, I guess?

 

[dlavender]

Umm, just use the stats from Disney itself and you get a MUCH higher number than one in a million. The number of visitors in the last 46 years divided by TWO. That's a rather sizable amount more than one in a million.

Yes, because a family who parks in the parking lot, takes the monorail over, leaves via the same method, assumes the same risk as someone staying on the lagoon for a week.........

 

[Metalliman98]

Yes, because cars are preserving an image. They serve no other purpose.

Yes, I can't think of any purpose a bathtub plays other than preserving an image.

I know you are trying. I appreciate it.

The "preserve the image" qualification was something you added to your original argument, as in "especially if you are only playing the odds to preserve an image". Your main point was that the odds should not be played in any circumstances, regardless if it is for image, but especially not for image. Well, the playing the odds argument can also be made for cars, pools, tubs, and countless other things which actually have a much higher chance of harming or killing you. To be logically consistent with your argument, you can never play the odds with any activity, no matter how small the odds are. Or in other words, "better safe than sorry", which is a terrible way to approach life.

 

[Corsetopia]

Well let's take it to the extreme-why not warn everyone about every possible danger on every single activity, no matter how remote the danger or how mundane the activity? More info and disclaimers are always better....until they turn society into a bunch of drooling simpletons.

You can't possibly suggest that Americans have gotten smarter over the past 50 years even as the amount of warnings and disclaimers has exploded. We've gotten dumber, because we are bombarded with info and warnings, and trained ourselves to use them as replacements for common sense.

Are you kidding me? We're talking about a sign that could have saved a small child's life. That's not worth it to you? That's taking it to the 'extreme'? This isn't a bathtub or stove we're talking about here (which, by the way, most people use on a daily basis) - we're talking about an alligator population that some people don't know about because they live in different areas of the world and came to visit a theme park on vacation that didn't have a warning sign at this particular 'beachy' area.

Common sense? Disney is marketed to the entire US and world. Some people don't have any other outside knowledge of the Florida area - they pay for a vacation on property, take DME directly to the resort, never venture out of the 'Disney bubble' and then take DME back to the airport and back home. A simple alligator warning sign isn't going to produce 'drooling idiots' as you so eloquently stated. It might save a child or pet's life. Do some people ignore signs? Of course! But let's at least give people a chance.

 

[LSLS]

Umm, just use the stats from Disney itself and you get a MUCH higher number than one in a million. The number of visitors in the last 46 years divided by TWO. That's a rather sizable amount more than one in a million.

Heck, I will even error conservative. We have had 6 deaths in the last 8 years in the US. the Florida population is 19.9 million. so, based on 6 attacks in 8 years, you have 0.75 attacks per year. Divide 19.9 million people by 0.75 attacks, and you assuming all gators are in Florida (and only attacks are in Florida), and there are 0 net tourists, you have a 1 in 26.5 million chance of being attacked in a given year.

 

[3timesmom]

There was a post in another forum that I think had a great idea of how to better inform everyone on lake safety.... They had an example of a small retaining wall with a beach. It still looked like a beach with a great view but there was a visual element not meant to protect you but to alert you that passing towards the water wasn't a good idea... not high enough to feel safe/be a seat, but not low enough to get covered over with sand.

I think this is an excellent way to keep the charm of the beach, have a place to put some more signs.. A wall isn't going to protect anyone but it will help inform everyone to stay out of the water without an overblown eye soar...

I personally like the beaches but agree that there isn't enough visitor education on what the local wildlife is and what to do or not to do while visiting.. It's also first time in 45 years and alligators are part of the ecosystem here.. 1/3rd of the land will be a sanctuary/unused so some education is good.

I think you are absolutely right! There are a lot of people judging these parents and talking about stupidity and all but I think that in this particular case, the family wasn't doing anything wrong, the toddler wasn't swimming, he was playing near the water, something my own children did many times before…but if there was some kind of warning at the premises ( not don't swim, but something like beware of alligators or alligator prone area or whatever) I would never let them go even NEAR the beach…A "swimming not allowed"sign it's simply telling you not to swim ( there can be many causes for that - polluted water, lack of life guards,etc) but a sign with "beware of alligators" it's telling you there might be alligators in the area, something that I never imagined being possible ( I thought this was an artificial lagoon, I didn't know it was connected to swamp canals…).Disney is known for being extra careful on security so it's really suprising that they never thought that something like that could occur and never took any safety measures to prevent such a horrible accident…

 

[dlavender]

The "preserve the image" qualification was something you added to your original argument, as in "especially if you are only playing the odds to preserve an image". Your main point was that the odds should not be played in any circumstances, regardless if it is for image, but especially not for image. Well, the playing the odds argument can also be made for cars, pools, tubs, and countless other things which actually have a much higher chance of harming or killing you. To be logically consistent with your argument, you can never play the odds with any activity, no matter how small the odds are. Or in other words, "better safe than sorry", which is a terrible way to approach life.

I'm sorry I didn't devote 10 hours to writing a concentrated thesis for you the first time....

If you have inadequate signage/warnings, and have the inadequate signage/warnings, on a leisurely activity, because you don't want to disturb the theme/image, and are backing up your decision to not change said signage due to the statistical chance of 1/billion that someone will be harmed, then you are in the wrong.

Does that work?

If not, tell me how I should frame it so you can understand that I'm not talking about bathtubs or water inflatable water toys.

 

[LSLS]

Those stats are misleading. As mentioned before, no one in Tennessee could possibly be attacked by an alligator. It's literally impossible. Including the US population is misleading. How many gator attacks in Nevada?

Well I just ran them as absolutely in your favor as I could. If you want, I could probably find an average number of tourists and factor them in, then put in populations in LA/MS and at least part of TX, and probably bring that number closer to 1 in 50 million. I don't think I need to look up other numbers to tell you how insanely unlikely that really is. And if you look at just Disney, the numbers are ridiculously unlikely. I don't completely disagree about putting up more signs, but your numbers are factors off.

 

[rteetz]

I don't think the gators should be stopped. the problem wasn't the gator in my mind, it was a family that didn't know being on the edge of the water wasn't safe..

I really think the only thing Disney will do and probably should do is change signing and that's it.

 

[dlavender]

Well I just ran them as absolutely in your favor as I could. If you want, I could probably find an average number of tourists and factor them in, then put in populations in LA/MS and at least part of TX, and probably bring that number closer to 1 in 50 million. I don't think I need to look up other numbers to tell you how insanely unlikely that really is.

I'll help you out even further.

Let's just say that the chance is 1/billion that the ending result is death and all you have to do is just disclose the danger of that 1/billion chance. I would just do it. Not talking about ending the activity. Just talking about putting up a sign warning of the danger of that 1/billion chance.

I guess that's where we differ.

You say, aw, just leave it, there's a 1/billion chance one of these things will kill anyone. We're fine.....

 

[Metalliman98]

Are you kidding me? We're talking about a sign that could have saved a small child's life. That's not worth it to you? That's taking it to the 'extreme'? This isn't a bathtub or stove we're talking about here (which, by the way, most people use on a daily basis) - we're talking about an alligator population that some people don't know about because they live in different areas of the world and came to visit a theme park on vacation that didn't have a warning sign at this particular 'beachy' area.

Common sense? Disney is marketed to the entire US and world. Some people don't have any other outside knowledge of the Florida area - they pay for a vacation on property, take DME directly to the resort, never venture out of the 'Disney bubble' and then take DME back to the airport and back home. A simple alligator warning sign isn't going to produce 'drooling idiots' as you so eloquently stated. It might save a child or pet's life. Do some people ignore signs? Of course! But let's at least give people a chance.

A singular sign would not produce simpletons, I agree. But we are far past a singular sign, aren't we? Look at how many warnings and disclaimers we receive on a daily basis. Look at how many people are calling not just for warning signs, but to remove the beaches entirely, drain the lagoon, fence it off, kill all the gators....we're striving to create an idiot-proof world, and as a result are finding that we need to idiot-proof more and more things. As another poster said, they don't have anywhere near the level of these warnings and disclaimers in other first world countries, because they value common sense and being accountable for your own actions and decisions. We don't. We are always looking for someone else to blame. It's why we have to have warnings on coffee cups that the coffee might actually be hot. It's why we are the laughing stock of the rest of the world.

 

[LSLS]

I really think the only thing Disney will do and probably should do is change signing and that's it.

Maybe. I actually wouldn't mind them putting up a sea wall/barrier of some kind. It's not going to prevent gators from coming onto the beach (which they mainly will do for sunbathing), but prevents people from getting in the water when there is no way they should. I also think closing the beaches at night is a good idea (lots of beaches do this).

 

[LSLS]

I'll help you out even further.

Let's just say that the chance is 1/billion that the ending result is death and all you have to do is just disclose the danger of that 1/billion chance. I would just do it. Not talking about ending the activity. Just talking about putting up a sign warning of the danger of that 1/billion chance.

I guess that's where we differ.

You say, aw, just leave it, there's a 1/billion chance one of these things will kill anyone. We're fine.....

I've never said no signs. But, your numbers are way off. You are much more likely to die from snake bites. Do you worry about signs being up in Disney for snakes? Once again, I'm fine with signs and maybe even a bit further as I have ALWAYS indicated. But the chances of dying from a gator are insanely low, and at some point you need to ask yourself how many signs need to be put up.

Just out of curiosity, had signs been up that said absolutely no getting in the water at all (as opposed to what some see as the ambiguous statement of no swimming), would that have been sufficient for you?

 

[Keekski]

FTR, the movies are not ON the beach. They are in a grassy area near the pool/QSRs at both the GF & Poly.

Regardless, I believe the No swimming signs should indicate there are alligators in the water.

 

[3timesmom]

I think some of you are being too extreme…there is a HUGE difference between warning that you might get burned if you touch a heated stove from a sign in a vacation area full of children warning that there might be alligators nearby…HUGE difference that could have saved that poor toddler…Disney receives visitors from around the world, some don't even know that Disney was constructed over a swamp or that Orlando is full of alligators…

 

[Corsetopia]

A singular sign would not produce simpletons, I agree. But we are far past a singular sign, aren't we? Look at how many warnings and disclaimers we receive on a daily basis. Look at how many people are calling not just for warning signs, but to remove the beaches entirely, drain the lagoon, fence it off, kill all the gators....we're striving to create an idiot-proof world, and as a result are finding that we need to idiot-proof more and more things. As another poster said, they don't have anywhere near the level of these warnings and disclaimers in other first world countries, because they value common sense and being accountable for your own actions and decisions. We don't. We are always looking for someone else to blame. It's why we have to have warnings on coffee cups that the coffee might actually be hot. It's why we are the laughing stock of the rest of the world.

I understand where you're coming from to an extent, but I disagree concerning this particular situation. I don't think we're far past a singular sign for this situation. Do I think they need to eradicate the alligators, remove the beaches, place concrete barriers, etc - no! I think a warning sign would suffice and would keep most parents with small children away from the water area. I don't agree that this would be 'idiot proofing' Disney. I think you're taking this unimaginable situation and reaching too far. We really shouldn't compare it with 'hot coffee' warning signs or a restaurant being sued because of it. To me, that's completely different and about money. This, however, isn't about that. It's about lowering the chance of this already rare occurrence from happening again, it's about alerting people to be more aware of their surroundings. People go to Disney and let their guard down a bit because they're on vacation - that doesn't make them idiots, it makes them human. I think giving them a little reminder that there are predators out there can't hurt whatsoever.

 

[dlavender]

I've never said no signs. But, your numbers are way off. You are much more likely to die from snake bites. Do you worry about signs being up in Disney for snakes? Once again, I'm fine with signs and maybe even a bit further as I have ALWAYS indicated. But the chances of dying from a gator are insanely low, and at some point you need to ask yourself how many signs need to be put up.

Just out of curiosity, had signs been up that said absolutely no getting in the water at all (as opposed to what some see as the ambiguous statement of no swimming), would that have been sufficient for you?

As I've stated before, if Disney has a team of people plucking poisonous snakes from the property, and they know they see at least one a day, then yes, a sign needs to be put up. Again, if they know of a threat, they need to make sure their international travelers are aware of it.

Perhaps not you, that comment was for others who feel like statistics should be used in lieu of education.

The only signs that need to be put up are those that communicate threats that are known about, and could cause serious harm.

As long as the sign conveys danger, and is not a docile one meant to blend in.

 

[ck2d]

Amen. A simple, "dangerous natural predators" sign would cover it.

No way would that work. There will always be a portion of the population who will think, "cool, I'm going to go check that out."

 

[XXRAINMANX]

EXACTLY, WHERE WERE THE WARNINGS. IT MAY NOT HAVE COMMON KNOWLEDGE TO THEM! ITS NOT TO MANY PEOPLE! PEOPLE ARE FROM ALL KINDS OF WALKS OF LIFE. GET OUT OF YOUR BUBBLE AND PUT BY YOURSELF IN ANOTHER PERSONS SHOES. NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME BRAIN, UPBRINGING, AND KNOWLEDGE. YOU DONT HAVE AN ARGUMENT.

IS IT KNOWLEDGE TO YES BUT THATS BECAUSE I GREW UP VACATIONING IN FLORIDA AND HAD RELATIVES THERE. ANYONE THAT IS CALLING ANYONE STUPID OR SAYING THEY CANT BELIEVE THE PARENTS NEEDS TO NOT PASS JUDGEMENT SO QUICK!

STOP YELLING, I don't live in a bubble, your right people live are from different walks of life, and a sign won't fix that if someone can't read English, doesn't know what a "no swimming" symbol means, and has no idea what an alligator looks like or does; so as I've stated numerous times at this point a sign is only as good as the person interpreting and understanding it. Next, at some point people will have to decide what is common knowledge and what isn't. I personally believe that gators in lakes are common knowledge especially in Florida. Furthermore, being in a semi-wildlife environment means to be that wildlife could be present and some of those may be dangerous. Additionally, I take "no swimming" symbols to means stay out of the water entirely feet and all, and depending on what report you go by the child could have been between ankle deep (unknown if child's or adult ankle) to 1-2 feet deep in the water. That child was in the water and shouldn't have been. The definition of swimming will need to be determined as well, and I've already stated my opinion on the matter. Next, since you seem full of adding things I haven't said, I haven't called anyone stupid, and I didn't say anything about not believing a parent. I'm stating this is a tragic accident and blame is with no one, and unless we want to live in a world that is plastered with warnings about every tiny little potential threat then we need to use our brains and realize nothing is ever 100% safe and risk exists in everything we do.

 

[rteetz]

Maybe. I actually wouldn't mind them putting up a sea wall/barrier of some kind. It's not going to prevent gators from coming onto the beach (which they mainly will do for sunbathing), but prevents people from getting in the water when there is no way they should. I also think closing the beaches at night is a good idea (lots of beaches do this).

I don't disagree I just think Disney isn't going to go that far.