Fourth Grade Math Problem. --Oct 15th updates in post #69

[TheSchragFamily]

I would not allow my child to continue in that brainless teacher's class.

 

[busyshrew]

This would be my response:

Dear Teacher,

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly.

I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly.

I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653.

I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many.

For example:
624+29=624+(30-1).
Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent:
624+(30-1)=624+30-1.

However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example:
653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1

As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem):
653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1

I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

 

[chamonix]

This would be my response:

Dear Teacher,

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly.

I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly.

I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653.

I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many.

For example:
624+29=624+(30-1).
Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent:
624+(30-1)=624+30-1.

However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example:
653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1

As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem):
653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1

I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

Oops--check the numbers in the last paragraph. It should read "653" not "654" (original problem is 653-29)

Otherwise this letter is a perfect response and course of action.

 

[IDoDis]

My guess is that the teacher is not thinking about her answer and is too caught up in trying to explain/justify the process and therefore she's lost sight of what the complaint is about. Once she figures out that it's not the process that the parent is concerned with and that a calculation mistake is the issue at hand, she is going to feel really embarrassed.

Teachers are constantly having to explain and/or defend the new curriculum. I think this is where the misunderstanding stems from and not from the calculation. We shall see...

 

[myhouseofmouse]

No word on what happened after the parent/teacher meeting?

 

[leebee]

... Laura is standing there doing mental math orally in front of a panel of people, both multiplication and long division iirc. The problems were far longer than anything listed here. This country is going downhill. Yes, we have calculators and cash registers to tell us how much to pay, but it's becoming rare for people to be able to function without them.

I cannot tell you how much I agree with this and how sad it makes me when I realize that people actually don't mind not being able to function independently.

We had CC trainers in the beginning of the year for the new math standards and one of them said, "It doesn't matter if they get the right answer. It's the PROCESS that's important." I was so astounded I asked her if I had understood her correctly, and I did- and right then, I was thankful that my DD is no longer in compulsory education!

All I can say is, good luck explaining "the correct answer doesn't matter" to the bank when your checks start bouncing!!

 

[kt_mom]

Just wait until they make her do lattice!!!

While I agree that different children learn differently, at different rates, I think it confuses EVERYONE when they make them all learn all these different methods. I can't tell you how many kids I teach (resource room for math support) who, when I show them the direct, old fashioned way to do whatever kind of math problem, say, "But that's so easy! Why don't they teach it like that?"

I have two basic problems with the situation in the original post. First... the teachers don't understand what they are being told to teach. If they are using a math program anything like ours (Everyday Math), they have been told that they have to complete the entire program each year, so the kids are prepared to "move on" the next year. This means they are teaching at break neck pace, and don't have time to think or teach... and the kids don't have time to learn. It's crazy, but it meets the requirements and supposedly enables the kids to do well on the standardized tests (HAH!). Secondly, I think it's GREAT to be able to do mental math and estimate/adjust to get the correct answers. However, I think it's more important to teach the BASICS first, and make sure the kids can do it backwards and forwards, before even considering something like this. That the student cannot figure out how to do this worries me... after all, he's a GT kid (I think... did I confuse posters?) and should be able to grasp these concepts if they are being taught correctly.

That lattice method got DH and I last year. DH was so frustrated and kept asking DD why she couldn't just do the problem the "right" way. She couldn't remember exactly how to do the lattice method and it took us forever (and google) to figure it out so we could help her.

What really makes me angry is that they are required to show on tests that they know how to do all these stupid methods. (I think she learned 3 or 4 different ones last year) DD is perfectly capable of multiplying and dividing the old fashioned way but has lost points on tests because she has a hard time with these other methods. She'll have the right answer off to the side where she worked it the traditional way but still lose points because she can't do the one of these new methods.

I know several parents that complained to the teachers and were told that they teach these because not all the kids can do it the traditional way and these other methods help them. But why penalize my kid who can do it the traditional way. I just see too many opportunities for mistakes in these stupid methods that take twice as much time and paper to do.

Sorry, its a just hot topic in our household.

 

[KennesawNemo]

No word on what happened after the parent/teacher meeting?

Hi, just checked,no update in the original post from the parent.

She did sent me a pm over the weekend on the other website. She said she has read the dis thread and are truly grateful for all the suggestions. She especially wanted to thank the one post that wrote a full reply for her.

I will keep DIS posted if there is any update.

 

[KennesawNemo]

The parent PMed me on the other website, asking me to update for her, so here it goes:

My son's GT (gifted class, the kid is in a pull-out gifted class) teacher came out and met with that teacher. It seems that that teacher now finally figured it out. Though so far she never admits to me or my son that she made a mistake.

I met with the Principal this morning and he basically thinks that it was a miscommunication issue (which I disagree). He thinks that my son's teacher is still young and needs time to grow. He was not very happy that I did not go to him for help at the first place. He thought that my son's GT teacher is irrelevant to this issue.

Since he also has a fourth-grade daughter going to that school, I suggest that we let the kids switch teachers since he mentioned that he would love to have his kid taught by that teacher. He said that he would come back to me with his decision tomorrow. (background: the parent wants to change classroom for his son)

On the bright side:

He also agrees that 653-29 = 624 which I am very happy to know. He told me that
he used to be a high school math teacher. ^_^ He also said that the kids would be notified about that misprint on the textbook and that particular "new" strategy will be taught correctly.

He also pointed out that my son was not confused by his teacher. So my son is OK to continue to sit in that class. This is ridiculous!

 

[Robbi]

The parent PMed me on the other website, asking me to update for her, so here it goes:

My son's GT (gifted class, the kid is in a pull-out gifted class) teacher came out and met with that teacher. It seems that that teacher now finally figured it out. Though so far she never admits to me or my son that she made a mistake.

I met with the Principal this morning and he basically thinks that it was a miscommunication issue (which I disagree). He thinks that my son's teacher is still young and needs time to grow. He was not very happy that I did not go to him for help at the first place. He thought that my son's GT teacher is irrelevant to this issue.

Since he also has a fourth-grade daughter going to that school, I suggest that we let the kids switch teachers since he mentioned that he would love to have his kid taught by that teacher. He said that he would come back to me with his decision tomorrow. (background: the parent wants to change classroom for his son)

On the bright side:

He also agrees that 653-29 = 624 which I am very happy to know. He told me that
he used to be a high school math teacher. ^_^ He also said that the kids would be notified about that misprint on the textbook and that particular "new" strategy will be taught correctly.

He also pointed out that my son was not confused by his teacher. So my son is OK to continue to sit in that class. This is ridiculous!

Looks like principal double speak.

 

[disykat]

Although a mistake was made, probably both in the book and on the part of the teacher - I agree that a lot of this was a communication issue.

Just because the principal didn't immediately jump to the huge transition for his own child of switching places with your child doesn't mean he wouldn't want his child in that teacher's class.

 

[IDoDis]

Looks like principal double speak.

Although a mistake was made, probably both in the book and on the part of the teacher - I agree that a lot of this was a communication issue.

Just because the principal didn't immediately jump to the huge transition for his own child of switching places with your child doesn't mean he wouldn't want his child in that teacher's class.

I agree with both of the above statements. I said the same thing in my earlier post. The teacher got so caught up in defending the process that she was not paying attention to the actual numbers. Once she realized that the parent was actually complaining about a calculation error, she probably felt like a dunce (I know I would). Now, does that make her a horrible teacher? Well, probably not. But she does need to work on her listening/communication skills which could impact her teaching. She's young. Hopefully this is a wake-up call for her to not think she's the savior teacher who is going to educate the parents about the better methods used today compared to the the horrible way they learned to add and subtract <sarcasm>.

 

[leebee]

That lattice method got DH and I last year. DH was so frustrated and kept asking DD why she couldn't just do the problem the "right" way. She couldn't remember exactly how to do the lattice method and it took us forever (and google) to figure it out so we could help her.

What really makes me angry is that they are required to show on tests that they know how to do all these stupid methods. (I think she learned 3 or 4 different ones last year) DD is perfectly capable of multiplying and dividing the old fashioned way but has lost points on tests because she has a hard time with these other methods. She'll have the right answer off to the side where she worked it the traditional way but still lose points because she can't do the one of these new methods.

I know several parents that complained to the teachers and were told that they teach these because not all the kids can do it the traditional way and these other methods help them. But why penalize my kid who can do it the traditional way. I just see too many opportunities for mistakes in these stupid methods that take twice as much time and paper to do.

Sorry, its a just hot topic in our household.

I hate lattice, so I hear you! The killer here is that our Common Core trainers told us that in the 11th grade, there is testing associated with CC that requires kids to demonstrate that they can multiply using the STANDARD ALGORITHM. Yup, can't pass the test- or 11th grade- using lattice (even if you get the correct answer). Actually, by the time kids get to pre-algebra, lattice is a terrible handicap most of the time. It takes up WAY too much time to do advanced math via lattice and kids aren't finishing assignments. It's also far too easy to make copy-errors when transferring a lattice problem to an answer sheet, and multiplying by fractions, exponents, etc., gets boggled down. Then there's the whole "not understanding place value" issue, because of course lattice doesn't concern itself with borrowing and carrying 10s, 100s, etc.; you just write the number in the little triangle.

I wish they'd go back to requiring 3rd graders to memorize multiplication facts (through 10s) rather than giving them math "mad minutes" and hoping that eventually the kids will learn something. Seems like a crazy way to do business!

 

[mhsjax]

I hate lattice, so I hear you! The killer here is that our Common Core trainers told us that in the 11th grade, there is testing associated with CC that requires kids to demonstrate that they can multiply using the STANDARD ALGORITHM. Yup, can't pass the test- or 11th grade- using lattice (even if you get the correct answer). Actually, by the time kids get to pre-algebra, lattice is a terrible handicap most of the time. It takes up WAY too much time to do advanced math via lattice and kids aren't finishing assignments. It's also far too easy to make copy-errors when transferring a lattice problem to an answer sheet, and multiplying by fractions, exponents, etc., gets boggled down. Then there's the whole "not understanding place value" issue, because of course lattice doesn't concern itself with borrowing and carrying 10s, 100s, etc.; you just write the number in the little triangle.

I wish they'd go back to requiring 3rd graders to memorize multiplication facts (through 10s) rather than giving them math "mad minutes" and hoping that eventually the kids will learn something. Seems like a crazy way to do business!

Wow, when did they stop requiring 3rd graders to memorize the multiplication tables? My youngest did this 4 years ago. AFter they did the individual tests in front of the teacher, they went to the principal. He kept a list and at the end of the year all the kids who passes got an ice cream party.

I know even when he was in 5th grade his math teacher told the parents that the "new" way of teaching math was crazy and that if they didn't understand it to send her a note. She said that they had to take a class to teach it and that she didn't expect parents to understand the nonsense. I loved her.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Wow, when did they stop requiring 3rd graders to memorize the multiplication tables? My youngest did this 4 years ago. AFter they did the individual tests in front of the teacher, they went to the principal. He kept a list and at the end of the year all the kids who passes got an ice cream party.

I know even when he was in 5th grade his math teacher told the parents that the "new" way of teaching math was crazy and that if they didn't understand it to send her a note. She said that they had to take a class to teach it and that she didn't expect parents to understand the nonsense. I loved her.

My sons both had to memorize them in third grade (currently in fifth and in college). They teach Singapore Math/Math in Focus in our schools and it can be very tricky. I hate lattice and my son does, too; luckily his teacher only made them learn it, but they may use the multiplication method of their choice.

When I was a para I remember four of us teachers and paras sitting down and trying to figure out one of the fifth grade problems because the teacher was stumped and couldn't teach it. It's not easy stuff.

My son is doing ok with a B currently in Math, but it's upsetting him that it's not an A and that he doesn't understand everything right away. Good he experiences that now though, while he's still in elementary school,

 

[gottaluvPluto]

My sons both had to memorize them in third grade (currently in fifth and in college). They teach Singapore Math/Math in Focus in our schools and it can be very tricky. I hate lattice and my son does, too; luckily his teacher only made them learn it, but they may use the multiplication method of their choice.

When I was a para I remember four of us teachers and paras sitting down and trying to figure out one of the fifth grade problems because the teacher was stumped and couldn't teach it. It's not easy stuff.

My son is doing ok with a B currently in Math, but it's upsetting him that it's not an A and that he doesn't understand everything right away. Good he experiences that now though, while he's still in elementary school,

The problem with Singapore Math is a teacher needs to understand math and needs training in the Singapore Method. If she doesn't have these two things then she will have a hard time with the word problems and the geometry. I truly believe, if a district is going to teach the Singapore Method they need to have designated teachers for math. These teachers need to be strong in math so they can correctly teach it. The sad thing is a lot of elementary teachers are not strong in that subject area.

 

[jrmasm]

Wow, when did they stop requiring 3rd graders to memorize the multiplication tables? My youngest did this 4 years ago. AFter they did the individual tests in front of the teacher, they went to the principal. He kept a list and at the end of the year all the kids who passes got an ice cream party.

I know even when he was in 5th grade his math teacher told the parents that the "new" way of teaching math was crazy and that if they didn't understand it to send her a note. She said that they had to take a class to teach it and that she didn't expect parents to understand the nonsense. I loved her.

My daughter is in 4th and was not required to memorize multiplication facts last year. Our district uses Everyday Math and memorizing facts are not part of that program. Memorization of addition and substration are not required either. It is appalling what passes for math these days.

That said, my kid knows her facts because I made her learn them. Counting on your fingers and skip counting are not acceptable in my house after a certain age.

 

[mumto3girls]

My 7th grader and my 4th grader did memorize their multiplication tables in 3rd grade. I still have one to come up through so I hope that doesn't change in our district. I tell my kids that there are many things that they learn in school that they may never see again once the test is over, but math facts are not one of them. They need to know them inside and out and will use them daily in their everyday life.

 

[dismom301930]

My daughter is in 4th and was not required to memorize multiplication facts last year. Our district uses Everyday Math and memorizing facts are not part of that program. Memorization of addition and substration are not required either. It is appalling what passes for math these days.

Our district also uses Everyday Math. My older DDs (currently 6th and 8th grades) still had to memorize multiplication facts in 3rd grade, even though the Everyday Math curriculum did not require it. My DD9 who is in 4th grade was not required to memorize them, and now every time she has a simple multiplication problem she has to "add up" or "count by X's" in her head to figure it out! We started on Flash Cards last week....and she agreed with me because not knowing the facts makes doing the math problems so much more difficult!

 

[jrmasm]

Our district also uses Everyday Math. My older DDs (currently 6th and 8th grades) still had to memorize multiplication facts in 3rd grade, even though the Everyday Math curriculum did not require it. My DD9 who is in 4th grade was not required to memorize them, and now every time she has a simple multiplication problem she has to "add up" or "count by X's" in her head to figure it out! We started on Flash Cards last week....and she agreed with me because not knowing the facts makes doing the math problems so much more difficult!

It's amazing to me that kids understand this but adults don't.