Fourth Grade Math Problem. --Oct 15th updates in post #69

[FergieTCat]

OMG...that is a disgrace. I could see someone making a mistake, but once it was brought to her attention to still think it is right and continue arguing something she could solve with a calculator to see she is wrong. I would be meeting with the principal as well and bringing those emails with. Sad....very, very sad. CC or not, if a person is not intelligent enough to teach it doesn't matter what standards are in place. Maybe these are the type of teachers who benefit from the "scripted" teaching programs I have seen people posting about. It sounds like these teachers need to have a script of what they should be saying to the students.

This!!! (in lieu of a Like button).

That is insane. The teacher should have backed down gracefully when she was shown that she was incorrect. Or used a calculator and then backed down gracefully.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

It's the same issue I had with "estimation" that was taught when my kids were in school. I stand by the fact that kids learn to estimate and to do mental math by knowing how to do the actual math. Those make sense if you know how to actually do the problems.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. If my kids were still young, I would pull them and homeschool or find a program that teaches correctly and not down to the lowest common denominator of students. What idiots came up with this? I'm guessing they weren't math majors. My oldest DS (29 yr old) was a math major and this stuff drives him crazy.

Teaching mental math is actually a great thing. However, the teachers don't understand the concept so they should not be teaching it. It is extremely sad they don't understand mental math because it is easy to understand.

I hope the parent of this 4th grader explains it to the entire 4th grade teachers. If the teachers still think they are right, I would leave. I would then march myself to the office and talk to the principal. And it is SAD we have to have this conversation! I think I'm going to throw up!

 

[DizBelle]

If the parent requested that the teacher use a calculator to determine the answer, what do you think the teacher would say?

Do you think she would argue that the calculator is wrong?

 

[MissManda]

Teacher's Response:

The objective is to use mental math and change place value to the nearest ten in order to do so, not subtract 29 from 653. This was taught within our class extensively and aligns to the ** State Learning Standard 4.NBT.4 which states: The student will add and subtract multi-digit whole numbers using the standard algorithm. The strategy being taught in this section is to mentally add or subtract larger numbers, by taking and giving to make one number end in a ten, hundred or thousand.

Not being within the lesson, it may be hard to see what the students are asked to know. I would love to meet with you sometime to show you what the expectation was for this assignment and a little bit about this curriculum.

While I understand the objective to use mental math and to help make subtraction easier to do in your head, you still have to come up with the right answer, which is obviously 624 and not 622 no matter which way you cut it.

I can't believe this teacher is being so stubborn (at the same time, I'm also a little scared that she really does believe she is right).

Can't wait to see how this turns out.

 

[KBoopaloo]

I use mental math all the time though I don't think it was ever actually taught to me in class.

Having said that, a couple of years ago I was watching my 9 or 10 year old godson one afternoon after school and helping him with his math homework. The system they wanted him to use was incredibly complex for a simple problem. I finally had to tell him, "Listen, I know what the answer is but I have no idea how they want you to get it using this method" and showed him the way I was taught to figure it out. He understood that instantly and said "Why don't they teach us this way? It makes so much more sense!" LOL

 

[luvmy3]

It appears that this teacher and the entire 4th grade team need a few lessons of their own in mental math before they continue teaching it to the students.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

OP, do you know the state this person resides in? I know it doesn't really matter, but I'm curious.

 

[bellarella]

This would be my response:

Dear Teacher,

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly.

I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly.

I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653.

I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many.

For example:
624+29=624+(30-1).
Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent:
624+(30-1)=624+30-1.

However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example:
653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1

As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem):
653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1

I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

 

[KennesawNemo]

OP, do you know the state this person resides in? I know it doesn't really matter, but I'm curious.

Hi, I don't know. The parent hasn't mentioned in her post. I could try to ask.


She did say that the school is rated 8 out 10 on greatschool.com so I wouldn't think it's an under performing school.

 

[KennesawNemo]

This would be my response:

Dear Teacher,

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly.

I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly.

I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653.

I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many.

For example:
624+29=624+(30-1).
Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent:
624+(30-1)=624+30-1.

However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example:
653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1

As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem):
653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1

I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

Thank you!

I have actually given this link to the parent on the other forum. She will have a look. I believe this will help her greatly! She probably won't respond since she doesn't have an account here. I say thank you on behalf of her,

 

[BellePrincessBelle]

This would be my response: Dear Teacher, Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly. I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly. I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653. I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many. For example: 624+29=624+(30-1). Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent: 624+(30-1)=624+30-1. However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example: 653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1 As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem): 653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1 I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

I love this!

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Hi, I don't know. The parent hasn't mentioned in her post. I could try to ask.


She did say that the school is rated 8 out 10 on greatschool.com so I wouldn't think it's an under performing school.

You can have horrible teachers at any school. My youngest DD had 3 uneducated teachers at her school and it was one of the best school is the district.

 

[LAB81018]

I wonder what her response would be if this math was used on her paycheck.

 

[MulingAround]

I use mental math all the time though I don't think it was ever actually taught to me in class.

Having said that, a couple of years ago I was watching my 9 or 10 year old godson one afternoon after school and helping him with his math homework. The system they wanted him to use was incredibly complex for a simple problem. I finally had to tell him, "Listen, I know what the answer is but I have no idea how they want you to get it using this method" and showed him the way I was taught to figure it out. He understood that instantly and said "Why don't they teach us this way? It makes so much more sense!" LOL

Yes! I totally understand what you mean. I was tutoring an 11 yr old and when I watched her 'method', I got lost! Way too complicated for a simple problem. Showed her the way I was taught and just like your godson, she caught on instantly.
They need to simplify.

 

[KennesawNemo]

Yes! I totally understand what you mean. I was tutoring an 11 yr old and when I watched her 'method', I got lost! Way too complicated for a simple problem. Showed her the way I was taught and just like your godson, she caught on instantly.
They need to simplify.

I can't agree more. I can't listen to DS8's teacher talking about math on parents' night. It's just painful and while I don't fight the teacher's method, when I help DS with homework at home, I totally go my way.

I don't blame the teach. I blame the curriculum. It's sad.

 

[nugov2]

This would be my response:

Dear Teacher,

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but I am sure you care as much as I do that the children are learning the foundations correctly.

I understand that the new math curriculum has resulted in a lot of confusion from the parents and that you would assume that my comment was related to not understanding a "different" method of instruction. In this case, however, I do understand the mental math strategy and just wanted to make sure it is being taught correctly.

I know we both agree that 653-29=624; just as we both agree that 624+29=653.

I also understand the concept of using round numbers (in this case, 30). The method you have described is correct for addition, but not subtraction. When rounding up in addition one must, as you indicated, then subtract from the result, since you have added one too many.

For example:
624+29=624+(30-1).
Further, because this is an addition problem, the following are also equivalent:
624+(30-1)=624+30-1.

However, when you round up in a subtraction problem, you have taken away one too many and, therefore, your number is one smaller than it should be. To get the correct result in a subtraction problem of this sort, you must add one, not subtract one. For example:
653-29=653-(30-1)=653-30+1

As I am sure you are aware, the following are not equivalent -- which is why the explanation you hastened to give me actually doesn't work in this case (or any subtraction problem):
653-(30-1) =/= 653-30-1

I understand that your days are busy and a room of 4th graders can be distracting. If you would still like to meet about this problem, I am happy to, but I would like to involve the principal in the discussion as well. If the 4th grade team agrees that our district's math program is intending to teach children that 654-29=622 and that 654-(30-1) is equivalent to 654-30-1, I'm sure you will agree that we need to escalate the issue. I will be happy to assist your team in any way to assure that we aren't miseducating the children at this very formative stage.

great response. I would love to hear what happens. This issue is very disturbing to me. If that was my child and they insist it is right(even the principal) I would be speaking at a board meeting. So there new teaching method is teaching children that the answers to math for as long as it has been being taught is actually wrong? I agree with the poster who said to ask her if she would like this new math applied to her paycheck.

 

[KennesawNemo]

great response. I would love to hear what happens. This issue is very disturbing to me. If that was my child and they insist it is right(even the principal) I would be speaking at a board meeting. So there new teaching method is teaching children that the answers to math for as long as it has been being taught is actually wrong? I agree with the poster who said to ask her if she would like this new math applied to her paycheck.

Here is a small update from the parent:

I will meet with the school counselor first (we just had a new principal this semester. I don't really know him well.) I also forwarded all the email communications to my son's GT teacher. He will also look into it. I will then forward everything to the principal and ask to transfer to a different room. (I personally cannot believe all fourth grader teachers agree with her.) Will keep you guys updated later next week.

 

[LilyWDW]

This is an issue with the teacher NOT with the way things are taught. The teacher is the person who can't seem to figure it out. The math concept is solid and easy to understand in this case.

 

[nugov2]

Here is a small update from the parent:

I will meet with the school counselor first (we just had a new principal this semester. I don't really know him well.) I also forwarded all the email communications to my son's GT teacher. He will also look into it. I will then forward everything to the principal and ask to transfer to a different room. (I personally cannot believe all fourth grader teachers agree with her.) Will keep you guys updated later next week.

Thanks for the update. I will be checking back to see what happens next week. I hope for the kids sake they realize their error.

 

[FergieTCat]

Here is a small update from the parent:

I will meet with the school counselor first (we just had a new principal this semester. I don't really know him well.) I also forwarded all the email communications to my son's GT teacher. He will also look into it. I will then forward everything to the principal and ask to transfer to a different room. (I personally cannot believe all fourth grader teachers agree with her.) Will keep you guys updated later next week.

All the fourth grade teachers agree it doesn't matter if you come up with the wrong answer as long as you grasp the concept? In math? Where there is usually only one right answer to each equation? (As far as I know; if it's different for higher math, don't tell me. I practically failed calculus and will not understand a word you are saying).

All I can say is "Wow."