Creationism museum to be protested...

[dannyh23]

Do you know anyone who has NEVER sinned? I don't.

While not directed to me, actually I have -- I personally knew a few babies that have died for some reason unknown to science after their birth.

 

[Buckalew11]

Like you said futher up Buckalew, Jenny and I and every one of us on the planet are all free to think what we want... Perhaps that for some reason we do not understand, the evidence in old or new books (or lack thereof) -- or the way "feel" in our hearts -- or the way we look at the beauty of nature -- speaks differently to each of us.

... and there *has* to be a reason why despite the millions that were killed in Jesus' name during the crusades, that hundreds of millions of people alive today believe in say, hinduism.

But... I won't ever condemn someone to hell because they don't believe in what I believe that my book says... and I think we both agree on that

I did say that and I meant it. We're all free to choose...free to think what we want. I just hope one has come to peace with his decision because IMHO, it is the most important decision of your life. I believe you make the choice of who you will serve and where you will spend forever.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I did say that and I meant it. We're all free to choose...free to think what we want. I just hope one has come to peace with his decision because IMHO, it is the most important decision of your life. I believe you make the choice of who you will serve and where you will spend forever.

I understand that's how you see it... That's not how many other religions see it..lots of them don't tie belief to heaven or Hell..I do understand why it's such a big deal to you(Christian) because it does have those sorts of ramifications..

 

[jimmiej]

From the start, why did an all-knowing and all-powerful god require us to kill some of his own creations to "please" him? Further, why did an all-knowing and all-powerful god require himself to "kill himself" to "save" some of us, but condemn the rest?

The Creator makes the rules for the creation.

God created man perfect (in His image). He gave man free will so He would know who chose/loved Him back. From the beginning, man rebelled (sin). The relationship was severed. Hence, a sacrifice is needed.

 

[Buckalew11]

I understand that's how you see it... That's not how many other religions see it..lots of them don't tie belief to heaven or Hell..I do understand why it's such a big deal to you(Christian) because it does have those sorts of ramifications..

Exactly. Because life is short and forever is...well...forever. It is a big deal for that reason and the reason of having a relationship to God while I am here on this short journey.

 

[jimmiej]

While not directed to me, actually I have -- I personally knew a few babies that have died for some reason unknown to science after their birth.

The Bible intimates we must come to an understanding of our need for a savior.

Those you describe would be unable to understand.

 

[dannyh23]

I understand that's how you see it... That's not how many other religions see it..lots of them don't tie belief to heaven or Hell..I do understand why it's such a big deal to you(Christian) because it does have those sorts of ramifications..

Agreed!

I think that same "ideal" (for lack of a better word) is why so many christians feel they have to "save" those of us that don't believe exactly what they believe. From my person experience, many protestant christians believe that Catholic christians aren't "saved" and will be burning forever in a giant lake of fire... even though many, many Catholics believe in Jesus dying for their sins just as strongly as they do...

 

[dannyh23]

The Bible intimates we must come to an understanding of our need for a savior. Those you describe would be unable to understand.

I just answered the question as you asked. I know babies that haven't sinned. They didn't lie to me, steal things, or murder anyone.

I hope they get to go to heaven, regardless of that "original sin" concept! I also hope they get a chance to come back and experience a full life here on Earth!!!

 

[jenfur]

dannyh23- for a better synopsis of why we were created if (insert reason here) - read Job. On a smaller scale it is like asking why you have children. They aren't going to listen to you, at times they will hate you, but you love them anyway. God did not create other little Gods, he created humans who could never be as perfect as He is. There are a multitude of angels in heaven which bear witness to all things that have occurred since earth's inception. The process by which God has given us free will and has redeemed us to himself by allowing us to be made perfect through the Jesus is a testament to his glory. A phrase I have always liked is "he paid a debt he did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay." Because of this, when we accept our inperfection, our propensity to sin and realize that we need God in our lives and desire a relationship with Him, we do so through recognizing our need to become sinless once more. Christ has made that possible through His death and resurrection. We still struggle with sin, but we are not slaves to it any longer (read Romans chapter 7), we have been redeemed. Once we are with God we will be perfect just as Christ is perfect.

As for the confusion, the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion. You can thank Satan and the pride of men for that. Another thing worth mentioning, just because some have claimed to be fighting for Jesus (ie Crusades) does not mean that God gave them the okay. See-MAT 7:21-23; Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


These are just a few verses that have come to mind while browsing this thread. Fellow Christians enjoy:

1CO 1:26-29; Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

PSA 10:4 In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts
there is no room for God.

MAT 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake
the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Kath2003]

I think some of you non-believers, while trying to understand Christianity, are approaching it from the wrong direction. You have to understand the real reason Jesus came.

We (all mankind) are sinful. Because of our sin, we have been seperated from a Holy God. In the OT, God required a (animal) blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. We believe Jesus was/the ultimate & final blood sacrifice. If we believe & accept this, the Bible says God "remembers ours sins no more." At that point, we begin an eternal relationship with God through Christ & are now righteous in His eyes.

The hard part of that scenario is accepting that our best is as "filthy rags" to God. Most, if not all of us feel like we're a good person. Jesus said there is "none righteous."

You have to come to an understanding of your sin & how it seperates you from God if you want to have a relationship with Him.

But again, you first have to start believeing in SOMETHING - in this case, that everyone is sinful. That, in my mind, doesn't compute, therefore I cannot believe in it.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in this subject, Christian or not, you should read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He was an atheist, but became a Christian. It's a powerful book!

It is indeed a good book; however I read it at the time that I went the opposite direction!

You know what, if God is all loving and all powerful, why allow sin? Even if he's still the jealous type who rejects anyone who doesn't worship him, why create and maintain the existance of sin? What purpose does it serve? Seriously, what the heck's he trying to achieve?

 

[salmoneous]

For anyone who's genuinely interested in this subject, Christian or not, you should read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He was an atheist, but became a Christian. It's a powerful book!

As a side note - C. S. Lewis had ideas about Christianity and salvation that are quite different from what many evangelicals believe. A famous quote:

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it ... For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position"

 

[Saxsoon]

As a side note - C. S. Lewis had ideas about Christianity and salvation that are quite different from what many evangelicals believe. A famous quote:

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it ... For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position"

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Lewis was stating that God was using these other religions and aspects that align closely to Christianity in hopes to bring them closer to Christianity.

 

[salmoneous]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Lewis was stating that God was using these other religions and aspects that align closely to Christianity in hopes to bring them closer to Christianity.

Part of a larger philosophy that Lewis wrote about - but he is saying that Jesus could 'save' somebody without them even knowing it. Bringing them to God, but not necessarily to Christianity.

 

[dannyh23]

dannyh23- for a better synopsis of why we were created if (insert reason here) - read Job. On a smaller scale it is like asking why you have children. They aren't going to listen to you, at times they will hate you, but you love them anyway. God did not create other little Gods, he created humans who could never be as perfect as He is. There are a multitude of angels in heaven which bear witness to all things that have occurred since earth's inception. The process by which God has given us free will and has redeemed us to himself by allowing us to be made perfect through the Jesus is a testament to his glory. A phrase I have always liked is "he paid a debt he did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay." Because of this, when we accept our inperfection, our propensity to sin and realize that we need God in our lives and desire a relationship with Him, we do so through recognizing our need to become sinless once more. Christ has made that possible through His death and resurrection. We still struggle with sin, but we are not slaves to it any longer (read Romans chapter 7), we have been redeemed. Once we are with God we will be perfect just as Christ is perfect.

Hello again Jenfur! Had to read that few times to get it all... I do understand I am imperfect -- we all are! I believe most of us on the planet want to be better people, and are looking for answers, but I still don't understand why we all *have* to believe in Jesus? Why would God setup a rule that says I better believe in God/Jesus or else I'm going to hell?

Especially when most on the planet are NOT christians. One could say he did a very bad job explaining himself/making him self known today due to that fact.

As for the confusion, the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion. You can thank Satan and the pride of men for that.

Actually, I think some could blame God for that. God *knew* from the start that confusion would occur. God could have prevented it -- after all, he created everthing and knew how everything is, was, and ever shall be, right? Did he want everything to be confusing for us on purpose?

Another thing worth mentioning, just because some have claimed to be fighting for Jesus (ie Crusades) does not mean that God gave them the okay.

I believe some would say the same exact thing for Jerry Falwell and the Creationist Museum/Church. I believe the Crusaders really thought they were doing God's will. I believe the abortion clinic bombers really believe they are doing God's will too.

Thank you for taking the time to reply -- lots of others just ignore, pick fights, or tell us how us unbelievers are going to hell. My questions weren't meant to attack you and/or your faith. Just showing you maybe why I and others have a hard time with some of these big concepts...

 

[jimmiej]

Part of a larger philosophy that Lewis wrote about - but he is saying that Jesus could 'save' somebody without them even knowing it. Bringing them to God, but not necessarily to Christianity.

I believe you are correct in your assessment of this particular passage in the final chapter of Mere Christianity. I must say though, this appears to be at odds with the Great Commission given to us by Christ just prior to His ascension. It's certainly something to ponder though.

 

[jimmiej]

One could say he did a very bad job explaining himself/making him self known today due to that fact.

Did he want everything to be confusing for us on purpose?

When something is difficult, people react in different ways. Some never try. Others start out but give up quickly. Others work hard & eventually accomplish the goal. This is basically what Jesus was telling us about the Kingdom of God in Matthew 13.

3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

 

[salmoneous]

I must say though, this appears to be at odds with the Great Commission given to us by Christ just prior to His ascension.

Notice that there are several versions of the Great Commission in the Bible. IIRC the bit about "non-believers being condemned" is only in one of them? Why do you think that is?

Also, note that you make very particular assumptions about what Mark means by "believers" and by "condemned." If you interpret those words differently, CL Lewis' believes are in no way inconsistent with the Bible. And as I've mentioned before - if you think the passage in Mark is drawing a line between believers who get to heaven, and everyone else who are all going to hell, read how we will know who is a believer and who isn't.

If it were true that everybody who didn't hear the name Jesus and make a conscious decision to follow him would burn in an everlasting hell, that's a very serious bit of philosophy - something you would want to be front and center. Instead, throughout a very long Bible, it doesn't appear. However, there is one verse that seems to say it, if you give the words particular meanings. Doesn't seem right to me? Why would God obscure such an important message?

 

[Buckalew11]

Part of a larger philosophy that Lewis wrote about - but he is saying that Jesus could 'save' somebody without them even knowing it. Bringing them to God, but not necessarily to Christianity.

Hmm. I have never read this book although I have heard of it forever. Anyway, this is what I also believe and tried to state on this or some other thread around here this week.

I believe this because God knows people's hearts and what is in their heart. I believe if you are worshipping a false god and in your heart aren't searching for the God, He will know it.

I think we have to be very careful though, not to lead people astray allowing them to think maybe they have it right with God when indeed they may not. I think a lot of it will be your opportunities to hear and come to Him. To hope that you've done enough good, tried to be the best you could, etc. (is all admirable) but if you are excluding God or a power higher than you that you do not call God or even know to call God, would be too risky (imho) to put your hope in.

However, I think God will be merciful to those you deep in their hearts are trying to search for Him and just don't know exactly what they are doing. I think He created us with a void that only He can fill and I think He looks at that void and sees what we tried to fill it with and He'll know our hearts and intentions.

Thanks for sharing that about Mere Christianity. I really would like to read it.

 

[dannyh23]

However, I think God will be merciful to those you deep in their hearts are trying to search for Him and just don't know exactly what they are doing. I think He created us with a void that only He can fill and I think He looks at that void and sees what we tried to fill it with and He'll know our hearts and intentions.

 

[jimmiej]

Notice that there are several versions of the Great Commission in the Bible. IIRC the bit about "non-believers being condemned" is only in one of them? Why do you think that is?

Also, note that you make very particular assumptions about what Mark means by "believers" and by "condemned." If you interpret those words differently, CL Lewis' believes are in no way inconsistent with the Bible. And as I've mentioned before - if you think the passage in Mark is drawing a line between believers who get to heaven, and everyone else who are all going to hell, read how we will know who is a believer and who isn't.

If it were true that everybody who didn't hear the name Jesus and make a conscious decision to follow him would burn in an everlasting hell, that's a very serious bit of philosophy - something you would want to be front and center. Instead, throughout a very long Bible, it doesn't appear. However, there is one verse that seems to say it, if you give the words particular meanings. Doesn't seem right to me? Why would God obscure such an important message?

My point about the Great Commission was, we're commanded to go into ALL the world preaching the good news to everyone. Christians missionaries have been doing exactly that for hundreds of years. That just seems to me to be at odds with Lewis' take on those of other religions & their similarities with Christianity. Maybe it all works together.

The Scripture does make reference to the fact that God has revealed Himself to the world.

Romans 1:19-21

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I think what Brenda said is right on the money:

I believe this because God knows people's hearts and what is in their heart. I believe if you are worshipping a false god and in your heart aren't searching for the God, He will know it.

I think we have to be very careful though, not to lead people astray allowing them to think maybe they have it right with God when indeed they may not. I think a lot of it will be your opportunities to hear and come to Him. To hope that you've done enough good, tried to be the best you could, etc. (is all admirable) but if you are excluding God or a power higher than you that you do not call God or even know to call God, would be too risky (imho) to put your hope in.
However, I think God will be merciful to those you deep in their hearts are trying to search for Him and just don't know exactly what they are doing. I think He created us with a void that only He can fill and I think He looks at that void and sees what we tried to fill it with and He'll know our hearts and intentions.