Creationism museum to be protested...

[Buckalew11]

Then why evangelise? Why are 2/3 of the world NOT Christian? Why would God allow over half the opulatiojn to be misled, and then punish them for it?



I do disagree. I believe that if your God is as loving and forgiving and all knowing and all powerful as you claim he is, he KNOWS why I can't believe in him. Further, if he is the creator of all things, he created the doubt in me that makes me unable to believe not only in him but any other diety.

Hypocrites are everywhere. It's unfortunate that they are more obvious to spot in a religious setting Sadly I would say honestly that about half the religious people I know are hypocrites. I do not judge everyone who follows that religion by them, however. I do think that if people don't have their eyes open to see the "bigger picture" that a few bad apples can easily taint your whole bunch, however.



And likewise, I am peace with what I believe (i.e. in nothing).

I think we evangelize to share the love of God and Jesus with them. To share in the here and now. Having God in your life can be a wonderful part of living in this world. I realize you disagree with that, and I am cool with that. But, for some "to live is Christ" and it makes a huge difference in our every day lives.
God allows it because He gives us a choice. He will not force anyone to love, worship and honor Him. 2/3 of the world choosing differently is their choice and I feel sure it grieves Him.

I am not sure what to say about one's inability to believe. If I ask too many questions it would come off disrespectful to someone and I do not wish to come off that way. I do believe the Bible tells us if we seek we will find, ask for help to believe and it will be given to you. But, that whole thing is strictly between you and God (if what I believe is true in the end) and He would know your heart. If there is no God, then your inability to believe won't be an issue, of course.

Hypocrites are everywhere. I've been one myself, more than once. And I go to a church that houses them. We're imperfect which makes us hypocritical. It looks worse within the church. But, as you said, they are everywhere.

I am glad you have found peace in your decision. For me, that is the most important decision of anyone's life. I do worry about those who do not have that peace with their decision on the matter. Everyone should be "good" with their choice.

 

[Kath2003]

God allows it because He gives us a choice. He will not force anyone to love, worship and honor Him. 2/3 of the world choosing differently is their choice and I feel sure it grieves Him.

If God is all knowing, he knows who will choose him and who will reject him even before they are born, so how can people have free will over their actions when they are already known by God? Also: if he is the creator of everything, why would he create people who will reject him?

I am not sure what to say about one's inability to believe. If I ask too many questions it would come off disrespectful to someone and I do not wish to come off that way.

Feel free to ask.

I do believe the Bible tells us if we seek we will find, ask for help to believe and it will be given to you. But, that whole thing is strictly between you and God (if what I believe is true in the end) and He would know your heart. If there is no God, then your inability to believe won't be an issue, of course.

But of course, if you don't believe in God to start with, why would you believe the Bible? For atheists and even agnostics this is the vicious circle - if you believe in nothing, you have to start believing in SOMETHING to start believing in anything - but where do you start? Why should you believe any of it?

 

[Buckalew11]

If God is all knowing, he knows who will choose him and who will reject him even before they are born, so how can people have free will over their actions when they are already known by God? Also: if he is the creator of everything, why would he create people who will reject him?



Feel free to ask.



But of course, if you don't believe in God to start with, why would you believe the Bible? For atheists and even agnostics this is the vicious circle - if you believe in nothing, you have to start believing in SOMETHING to start believing in anything - but where do you start? Why should you believe any of it?

I'll be honest in saying that I can't answer your first question. I believe God does know who comes to know Him and who doesn't because he does know all things and knows how His plan for this world will pan out. I still think the choice is ours even though He knows the outcome. It doesn't mean He controls our decision, just that in the end, He knows who will believe in Him and who will not. Then, I think we get into the topic of election which I have never delve into. I remember jimmiej saying he believes in it and his wife doesn't so it is that type of issue within Christianity. I do not know enough about it to talk about it.

I'm really afraid to ask. If I ask the wrong question, or it is just taken wrong by someone, it would be devastating to me. I really can't go there--although I will tell you I have never talked with anyone who does not believe that gave me that reason in RL. I've seen you say it here before and maybe another, but it is not any kind of issue that I have ever talked over with someone before so I would naturally love to know your thoughts.

I realize I use the Bible for that guide and one who doesn't believe doesn't use it as a spiritual guide so it seems pointless to them. However, I want some basis for my beliefs and that is where I go for answers. Pulling them out of my ear doesn't go to far with me. How I feel about will not matter in the end. It is how God feels about it that does, IMHO, and therefore, I feel like if I base my beliefs on my ideas and what I like to hear, it would be totally misleading you and anyone else.
And yes, I think you are right about the vicious cycle. I think that is when you have to decide to give God a chance or not. Talk with Him from an unbelieving heart asking for help to believe. Small steps is what I would think. Even recognizing that there is a power greater than yourself out there, maybe. I think you'd have to start somewhere. It would only take a spark to possibly get a fire going.

 

[Kath2003]

II'm really afraid to ask. If I ask the wrong question, or it is just taken wrong by someone, it would be devastating to me. I really can't go there--although I will tell you I have never talked with anyone who does not believe that gave me that reason in RL. I've seen you say it here before and maybe another, but it is not any kind of issue that I have ever talked over with someone before so I would naturally love to know your thoughts.

That's sad. If you want to ask anything, please PM me. I won't take offense at anything and will answer you honestly.

And yes, I think you are right about the vicious cycle. I think that is when you have to decide to give God a chance or not. Talk with Him from an unbelieving heart asking for help to believe. Small steps is what I would think. Even recognizing that there is a power greater than yourself out there, maybe. I think you'd have to start somewhere. It would only take a spark to possibly get a fire going.

And what about those who feel that they have given God enough time, energy and worry in their life and are still unable to believe anything? Of course, the typical answer is that those people are unopen and simply "aren't trying to hear God". THAT is insulting, but we just smile and move on (I know you didn't say it! ).

 

[Buckalew11]

That's sad. If you want to ask anything, please PM me. I won't take offense at anything and will answer you honestly.



And what about those who feel that they have given God enough time, energy and worry in their life and are still unable to believe anything? Of course, the typical answer is that those people are unopen and simply "aren't trying to hear God". THAT is insulting, but we just smile and move on (I know you didn't say it! ).

But I think many of those people are trying to hear God so that would be unfair. Surely if they are searching, they are listening. I am wondering what you mean when you say "enough time, energy and worry in their life"? I am not sure what those things actually mean.

BTW, thanks for being so open and kind.

 

[Kath2003]

But I think many of those people are trying to hear God so that would be unfair. Surely if they are searching, they are listening. I am wondering what you mean when you say "enough time, energy and worry in their life"? I am not sure what those things actually mean.

BTW, thanks for being so open and kind.

No worries. If you wanna discuss further, PM me. I'll even give you my MSN address if you wanna talk in real-time. I'm not a big bad atheist, I'm never offended by anything and I'm on the other side of the Atlantic anyway, so even if you did wind me up I couldn't come get ya!

 

[Buckalew11]

No worries. If you wanna discuss further, PM me. I'll even give you my MSN address if you wanna talk in real-time. I'm not a big bad atheist, I'm never offended by anything and I'm on the other side of the Atlantic anyway, so even if you did wind me up I couldn't come get ya!

Thanks, I may just PM you. I have to go feed my family now. Good to know you can't come and "get" me! I'm betting I love your accent so I wish I could hear you instead of just read ya!

 

[Kath2003]

Thanks, I may just PM you. I have to go feed my family now. Good to know you can't come and "get" me! I'm betting I love your accent so I wish I could hear you instead of just read ya!

But of course. Anyway, tis cucumber sandwiches and Earl Grey time...

 

[jimmiej]

I think some of you non-believers, while trying to understand Christianity, are approaching it from the wrong direction. You have to understand the real reason Jesus came.

We (all mankind) are sinful. Because of our sin, we have been seperated from a Holy God. In the OT, God required a (animal) blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. We believe Jesus was/the ultimate & final blood sacrifice. If we believe & accept this, the Bible says God "remembers ours sins no more." At that point, we begin an eternal relationship with God through Christ & are now righteous in His eyes.

The hard part of that scenario is accepting that our best is as "filthy rags" to God. Most, if not all of us feel like we're a good person. Jesus said there is "none righteous."

You have to come to an understanding of your sin & how it seperates you from God if you want to have a relationship with Him.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in this subject, Christian or not, you should read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He was an atheist, but became a Christian. It's a powerful book!

 

[willis37862]

Those poor athiests. I didn't know they cared.

They can go to a zoo for their museum.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I think some of you non-believers, while trying to understand Christianity, are approaching it from the wrong direction. You have to understand the real reason Jesus came.

We (all mankind) are sinful. Because of our sin, we have been seperated from a Holy God. In the OT, God required a (animal) blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. We believe Jesus was/the ultimate & final blood sacrifice. If we believe & accept this, the Bible says God "remembers ours sins no more." At that point, we begin an eternal relationship with God through Christ & are now righteous in His eyes.

The hard part of that scenario is accepting that our best is as "filthy rags" to God. Most, if not all of us feel like we're a good person. Jesus said there is "none righteous."

You have to come to an understanding of your sin & how it seperates you from God if you want to have a relationship with Him.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in this subject, Christian or not, you should read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He was an atheist, but became a Christian. It's a powerful book!

I just have to come in here and reiterate the Jewish POV.. We are not born sinners. We can choose not to sin..Blood Sacrifice is not needed for the forgiveness of sins. In fact for Jews blood sacrifices were just one way to atone for one specific type of sin, unintentional sins against G-d..There is no need for a savior or the death of anyone on a cross as there is no Hell or eternal damnation in Judaism..One does not have to be Jewish to have a place in the world to come. In fact the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come.
Also I'm not an unbeliever. I just don't believe what Christians believe and I don't believe in a G-d who condemns people to eternal damnation for simply believing something different.

 

[Buckalew11]

"we can choose not to sin"...

oh, if it were only that easy. I remember as a kid thinking, "that darned ol' Eve". And yet, I have committed a sin everyday of my life.

 

[JennyMominRI]

"we can choose not to sin"...

oh, if it were only that easy. I remember as a kid thinking, "that darned ol' Eve". And yet, I have committed a sin everyday of my life.

But you never choose not to sin? You can.. Judaism really does not view sin the same way Christianity does..It's more like *missing the mark*..And it doesn't lead to eternal damnation or separation from G-d...He made us the way we are and does not condemn us for it

 

[dannyh23]

I think some of you non-believers, while trying to understand Christianity, are approaching it from the wrong direction. You have to understand the real reason Jesus came.

We (all mankind) are sinful. Because of our sin, we have been seperated from a Holy God. In the OT, God required a (animal) blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. We believe Jesus was/the ultimate & final blood sacrifice. If we believe & accept this, the Bible says God "remembers ours sins no more." At that point, we begin an eternal relationship with God through Christ & are now righteous in His eyes.

I will agree with you that we all sin.... but, the rest of you said is why some of us have problems with that story...

From the start, why did an all-knowing and all-powerful god require us to kill some of his own creations to "please" him? Further, why did an all-knowing and all-powerful god require himself to "kill himself" to "save" some of us, but condemn the rest?

If God knew he was going to kill himself from the start, where's the real "sacrifice"? Further, why even set up such a scenario except to cause mass confusion?

The whole story basically sounds like this, it's my own summary, so maybe some parts are "wrong" according to you... but this is why I and many other have their doubts about an all-knowing, all-loving God who sends people to hell that don't believe that Jesus died for our sins....

"Ok I'm God -- I'm going to create a huge universe, and on one little planet on it I'm going to make a bunch of animals and plants and people -- oh, and I'm going to make the people imperfect and sin on purpose from the start of this world. I'm going to create an "evil side" that I already know will tempt my creations into doing "bad things", and I'll send those people to hell, another place I created with eternal torture and fire. I know that I'll create BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, and I'll create a bunch of other scientific evidence that goes against what this book that some day I'll inspire some people to write down. Later they can fight amongst themselves about what they think the book means. One day I'm going to wipe everything out and start over (except one special family and two or seven pairs of everything) -- then a bit later I'll let them kill each other for awhile fighting over me and other pretend gods that I already know a lot of them will believe in. Of course the point of wiping everything out will be to get rid of all the sinners, but somehow the sin still gets back -- so really I don't know why I wiped it all out, but there must have been some reason.

Then later I'll send myself down and kill myself to make them all realize they better believe in me -- but -- I'll continue to allow other religions to exist and allow billions of other people to believe in those and they will never get to be with me. One day I know some people are going to invent computers and the internet and the dis boards -- and they will continue to fight amongst themselves there too. I'll create a bunch of bad things that will kill people at random like hurricanes, tornados, cancer, famines, AIDS, etc. I'll also allow lots of other people to be persecuted -- maybe because they are Jewish, or simply because for some reason I also let them be attracted to people of the same sex. I'll make some different skin colors so they can kill each other because of that too.

Then someday I'll come back down and blow everything up, but those that still really believed in me and worshipped me with their whole heart and soul -- well I'll let come and live with me -- and the rest can go to hell."

Of course you see the story a different way -- he/she is a loving God, but you have to admit, the story doesn't sound that way to many people....

 

[Buckalew11]

But you never choose not to sin? You can.. Judaism really does not view sin the same way Christianity does..It's more like *missing the mark*..And it doesn't lead to eternal damnation or separation from G-d...He made us the way we are and does not condemn us for it

Sure I choose not to sin. Everyday. And then again, every day I also sin. I'm just saying...you make it sound like one can live life and never sin, IF you so choose.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I read the OT entirely different than you do and because of that, there just isn't much to say on this topic.

Oh and danny, I read your post after Jenny's. That is one different way of looking at it...and it sounds 'tricky' to me.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Sure I choose not to sin. Everyday. And then again, every day I also sin. I'm just saying...you make it sound like one can live life and never sin, IF you so choose.

I

Sure they can. I don't think it happens often though .But we probaly have different ideas about what sin is

 

[jimmiej]

Sure they can. I don't think it happens often though .But we probaly have different ideas about what sin is

Do you know anyone who has NEVER sinned? I don't.

 

[dannyh23]

Sure I choose not to sin. Everyday. And then again, every day I also sin. I'm just saying...you make it sound like one can live life and never sin, IF you so choose.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I read the OT entirely different than you do and because of that, there just isn't much to say on this topic.

Like you said futher up Buckalew, Jenny and I and every one of us on the planet are all free to think what we want... Perhaps that for some reason we do not understand, the evidence in old or new books (or lack thereof) -- or the way "feel" in our hearts -- or the way we look at the beauty of nature -- speaks differently to each of us.

... and there *has* to be a reason why despite the millions that were killed in Jesus' name during the crusades, that hundreds of millions of people alive today believe in say, hinduism.

But... I won't ever condemn someone to hell because they don't believe in what I believe that my book says... and I think we both agree on that

 

[JennyMominRI]

Do you know anyone who has NEVER sinned? I don't.

And if we don't , If we sin, We repent, we ask for forgiveness(teshuvah) and we get on with our lives. G-d is merciful and he forgives us if we truly repent..No blood sacrifice of any kind is neccessary..

 

[Buckalew11]

Sure they can. I don't think it happens often though .But we probaly have different ideas about what sin is

Well, we probably do have different ideas. I have never known anyone who has lived and has not sinned (and was not a child or childlike).

Oh and yes, God is merciful and forgives us (when we are truly sorry and repentant) and we go on also.